Norwood Junction to London Terminals season ticket - NWD to Victoria via East Croydon

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razasis

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I have an annual season ticket for Norwood Junction to London Terminals. I want to do two things:

  1. Travel to Victoria via East Croydon
  2. Travel to East Croydon
I've done both before and never had a problem until today, when the chap on the gate at East Croydon told me that I wasn't allowed to leave. We debated for a while, and then he took me to a desk where a second chap agreed with him and also said that I wasn't allowed to carry on to Victoria - he invited me to try and enjoy the £20 penalty fare. Not to be deterred, I showed my ticket to a different chap at the gates who let me through - I even pointed out to him how I thought the ticket was valid (NWD to VIC with a break in journey at ECR).

Back at Norwood Junction I asked the man on the desk and was told that I could travel to Victoria via ECR but couldn't leave there. Then I spent some time with the routeing guide and based on that I think that I'm not allowed to do any of it, since ECR - VIC is dearer than NWD - VIC.

So in summary

  • 3 people (me and two at ECR) think that I can't do either
  • 1 person (at NWD) thinks I can do 1. but not 2.
  • 1 person (at ECR) thinks I can do 2. and therefore presumably 1.
It seems to be commonly accepted that I can break the journey at any intermediate station so I can't see how the NWD advice can be correct. Can anyone sort me out?

Thanks very much,
Alex
 
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steamybrian

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East Croydon is NOT an intermediate station between Norwood Jn and Victoria.
You have answered it by saying East Croydon to London is dearer therefore not allowed into East Croydon (for any journey) with a Norwood Jn to London ticket.
 

razasis

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Hmm. Thanks for your reply Brian. I was just about to update my post to say that I'd changed my mind, based on the Croydon route being less than 3 miles longer than the direct route. Doesn't this bypass the fare check rule becausing I'm not even using a routeing point etc, but travelling by the shortest plus 3 miles? Or does it not apply here?

Thanks again,
Alex
 

steamybrian

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The view I take is that their are many different routes going north from Norwood Jn to London and they possibly vary by THREE MILES in distance.
What you are trying to do is go SOUTH first which is basically off route.
 

John @ home

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I'd changed my mind, based on the Croydon route being less than 3 miles longer than the direct route.
Is it? My calculations are:

Norwood Jn - London Victoria: Distances

via Herne Hill
Norwood Jn - Tulse Hill: 3.75 miles (Table 177)
Tulse Hill - Herne Hill: 1 mile (Table 179)
Herne Hill - Victoria: 4 miles (Table 195)
Total 8.75 miles

via Streatham Hill
Norwood Jn - Streatham Hill - Victoria: 10.25 miles (Table 177)
Total 10.25 miles

via East Croydon & Norbury
Norwood Jn - East Croydon: 1.75 miles (Table 177)
East Croydon - Norbury - Victoria: 10.5 miles (Table 177)
Total 12.25 miles

EDIT
I've just noticed that the National Rail Timetable gives:
Norwood Jn to Tulse Hill: 3.25 miles (Table 177 page 142)
Tulse Hill to Norwood Jn: 3.75 miles (Table 177 page 1)

If this were the case, then Norwood Jn - London Victoria via East Croydon & Norbury would not be a Permitted Route, but London Victoria - Norwood Jn via Norbury & East Croydon would be exactly 3 miles longer than the shortest route and therefore a Permitted Route. But other distances in Table 177 convince me that the 3.25 miles figure is a typo, and that Norwood Jn - London Victoria via East Croydon & Norbury is not a Permitted Route by the 3-mile rule.

My calculations do suggest, however, that Norwood Jn - Vauxhall via East Croydon & Norbury is a Permitted Route by the 3-mile rule.
 
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swt_passenger

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I don't agree, I think its a very reasonable route to go via East Croydon. And from what I remember, going via East Croydon is possibly the fastest way to go Victoria to Norwood Junction anyway.

It is clearly shown on NR's planner as needing a higher fare (that turns out to be two fares combined). That must tell us something...

The fact that hundreds of people probably go the long way round on the wrong fare every day doesn't necessarily make it legit...
 

b0b

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Looks to be a valid route on map LB though?

(though there is a mention that you cant travel through a group discarded using a fares check, but that one is strongly contested I know)
 

razasis

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John - I didn't even consider that there might be a shorter route than the direct train, which goes via clapham junction. On that basis it seems clear that I can't do what I want. I'd still be interested to know if there are any reasons I might not be able to break the journey , assuming it was permitted, other than a specific easement?

Alex
 

RJ

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John - I didn't even consider that there might be a shorter route than the direct train, which goes via clapham junction. On that basis it seems clear that I can't do what I want. I'd still be interested to know if there are any reasons I might not be able to break the journey , assuming it was permitted, other than a specific easement?

Alex

If you want to go to and from East Croydon, why not change over to a season ticket from there?

Condition 30 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage provides the ultimate stance on how a season ticket may be used, regardless of what a member of staff tells you. The NRCoC can be found here - www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/

From personal experience, I've found that quite a few barrier staff/ticket inspectors are unaware that season tickets can be used at intermediate stations on a permitted line of route so can sympathise with your enquiry.

Also, you should be certain of the validity of your ticket before using it for what it's not obviously intended for and also be willing to accept that such use will cause you problems sometimes.

though there is a mention that you cant travel through a group discarded using a fares check

Where is this written?
 
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b0b

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johnnycache

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A few comments on this:


Generally the rule is that you have to travel by the shortest available route and then you can take any of the mapped routes from there irrespective of fare

On map LB or SC it seems permissible to go Crystal Palace-Croydon-Streatham-Clapham Junction-Victoria although this would involve a double back if starting from Norwood Junction

On map LK it seems permissible to go Crystal Palace-Beckenham Junction-Herne Hill-Victoria


The maps seem misleading:

LB would be better if it showed Norwood Junction as a point between Croydon and Crystal Palace and Croydon and New Cross Gate

SC shows a non-existent route between Crystal Palace and Croydon apart from via Norwood Junction
 

b0b

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You seemed to have missed that you can do Victoria - East Croydon via Selhurst and then East Croydon to Norwood Junction, on Map LB. Which I'm sure is what the OP wants to do as the "fasts" between VIC and ECR go via Selhurst (mostly!)
 

johnnycache

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I now think but please help me with this that a Crystal Palace to London ticket is valid via Norwood Junction and/or East/West Croydon but a Norwood Junction to London ticket is not valid via Croydon. This is because the "Shrewsbury rule" can't apply if the origin station is a routeing point. Of course this is in many ways an absurd result.
 
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b0b

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Having read this "If one station is a routeing point and the other one is a related station, the permitted route is the shortest route to the routeing point plus the permitted routes between routeing points" in the instructions

I'm going to say now that via East Croydon is not a valid route as there is no way to go from Norwood Junction to Crystal Palace to East Croydon to Victoria without doubling back through either Selhurst or Norwood Junction (and Croydon as the routeing point is disallowed by the fares check rule).

johnnycache: what is your opinion on the shrewsbury rule, it is only shown in section F - there is no mention of this rule in section A of the guide. There are many people in the forum that believe that the shrewsbury rule does not exist because its missing in section A.

I think we both now agree the OP could use a London Terminals - Crystal Palace ticket to go Norwood Junction to Victoria via East Croydon.
 

RJ

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Having read this "If one station is a routeing point and the other one is a related station, the permitted route is the shortest route to the routeing point plus the permitted routes between routeing points" in the instructions

I'm going to say now that via East Croydon is not a valid route as there is no way to go from Norwood Junction to Crystal Palace to East Croydon to Victoria without doubling back through either Selhurst or Norwood Junction (and Croydon as the routeing point is disallowed by the fares check rule).

johnnycache: what is your opinion on the shrewsbury rule, it is only shown in section F - there is no mention of this rule in section A of the guide. There are many people in the forum that believe that the shrewsbury rule does not exist because its missing in section A.

I think we both now agree the OP could use a London Terminals - Crystal Palace ticket to go Norwood Junction to Victoria via East Croydon.

Is the 3 mile rule mentioned anywhere other than deep down in that document? I don't think we can pick and choose which rules should be followed based on whether we like them or not!

If the 3 mile rule is accepted as ok to follow, then this one has to be as well.

 

b0b

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Is the 3 mile rule mentioned anywhere other than deep down in that document? I don't think we can pick and choose which rules should be followed based on whether we like them or not!

Well one can argue that the 3 mile rule is a clarification of what is meant by the "shortest route", whereas the "shrewsbury" rule is an entirely new rule that is not mentioned at all in section A.
 

OwlMan

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Well one can argue that the 3 mile rule is a clarification of what is meant by the "shortest route", whereas the "shrewsbury" rule is an entirely new rule that is not mentioned at all in section A.

Surely the Shrewsbury rule is just restating the fact that you must end up travelling from an appropiate routeing point (as Shrewsbury is not a valid routeing point you can not end up travelling from Shrewsbury to Church Stretton but must end up travelling from Craven Arms to Church Stretton.)
 

swt_passenger

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Surely the Shrewsbury rule is just restating the fact that you must end up travelling from an appropiate routeing point (as Shrewsbury is not a valid routeing point you can not end up travelling from Shrewsbury to Church Stretton but must end up travelling from Craven Arms to Church Stretton.)

Or put another way, the Shrewsbury rule is just a knock on effect of the 'fares rule'?
 

John @ home

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the Shrewsbury rule is just a knock on effect of the 'fares rule'?
Agreed. It applies to the calculation of permitted mapped routes but not to other permitted routes.

In this Norwood Jn - London Victoria example, Routeing Points for Norwood Jn are Croydon Group, Crystal Palace and New Cross Gate and, comparing Anytime Day Single (SDS) fares, the fares check gives:
  • Norwood Jn - London Terminals SDS £4.40
  • All 3 Croydon Group stations - London Terminals SDS £5.30. So Croydon Group is not an appropriate RP for this journey.
  • Crystal Palace - London Terminals SDS £3.70. So Crystal Palace is an appropriate RP for this journey.
  • New Cross Gate - London Terminals SDS £2.80. So New Cross Gate is an appropriate RP for this journey.
As a result, no mapped routes between Norwood Jn and London Victoria may go via any station in Croydon Group.

But razasis's season ticket is Norwood Jn - London Terminals. Vauxhall is one of the stations in the list of London Terminals, so no mapped routes between Norwood Jn and Vauxhall may go via any station in Croydon Group. However, if my calculation is correct that
  • Norwood Jn - East Croydon - Selhurst - Clapham Jn - Vauxhall
is not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest Norwood Jn - Vauxhall route with a passenger service, then that route is a Permitted Route by the rule at the bottom of page F9 of the National Routeing Guide:
The National Routeing Guide in Detail said:
Journeys on direct trains or taking the route of shortest distance or a distance longer by no more than 3 miles are always following a permitted route.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/nrg_detail.pdf
 

johnnycache

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Replying to bOb (at 0324):

I agree with you (about Norwood Junction and doubling back) but i still think its possible to use a ticket from Crystal Palace to Victoria via East Croydon for this journey as there is no double back from Crystal Palace

Its difficult to argue that the Shrewsbury rule is invalid because of the way it is presented although without doubt the whole thing could be presented much more clearly
 

b0b

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So taking the actual Shrewsbury example in the document, it seems entirely possible to go Newport > Gloucester > Birmingham > Wolverhamption > Shrewsbury > Craven Arms as there is no double back - only this "can't travel via a routeing point disallowed by a fares check" is cited as the reason you cannot do that - but that rule is not mentioned in Section A.
 

johnnycache

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The problem is section F describes itself as giving more detail not just examples of the details we have already been given. So i'm inclined to think its ok. Sections A and F could be combined to make it clearer.
 
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