Nottingham 'Bus War'

[edwin_m]

There was always competition from Midland Fox and its successor company Arriva mainly along A60 only. Arriva pulled away from the route and then Premier Travel tried and failed. Kinch have built up a good route along the A60 and if you were going to Nottingham, then you would travel by Kinch because it is quicker.

Surely the time-sensitive passenger between Nottingham and Loughborough would ignore all three bus routes and use the train? So, leaving aside concessions, the buses must survive mainly on intermediate passengers who will not have easy access to more than one of the three because their routes are totally different. I think this explains why all three survive - even if the 9 is the quickest route the 1 and Nottingham Skylink each serve much more population along the way.

 

[AndyW33]

Surely the time-sensitive passenger between Nottingham and Loughborough would ignore all three bus routes and use the train? So, leaving aside concessions, the buses must survive mainly on intermediate passengers who will not have easy access to more than one of the three because their routes are totally different. I think this explains why all three survive - even if the 9 is the quickest route the 1 and Nottingham Skylink each serve much more population along the way.

Would the time sensitive passenger between Nottingham and Loughborough use the train? Depending on which train you catch, once an hour you can do the journey by train in 15 minutes, and once an hour in 22 minutes on the off-peak timetable. The 9 bus takes 41 minutes travelling from Nottingham Broadmarsh to Loughborough town centre (though only 35 minutes in the other direction).
But when you get to Loughborough on the train you are at one extreme edge of the town and a 15 minute walk to the town centre. There are of course buses (including the 1, the 9, and the Sprint whose timetable varies according to the University terms) and taxis. If you want to get to anywhere in Loughborough other than the University from the station by public transport, you'll need to change again in the town centre.
So Kinchbus 9 isn't as uncompetitive against the train in the speed stakes as it looks at first sight.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

Surely the time-sensitive passenger between Nottingham and Loughborough would ignore all three bus routes and use the train? So, leaving aside concessions, the buses must survive mainly on intermediate passengers who will not have easy access to more than one of the three because their routes are totally different. I think this explains why all three survive - even if the 9 is the quickest route the 1 and Nottingham Skylink each serve much more population along the way.

To echo the comments by AndyW above plus a train single is £6.70, returns from £8.30. Bus fares are half of that.
Bus service runs at a fairly memorable 30minute frequency. Train runs very 30minutes from Nottingham, every 10/50 from Loughborough.
Bus wins.....

 

[Pe251lz]

Um, not quite - the 99/X99/Red9 was Premier's big success, and bankrolled a number of other less successful ventures. Wellglade tried and failed to duplicate that success using the Kinch brand while Premier.

Premier's failure wasn't to do with the route, and it's telling that Wellglade jumped straight on it after Premier failed.

I quite agree.
The 99 was hourly until Arriva withdrew. Premiere's Red9 was very successful, doubling the frequency with very low fares. Wellglade/trentbarton/kinch moved in purely to attack Premiere & failed miserably (awful timetable didn't help). Premiere won the war. It's a shame NCT under the South Notts99 brand didn't move in after Premieres collapse.

 

[ivanhoe]

I quite agree.
The 99 was hourly until Arriva withdrew. Premiere's Red9 was very successful, doubling the frequency with very low fares. Wellglade/trentbarton/kinch moved in purely to attack Premiere & failed miserably (awful timetable didn't help). Premiere won the war. It's a shame NCT under the South Notts99 brand didn't move in after Premieres collapse.

But why would you want NCT to move in, rather than Kinch? Kinch has a good brand in Loughborough whilst NCT's number 1 is still referred to as the South Notts Bus. The Loughborough 9 route is not natural NCT territory.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

But why would you want NCT to move in, rather than Kinch? Kinch has a good brand in Loughborough whilst NCT's number 1 is still referred to as the South Notts Bus. The Loughborough 9 route is not natural NCT territory.

Suppose you could have had the NCT 10 extended half hourly to Loughborough. This would have been slower than the direct route. Interesting thought.....

 

[tbone]

As I understand it, plans were already in place to bring back the Kinchbus 9 before Premiere's collapse (due to the worsening state of their operation) anyway, these plans being accelerated once the business closed. So Kinchbus got in far quicker than NCT could have done, even if they had an interested.

They did of course begin running the 46/47 after Premiere's collapse (formally the Red7) which is outside of their area for part of the route so under different circumstances they may have been interested.

 

[MCR247]

Think the 46/47 were at least partly subsidised and so I think it was at least partly down to an emergency tender (is that what they're called) from the Council

 

[Mitch in Notts]

Think the 46/47 were at least partly subsidised and so I think it was at least partly down to an emergency tender (is that what they're called) from the Council

47 is part subsidised. By taking on that operation it withdrew any future potential competition on the Woodborough Road corridor from it.

 

[MCR247]

By taking on that operation it withdrew any future potential competition on the Woodborough Road corridor from it.

Although would the operator taking on the 47 really be able to compete with NCT? Premiere tried and failed with the Red7 (every 15 mins Mapperley Top - Town) but there was never anyone on it.

 

[edwin_m]

As I understand it, plans were already in place to bring back the Kinchbus 9 before Premiere's collapse

I'm pretty sure the Kinchbus 9 has run continuously since it transferred from Arriva, albeit only every hour until it was stepped up to every 30min during the day when Premiere went under. Are you actually intending to refer to this step-up rather than suggesting the resumption of a service that had been entirely withdrawn?

 

[howittpie]

I thought it was Premiere who replaced the Arriva 99 with the red 9 which also ran through beyond the town centre to the university on Ashby Road they ran every 30 minutes. Wellglade registered an hourly 9 at the height of the competition between Wellglade and Premiere when there was barginbus competing with the red 1 it appears it was Dr registered after a while but when Premiere were in trouble Wellglade took over the 9 from the town centre in the form it is now operated.

 

[AB93]

I thought it was Premiere who replaced the Arriva 99 with the red 9 which also ran through beyond the town centre to the university on Ashby Road they ran every 30 minutes. Wellglade registered an hourly 9 at the height of the competition between Wellglade and Premiere when there was barginbus competing with the red 1 it appears it was Dr registered after a while but when Premiere were in trouble Wellglade took over the 9 from the town centre in the form it is now operated.

Yes - and Kinch gave up their competitive version of the 9 (with Darts) as everyone used Premiere.

There was then a good while of Premiere-only before they went bust and Kinchbus came back onto the 9 (with Excels to start with and then Scanias).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To add some specifics, Kinch gave up their competitive 9 (which was hourly) in March 2012.

Premiere went bust in late January 2013, Kinch then 'rescued' the 9 service.

I don't know the dates of when Arriva's service was axed and Premiere took over, or when Kinch started their original competitive version.

 

[howittpie]

Arriva withdrew the 99 in July 2009 and from what I can find out Premiere took it up at that time as red 9 though I think it started out as the x9.

 

[Robertj21a]

As others have said, Premiere took on the route when Arriva withdrew their 99. It was often run with coaches and picked up reasonable numbers. Kinchbus only came on the scene *properly* with their 9 once Premiere had finished,

 

[LowLevel]

Yes - the original 9 with Darts went out with a bang as one self immolated en route on the last day!

 

[Ginga]

Yes - and Kinch gave up their competitive version of the 9 (with Darts) as everyone used Premiere.

There was then a good while of Premiere-only before they went bust and Kinchbus came back onto the 9 (with Excels to start with and then Scanias).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To add some specifics, Kinch gave up their competitive 9 (which was hourly) in March 2012.

Premiere went bust in late January 2013, Kinch then 'rescued' the 9 service.

I don't know the dates of when Arriva's service was axed and Premiere took over, or when Kinch started their original competitive version.

Premiere took it on as X9 running from Angel Row every hour , it latter became Red 9 every 30 mins from Friar Lane, when Premiere took it over Veolia ran the evening service which was paid for by Notts County Council as a 9E which went via Ruddington , Clifton and Qmc.

Kinchbus started a K9 service every hour when Premiere started Red 2 to Cotgrave and Red 4 to Stabbo. Fares at the start were £1 single to Loughborough and £5 weekly on K9. they latter doubled fares overnight and then pulled off.

Premiere had brought a 59 plate Enviro 300 and was doing a deal for the other ex Jpt one when they went tit's up ,also only 3 of the 8 Omnicitys on order from Dawsons had come . A load of Coaches were sold off to pay for buses. Premere were due to start a X5 to Long Eaton just before closing,

 

[WillPS]

Although would the operator taking on the 47 really be able to compete with NCT? Premiere tried and failed with the Red7 (every 15 mins Mapperley Top - Town) but there was never anyone on it.

Not true. They were doing quite well loading wise (although we are talking Solos and Singles vs Omnidekkas), which is part of the motivation behind splitting the circular 44 and 45, and then NCT had competitive £2 return fares on the 45. All disappeared with 0 warning once Premiere collapsed and they'd baggsy'd the 7.

 

[Pe251lz]

But why would you want NCT to move in, rather than Kinch? Kinch has a good brand in Loughborough whilst NCT's number 1 is still referred to as the South Notts Bus. The Loughborough 9 route is not natural NCT territory.

The original route 99 ran into Ruddington via kirk Ln & duplicated the 10 through to Nottingham (except running past w.b fire station) & since the 90's NCT have had a presence in Loughborough and an excellent brand in Nottingham, so why does it NOT seem natural? For a council owned company isn't NCT more favourable than a group of profit driven shareholders. I'm not anti Kinch but they tried previously with the 9 and passengers voted with their feet. The locals of Bunny boycotted Kinch, why? because Premiere actually turned this route around & made a success after Arriva surprisingly withdrew (also Midland Counties to Northampton!). I'm also certain Kinch ran a confusing timetable 20/40 headway. It's true they did go out in style, up in flames on the last day!
I've great respect for NCT keeping the SouthNotts name alive. They could of killed it as so often happened since the 80's. Where I live, gone is the yellow, white & green RoadCar buses, hello Stagecoach

 

[AndyW33]

I'm also certain Kinch ran a confusing timetable 20/40 headway. (

Caused by using just two buses on the cycle, so there were no clockface departures, with the rather optimistic scheduling it took 80 minutes from departing Loughborough to returning and being ready to depart again.
So you might have had departures at 10:00, then 10:40, then 11:20, then 12:00.

The current service uses 3 buses and provides an even 30 minute headway during the daytime, along with slightly more recovery time for traffic delays. Premiere in later days did the same, with only a few selected extensions beyond Loughborough Town Centre to the University, mostly in the evening. Of course in the last months of Premiere you were lucky if there were actually all three buses operating at any given time.

 

[Robertj21a]

The original route 99 ran into Ruddington via kirk Ln & duplicated the 10 through to Nottingham (except running past w.b fire station) & since the 90's NCT have had a presence in Loughborough and an excellent brand in Nottingham, so why does it NOT seem natural? For a council owned company isn't NCT more favourable than a group of profit driven shareholders. I'm not anti Kinch but they tried previously with the 9 and passengers voted with their feet. The locals of Bunny boycotted Kinch, why? because Premiere actually turned this route around & made a success after Arriva surprisingly withdrew (also Midland Counties to Northampton!). I'm also certain Kinch ran a confusing timetable 20/40 headway. It's true they did go out in style, up in flames on the last day!
I've great respect for NCT keeping the SouthNotts name alive. They could of killed it as so often happened since the 80's. Where I live, gone is the yellow, white & green RoadCar buses, hello Stagecoach

Two key reasons for Arriva withdrawing their 99 was the distance from the home depot if anything went wrong in Nottingham, and the intention to close that depot (Coalville) anyway.

 

[ivanhoe]

Two key reasons for Arriva withdrawing their 99 was the distance from the home depot if anything went wrong in Nottingham, and the intention to close that depot (Coalville) anyway.

I think you missed a third key reason in that it was not profitable for them. They did try with 99p bus fares for a while before they axed it. I agree the first two reasons may well have influenced the third key reason. As it happens, the current route is stable and that is what is needed along the A60 route. There are three bus routes from Loughborough to Nottingham but you would have to be a fanatic to travel via Nottingham Skylink and NCT route if you boarded at Loughborough.

 

[Pe251lz]

Premiere took it on as X9 running from Angel Row every hour , it latter became Red 9 every 30 mins from Friar Lane, when Premiere took it over Veolia ran the evening service which was paid for by Notts County Council as a 9E which went via Ruddington , Clifton and Qmc.

Kinchbus started a K9 service every hour when Premiere started Red 2 to Cotgrave and Red 4 to Stabbo. Fares at the start were £1 single to Loughborough and £5 weekly on K9. they latter doubled fares overnight and then pulled off

£1.00 singles offered by Kinch & Premieres standard low fares, the passenger should miss Premiere!!
Kinch now charge £3.20 but I'm more shocked at NCT charging £4.15 singles Nottm-Loughborough, when in the mid 90's it was the opposite extreme £1.20!
The South Notts 1 is very different now though, as its a stand alone route. In the 90's hay day of a quarter of an hour frequency, it was basically Clifton uni students making the route viable. Although at a cost to the rest of the route it made sense to bring in uni 4 because loadings could be very light from Loughborough all the way to Clifton then a more or less empty decker was full with standees just from one stop alone! Weekend evenings needed duplicates.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

Trent Barton new 'Nines' timetable from the 29th May with all journeys avoiding Coxbench (understandable) & Little Eaton.
That leaves those two villages with no weekday evening & no Sunday morning buses. I wouldn't call Little Eaton exactly small!
And the Sunday pm(Amberline) is a Derbyshire tender so under threat anyway!

 

[Mugby]

Trent Barton new 'Nines' timetable from the 29th May with all journeys avoiding Coxbench (understandable) & Little Eaton.
That leaves those two villages with no weekday evening & no Sunday morning buses. I wouldn't call Little Eaton exactly small!
And the Sunday pm(Amberline) is a Derbyshire tender so under threat anyway!

I can't understand why departures from Mansfield will be every fifteen minutes throughout the day (as now) but reduce to every twenty minutes for the evening peak.

 

[WillPS]

I can't understand why departures from Mansfield will be every fifteen minutes throughout the day (as now) but reduce to every twenty minutes for the evening peak.

Traffic at the end of the A38? Can be hellish. Turnaround at Sutton to avoid problems. Now that the Threes mostly go to Mansfield, there's plenty of options on that corridor.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The original route 99 ran into Ruddington via kirk Ln & duplicated the 10 through to Nottingham (except running past w.b fire station) & since the 90's NCT have had a presence in Loughborough and an excellent brand in Nottingham, so why does it NOT seem natural? For a council owned company isn't NCT more favourable than a group of profit driven shareholders. I'm not anti Kinch but they tried previously with the 9 and passengers voted with their feet. The locals of Bunny boycotted Kinch, why? because Premiere actually turned this route around & made a success after Arriva surprisingly withdrew (also Midland Counties to Northampton!). I'm also certain Kinch ran a confusing timetable 20/40 headway. It's true they did go out in style, up in flames on the last day!
I've great respect for NCT keeping the SouthNotts name alive. They could of killed it as so often happened since the 80's. Where I live, gone is the yellow, white & green RoadCar buses, hello Stagecoach

Well don't be too quick to shower them with praise. The brand has been hastily withdrawn and then bought back on at least 2 occasions.

 

[Robertj21a]

I can't understand why departures from Mansfield will be every fifteen minutes throughout the day (as now) but reduce to every twenty minutes for the evening peak.

Because it means that they can give it extra running time for the peak without increasing the PVR.

 

[Steveoh]

I asked NCT the reason for the cutbacks to the 1 and received this reply (not unexpected really)

Thank you for taking the time to contact NCT. Your comments were forwarded to our Commercial Manager for his response.

The service we provide has to be financially sustainable and it is a fact that since the tram service has started operating from Clifton to Nottingham there has been a change in the travel patterns of people using our navy Line services.

From the beginning of May we are revising the timetable on this route to ensure that the level of service provided is more akin to the demand that exists for it and this will ensure that we are able to offer a regular level of service between Nottingham and Gotham in a sustainable way in the medium and long term.

 

[Pigalle]

An interesting change to the trentbartonland Saver ticket has appeared on TB's page:

saver changes from 22 May

We’ll be making some changes to saver that will come into effect on Sunday 22 May...

at no extra cost the trentbarton land saver will be valid across the entire Kinchbus network including skylink Derby.

https://www.trentbarton.co.uk/news-and-media/our-news/article/saverchanges2016

Obviously this ticket already existed as the skylink supercommuter (http://smartgo.co.uk/images/EMA_supercommuter_poster.pdf) but it is nice to see it rolled out to all passengers who are paying as much for the trentbartonland saver as the skylink supercommuter cost.

 

[howittpie]

What suprised me was the cost of a annual zone a saver at £500. Seems expensive at £60 more than the easyrider and only £40 less than the Robin Hood season that includes trams, trains and other bus operators.