Not moving from clearly marked reserved seat when requested by reservation holder

[beeza1]

If you have a valid seat reservation and the person or persons occupying said seat/seats refuse to move are they committing an offence or byelaw breach, and if so what are the consequences of such an action?
I have never had a problem with people moving apart from the usual "where am I supposed to sit", although I once did get called a "selfish bas****".

 

[route:oxford]

If you have a valid seat reservation and the person or persons occupying said seat/seats refuse to move are they committing an offence or byelaw breach, and if so what are the consequences of such an action?
I have never had a problem with people moving apart from the usual "where am I supposed to sit", although I once did get called a "selfish bas****".

Yes.

Then I saw the most beautiful Lab look up and I realised why the individual was wearing dark glasses...

Goodness knows why Virgin repeatedly book people without impairments in disabled seats.

 

[185143]

I was once told on a rammed voyager at New Street back when I was 13 or 14 (not sure now) to shove my reservation somewhere I didn't particularly want to..

The TM didn't take issue with me setting up camp in the First Class vestibule for the trip back to Manchester anyway (by the time I got there, there was no way she'd have got back to my reserved seat-the train was too full.)

So the consequence in that case was the reservation holder didn't have to pay for his wifi, had a personal power socket and even managed to get a free drink off the trolley-even if it did mean pulling a Corbyn! (I didn't move once the train emptied out a bit)

 

[F Great Eastern]

If it's not a full train, and there are unreserved seats of the same type/facing direction/aisle/window etc in the carriage close by I never kick up much of a fuss because lets face it, does it really matter if you sit in an airline window seat facing forward in a row further ahead or not?

HOWEVER

If I booked a table seat or a seat with a socket and someone is occupying it and won't move from it and there are no other seats free nearby of the same type that is when I get very angry with it, it happened to me on VTWC maybe 3 times in the last two years but for some reason never happened on any other TOC.

First time I had an aisle seat at a table and woman had a window seat, she wouldn't move and said she had a lot of things for work and needed the full table and the seat for her stuff and there were plenty of other seats and I would have more room there, but it was a long journey and I needed to work, I went to see the TM who pretty much told me tough luck find another seat. I wasn't amused.

Second time I had a window seat at a table and the guy who was sitting there said he had a season ticket and he had a gold card so he could sit where the hell he liked because he paid a lot more than me and I should respect my elders. TM was doing ticket round at the time and the gentleman (sigh) complained about me saying I was being aggressive to him (I wasn't) and trying to make him move seats, then had a massive lecture about how much money he gives the railway, and the TM refused to move him and told me to calm down (even though I did nothing) and to find another seat.

Third time the train was full and I couldn't find a single seat in the train and the person said that they were uneasy on their feet so they could not move or they might pass out and refused to move, I walked down the carriage towards First Class and they were all laughing "he bought that" and when I walked down to find a staff member who I found in First Class who then had a go at me for walking down to the first class area without even sitting down on a standard class ticket.

 

[HH]

If it's not a full train, and there are unreserved seats of the same type/facing direction/aisle/window etc in the carriage close by I never kick up much of a fuss because lets face it, does it really matter if you sit in an airline window seat facing forward in a row further ahead or not?

HOWEVER

If I booked a table seat or a seat with a socket and someone is occupying it and won't move from it and there are no other seats free nearby of the same type that is when I get very angry with it, it happened to me on VTWC maybe 3 times in the last two years but for some reason never happened on any other TOC.

First time I had an aisle seat at a table and woman had a window seat, she wouldn't move and said she had a lot of things for work and needed the full table and the seat for her stuff and there were plenty of other seats and I would have more room there, but it was a long journey and I needed to work, I went to see the TM who pretty much told me tough luck find another seat. I wasn't amused.

Second time I had a window seat at a table and the guy who was sitting there said he had a season ticket and he had a gold card so he could sit where the hell he liked because he paid a lot more than me and I should respect my elders. TM was doing ticket round at the time and the gentleman (sigh) complained about me saying I was being aggressive to him (I wasn't) and trying to make him move seats, then had a massive lecture about how much money he gives the railway, and the TM refused to move him and told me to calm down (even though I did nothing) and to find another seat.

Third time the train was full and I couldn't find a single seat in the train and the person said that they were uneasy on their feet so they could not move or they might pass out and refused to move, I walked down the carriage towards First Class and they were all laughing "he bought that" and when I walked down to find a staff member who I found in First Class who then had a go at me for walking down to the first class area without even sitting down on a standard class ticket.

I do hope that in each occasion you have made a complaint to VTWC.

 

[kermit]

The whole system of seat reservation is flawed.

It results in people feeling obliged to sit next to other people they would have quietly avoided otherwise (nutter on the bus syndrome or worse), and is guaranteed to generate conflict, even over honest mistakes, with the inevitable consequence that some inebriated or wired thug will cause injury - or worse again.

The introduction of the inadequately short and ineptly designed (very hard to find/interpret seat reservation info) Voyagers was the icing on the cake for this retrograde step in railway travel.

 

[BestWestern]

I believe the time honoured tradition is to threaten to sit on the ignorant sod's lap...

 

[Bertie the bus]

I believe the time honoured tradition is to threaten to sit on the ignorant sod's lap...

Or just make it absolutely obvious that you are not going to take no for an answer. In my experience it does seem to be a particular problem on VTWC services with the most common excuse being 'It didn't say reserved before'. My reply is always along the lines of 'Well, it says reserved now. If there's a problem with the display you need to take that up with Virgin Trains but it is my reserved seat'.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Of course the oddest thing about seat reservations is that those who have paid the least are guaranteed to have seat reservation, whilst those who have paid the most may not have a seat reservation.

Fairly frequently I don't travel in my reserved seat though, usually because every seat in its immediate vicinity is occupied whilst in the next carriage there are usually masses of empty seats!

 

[Bertie the bus]

Of course the oddest thing about seat reservations is that those who have paid the least are guaranteed to have seat reservation, whilst those who have paid the most may not have a seat reservation.

That's not true. Those carrying the most expensive tickets might not have seat reservations but the majority of those people have paid nothing; their company has.

 

[tsr]

My travel has been a lot easier since the point from which I have no longer bothered to book seats, Sleeper trains excepted (which is rather different). Luckily I am a Priv holder, so walk-up tickets are usually decently priced and wouldn't come with a reservation by default - but the fact of the matter is that a walk-up ticket with no reservation is much the same, in principle, with or without the discount. It means you are absolved of the need to hunt down your seat, which inevitably has something wrong with it - grubby table, no view, unpleasant character sitting next to you, etc.

I've recently been on some traditionally rammed routes - summer services to and from the West Country before and after the weekend, up to Norwich on a Friday evening, evening peaks on the ECML, you name it really - and I've not had to stand once. Ever. I've not had an argument about a seat. Ever. I've just walked down to an obscure bit of the platform, or the train, asked someone to move a bag off a free seat if need be, and sat down. It's really not hard. People just need to spread out a bit, and if you want a seat, be organised enough to look for it and sit in it.

The South Central has managed without seat reservations for leisure services (obviously totally impossible on peak commuter stuff) for years and years now, and some of those trains have passengers making journeys lasting over two hours, so equivalent to some shorter intercity-type travel. People do complain about having to stand or not knowing where best to sit, but by and large this is down to being unobservant. First Class, being as it is a form of paid seat reservation in a large swathe of the country, is bad enough to enforce - I know this more than anyone - and all seat reservations seem to do is cause people to shuffle down aisles or cause conflict with others.

 

[Hartington]

The passenger failing to move would appear to be in contravention of the railway bye laws:

19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf

 

[takno]

That's not true. Those carrying the most expensive tickets might not have seat reservations but the majority of those people have paid nothing; their company has.

I'm not at all convinced that the majority of people travelling on walk-up tickets with no reservation are having their travel paid for by work. However, when I am using a ticket bought by my company I am acting as an agent for them and expect to enjoy a seat on their behalf.

 

[Bertie the bus]

However, when I am using a ticket bought by my company I am acting as an agent for them and expect to enjoy a seat on their behalf.

You can expect whatever you want but it doesn't give you the right to refuse to give up a seat to the reservation holder.

 

[edwin_m]

I'm not at all convinced that the majority of people travelling on walk-up tickets with no reservation are having their travel paid for by work. However, when I am using a ticket bought by my company I am acting as an agent for them and expect to enjoy a seat on their behalf.

If I'm travelling on business I always book a table seat so I can do useful work on the laptop. If I have to stand or sit in an airline seat (with a few exceptions such as Eurostar) I will still be on the company's time but not doing anything useful for them. So it is in the company's interests that I get a table seat.

 

[takno]

You can expect whatever you want but it doesn't give you the right to refuse to give up a seat to the reservation holder.

Did I at any point say that I had to right to refuse to give up a seat, or that I ever do refuse to give up a seat? Frankly I get more irritated with the people who have reservations coming and taking up what should be my space in unreserved coaches because they don't like the seat they've booked.

 

[ValleyLines142]

That's not true. Those carrying the most expensive tickets might not have seat reservations but the majority of those people have paid nothing; their company has.

Also a more expensive ticket generally has more flexibility, which is ultimately what people are paying for, not a seat.

Also if they know what service they're going to travel on then they can go to a ticket office and get a seat reservation.

 

[Llanigraham]

However, when I am using a ticket bought by my company I am acting as an agent for them and expect to enjoy a seat on their behalf.

You are not an agent of your company, but a "servant".

Your ticket does not give you the right to a seat; all it guarantees is the right to a JOURNEY between the stated stations.

 

[Ianno87]

I've recently been on some traditionally rammed routes - summer services to and from the West Country before and after the weekend, up to Norwich on a Friday evening, evening peaks on the ECML, you name it really - and I've not had to stand once. Ever. I've not had an argument about a seat. Ever. I've just walked down to an obscure bit of the platform, or the train, asked someone to move a bag off a free seat if need be, and sat down. It's really not hard. People just need to spread out a bit, and if you want a seat, be organised enough to look for it and sit in it.

When I was used to travelling solo, I would have strongly agreed with you. I never struggled to find somewhere to sit down; just head to the bit of the platform no-one else is waiting on.

However, now I'm more used to travelling as a family group of 3, later 4, it is an extremely nice part of rail travel to be able to sit together, preferably round a table. "Spreading out a bit" isn't really practical for us as we don't really want to be scattered all over the place, especially if a lone traveller or two are occupying a table (I do recognise, from my own experience, that working from a laptop is normally much easier from a table than an airline seat).

It does make me wonder whether a "selective" reservation system on Long Distance services in standard class would be better...
i.e. only available for the following:
-Groups of 3-4 or more booking together and/or Family Railcard bookings
-Senior Railcard or Disabled Railcard holders (with preferential assignment to priority seats)
-Perhaps as a charged add-on for flexible tickets (i.e. Off Peak or Anytime) for other users, to discourage people from booking them and not using them, often creating a source of unnecessary clustering of people on the train.

[I'm now going to run an hide for cover from the inevitable flurry of grenades to be lobbed in my direction. Toodles!]

 

[takno]

You are not an agent of your company, but a "servant".

Your ticket does not give you the right to a seat; all it guarantees is the right to a JOURNEY between the stated stations.

You know absolutely nothing about my relationship to my company. All I was trying to do was point out in a tongue-in-cheek way that even if a company has paid for it, an expensive ticket has been bought.

The original observation was that it was a bit frustrating that the people with the most expensive tickets are least likely to get a seat on the train. Neither the original comment or I was implying that I should or do have the right to turf somebody out of their seat, take a reserved seat or do anything else. Just that it would be nice if somebody had an idea to make this work a bit better.

 

[edwin_m]

Just that it would be nice if somebody had an idea to make this work a bit better.

I think you're back to the XC "may be reserved en route" or something very similar. That might work OK with better seat displays and probably some information on which coaches the unserved seats are to be found in.

 

[edwin_m]

Frankly I get more irritated with the people who have reservations coming and taking up what should be my space in unreserved coaches because they don't like the seat they've booked.

Is someone's right to a booked seat forfeited a few minutes after the train leaves the station from which it is booked? Certainly I've seen on-train staff come down and remove reservation tickets for unoccupied seats booked from earlier stations.

 

[dcsprior]

I think you're back to the XC "may be reserved en route" or something very similar. That might work OK with better seat displays and probably some information on which coaches the unserved seats are to be found in.

The main thing the XC solution needs is a way to reserve a seat you've just sat in which is "may be reserved". Eg scan a unique QR code at the seat in question.

Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk

 

[dtaylor84]

It does make me wonder whether a "selective" reservation system on Long Distance services in standard class would be better...
i.e. only available for the following:
-Groups of 3-4 or more booking together and/or Family Railcard bookings
-Senior Railcard or Disabled Railcard holders (with preferential assignment to priority seats)
-Perhaps as a charged add-on for flexible tickets (i.e. Off Peak or Anytime) for other users, to discourage people from booking them and not using them, often creating a source of unnecessary clustering of people on the train.

Well, I can see how that would be "better" for you, but I'm not sure why that would be objectively better overall?

 

[tgsh2011]

You know absolutely nothing about my relationship to my company. All I was trying to do was point out in a tongue-in-cheek way that even if a company has paid for it, an expensive ticket has been bought.

The original observation was that it was a bit frustrating that the people with the most expensive tickets are least likely to get a seat on the train. Neither the original comment or I was implying that I should or do have the right to turf somebody out of their seat, take a reserved seat or do anything else. Just that it would be nice if somebody had an idea to make this work a bit better.

If you are an EMPLOYEE of the company then you are, as a matter of law, a servant. That goes back to the 19th century.

 

[Silver Cobra]

I had a bit of a weird situation at the end of last year, with regards to seat reservations. I was travelling from Birmingham New Street to Euston after visiting the Christmas market in Birmingham city centre. I took my reserved seat in coach E (I always reserve seat 17 in coach E on Pendolinos when travelling southbound in standard), and nothing out of the ordinary at this point. At Coventry, a couple board and walk over to where I am sitting.
"Excuse me, you're sitting in my seat", the man says to me.
"Sorry, but I have reserved this seat", I reply, showing my ticket and seat reservation.
The man simply repeats the same line as before, and his partner then starts saying about how they reserved the particular seats themselves. They showed me their tickets, but I couldn't see their reservation details (they were Print-At-Home tickets, so I possibly just didn't spot them). I showed them my ticket and reservation again to reiterate that I had reserved this seat from Birmingham New Street to Euston, but they weren't accepting this. Rather than cause a major scene, as people were starting to look in our direction, I just relented and let them have the seat, but left with the parting comment "Looks like the system has double-booked the seat or something". I moved down into coach F, which was actually fairly empty compared to E, so it wasn't so bad that I moved.

I understand that, as I had a reservation for the seat, I was under no obligation to move, but sometimes it's better just to let things go rather than potentially cause issues.

Slightly off-topic from the main discussion, but with this all in mind, is there a possibility that the seat could have been double-booked? Like I say, I didn't see properly their reservation details, so they could have been in the wrong coach or even on the wrong train. However, if everything was as they were saying it was, is it possible that the seat was somehow double-booked?

 

[trainophile]

I bet they were on a different timed train to the one they had reservations on. I've seen that happen, although it was easily spotted when the proper "orange" tickets were produced.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

If you are an EMPLOYEE of the company then you are, as a matter of law, a servant. That goes back to the 19th century.

And it's just as possible that Takno is the sole director of his own company (as I am of mine); where, according to the first gov.uk website I googled, "the legal status of a director is that of an office-holder and an agent of the company". Which is entirely as you'd expect, as you'd be hard pushed to describe 100% shareholding and a directorship as a "servant".

Maybe best not to pronounce on others' personal circumstances?

 

[sw1ller]

weirdly, I like to stand..... and I'm a driver! I always get a seat and I very rarely use it! (I have to on one type of train, very awkward to stand up in) Crazy how it all works out eh!

 

[Richard_B]

I don't like seat reservations because they are so often not used and it creates a lottery. It's not uncommon to find 20 seats in a carriage on a GWR HST to the West Country that are reserved from Paddington that no one has sat in just before departure (on emptier trains). I assume a similar thing happens if the service is busy and then people have to gamble that the person is on an flex ticket and doesn't take this train. But if they do turn up you are stuffed. I'd rather have the lottery for getting a seat being turn up earlier than guess the right seat that doesn't turn up