Nottingham...in relative isolation

[CTS1990]

Apart from CrossCountry's service to Birmingham & Cardiff Central, Nottingham is not well serviced by long distance trains.

I assume this was not always the case. Am I right in thinking there used to be a Nottingham to Glasgow service that ran via the S&C in years gone by? No doubt in the days of Nottingham Victoria, the network would have been even more substantial.

Does anyone have records of how/when Nottingham began to lose its direct services to Scotland and other destinations further afield?

 

[Harvester]

Apart from CrossCountry's service to Birmingham & Cardiff Central, Nottingham is not well serviced by long distance trains.

I assume this was not always the case. Am I right in thinking there used to be a Nottingham to Glasgow service that ran via the S&C in years gone by? No doubt in the days of Nottingham Victoria, the network would have been even more substantial.

Does anyone have records of how/when Nottingham began to lose its direct services to Scotland and other destinations further afield?

I travelled on the 10:20 Nottingham-Glasgow in 1977 which then ran via the S&C route. It used this route until the early 1980s before being re-routed via the Hope Valley, Manchester, Preston and WCML. I think through running from St Pancras to Glasgow via Nottingham had ceased the previous year!

 

[philosopher]

Apart from CrossCountry's service to Birmingham & Cardiff Central, Nottingham is not well serviced by long distance trains.

I assume this was not always the case. Am I right in thinking there used to be a Nottingham to Glasgow service that ran via the S&C in years gone by? No doubt in the days of Nottingham Victoria, the network would have been even more substantial.

Does anyone have records of how/when Nottingham began to lose its direct services to Scotland and other destinations further afield?

This is something I noticed when I was at University at Nottingham. I suspect it had a lot to do with the Midland Railway choosing to route their mainline through Derby in the mid 19th central leaving Nottingham at the end of spur line.

Perhaps during this time Nottingham was less important economically then Derby.

 

[Falcon1200]

I suspect it had a lot to do with the Midland Railway choosing to route their mainline through Derby in the mid 19th central leaving Nottingham at the end of spur line.

Also railway geography, the NE/SW route passes through Derby giving that city direct services to multiple places other than London, serving Nottingham would be a much longer way round!

 

[yorksrob]

Of course, Nottingham used to have a good route to the South West via the Great Central and Banbury.

 

[edwin_m]

Apart from CrossCountry's service to Birmingham & Cardiff Central, Nottingham is not well serviced by long distance trains.

There is also the Liverpool-Norwich, which can equally be considered as long distance.

Part of the problem is that the land north and south of Nottingham is quite hilly and difficult to build railways. The easier routes are further west via the Derwent, Erewash and Soar valleys, meaning that on the early Midland network a north-south train via Nottingham had to enter from the west and reverse. Later lines such as the Great Central cut through some of these hilly areas, but by then travel patterns had been established by the older routes. When closures came in the 1960s, only the Midland offered a comprehensive network across the region and most of the later additions were shut down, returning Nottingham to the status of a branch line.

It probably didn't help either that most of the local railway management was in Derby.

 

[Magdalia]

The Nottingham area was a tangled spaghetti of 3 big pre grouping companies, the Midland, the Great Central and the Great Northern. Most of what survives today is ex Midland, apart from the line to Grantham, which is ex Great Northern. But all of them were primarily interested in moving coal not people.

It is easiest to start with the Midland because they built most of the surviving network. Their HQ was at Derby so, from their perspective, Nottingham was always secondary to Derby. In terms of timetables I can look easily look at the ER back to 1958: around 1960 Nottingham had express trains to/from St Pancras via the Oakham route and some of these ran through to Sheffield and Bradford Forster Square. The Waverley to/from Edinburgh also ran via Nottingham. I think there were possibly also Midland trains between Nottingham and Manchester but they didn't venture onto the Eastern Region, going via Derby and Matlock, so I know less about them. One other worth mentioning is the daily Cleethorpes to Birmingham and return.

The Great Central's London services were thinned out very early, but prior to 1960 they ran Marylebone to/from Sheffield, Manchester and Bradford Exchange calling at Nottingham Victoria. The only daytime cross country service was the Bournemouth to York (winter)/Newcastle (summer) and return, which ran via the Great Central right up to closure in 1966.

As far as I can tell the Great Northern didn't offer the people of Nottingham much in the way of daily long distance services.

Summer Saturdays were another story!

After the Beeching era rationalisation things changed. London trains ran via Leicester not Oakham, and at some point the Thames Clyde Express started to run via Nottingham. Another change came in 1973 when the North Country Continental boat train to/from Harwich was diverted to run via Nottingham. For a brief period in the 1980s these two were combined into through trains between Harwich and Glasgow.

 

[70014IronDuke]

This is something I noticed when I was at University at Nottingham. I suspect it had a lot to do with the Midland Railway choosing to route their mainline through Derby in the mid 19th central leaving Nottingham at the end of spur line.

Perhaps during this time Nottingham was less important economically then Derby.

Notthingham has only been 'the end of a spur line' in more recent years. Until about 67, it was on a 'straight' route St Pancras - Corby - Sheffield - (and earlier Leeds - Carlisle - Glasgow/Edinburgh), and even after this period until the early 1980s (I think, sorry, I was out of it then) had a one train per two hours St Pancras - Sheffield via Leicester, with a reversal in Nottingham.

It was only when, or soon after, the Midland got their shiny new HSTs that the operators decided to concentrate all* Sheffield expresses via Derby that your concept of a 'spur' came into being.

(* one or two morning/evening services still reversed in Nottingham to/from Leeds - HSTs went there for maintenance.)

Arguably, it gets a way better service than it did in those days, what with the MML to London, XC to Cardiff, NR to Leeds and EMR Liverpool - Norwich services - but it's still true that the Leeds service is effectively a stopper and certainly not 'inter-city' standard for the three important cities that it serves.

I think pre-Covid there was a plan to extend these trains to Bradford - would have been a useful addition, but I think either Northern should introduce another fast service to Leeds, or EMR should drop Sheffield from every second Liverpool train and run via Dore South curve to speed up the Nottingham - Manchester - Liverpool service and make if semi-decent on timings.

Not going to happen though.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Nottingham has regular services to Grimsby and Skegness, is which about as far as you can go in that general direction. It also has regular services to Leeds via Wakefield and to Stoke and Crewe. Quite apart from the attraction of these places in their own right the Leeds and Crewe services open up a very wide range of connections. It's not exactly cut off. These services are all fairly regular.

I'm not sure that the odd daytime train direct to Glasgow or Swindon, not necessarily at times that an individual passenger might have found convenient were as much use to folk in Nottingham as people might think.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Nottingham has regular services to Grimsby and Skegness, is which about as far as you can go in that general direction. It also has regular services to Leeds via Wakefield and to Stoke and Crewe. Quite apart from the attraction of these places in their own right the Leeds and Crewe services open up a very wide range of connections. It's not exactly cut off. These services are all fairly regular.

This is all true - but these services you mention are effectively local trains as far as speed goes. I think the OP is saying (as I would) that such 'services' - which are all that are available except London and XC - are incompatible with a city the size of Nottingham.

And as for the wonder of the Derby - Crewe line, ... when is the first train exactly on a Sunday that whisks you to Crewe for all your connections that way?

 

[ChrisC]

Looking at a railway map Nottingham does appear to be very much at the end of a spur line and not very well connected to the rest of the network. However, I think in reality that’s far from the case, and I find Nottingham to be very well connected with direct trains to many major cities and just needing one change of trains to reach many others.

There are 2tph to London, with journey times of under 2 hours. The Norwich to Liverpool train also serves, Sheffield, Manchester, Peterborough and Ely with connections to many destination. The Nottingham to Birmingham and Cardiff has been mentioned as have the trains to Leeds, and there’s also trains to Lincoln and Grimsby. The restoration of through trains to Crewe in recent years have opened up easier journeys to North Wales and the North West.

The major disadvantages are that on many routes from Nottingham there are overcrowded short formed trains. Even the MML trains to London are now down to 5 carriages. This is also true of connecting trains to many destinations. Also some journeys are very slow with both Manchester and Leeds journeys taking longer to reach than London. There have been numerous threads about the overcrowding on short formed Norwich to Liverpool route. Nottingham to Leeds is slow and can also be very overcrowded with 2 carriage trains owing to the restrictions at platform 17 at Leeds.

People often suggest bringing back the Nottingham to Glasgow trains via Settle. I don’t think this will ever happen but Glasgow, along with other destinations in Scotland is not an easy journey from Nottingham these days. Poor connections at Grantham do not help when very few trains to Newcastle, Edinburgh or further north in Scotland stop at Grantham. As XC no longer run through to Glasgow on a regular basis it is probably easiest to reach Glasgow by changing at either Manchester or Crewe. A long slow which ever route you take.

 

[edwin_m]

People often suggest bringing back the Nottingham to Glasgow trains via Settle. I don’t think this will ever happen but Glasgow, along with other destinations in Scotland is not an easy journey from Nottingham these days. Poor connections at Grantham do not help when very few trains to Newcastle, Edinburgh or further north in Scotland stop at Grantham. As XC no longer run through to Glasgow on a regular basis it is probably easiest to reach Glasgow by changing at either Manchester or Crewe. A long slow which ever route you take.

My journeys to Glasgow have been variously changing at Grantham/Edinburgh, Newark (walk between stations)/Edinburgh, Manchester, Manchester/Preston, and Warrington (walk between stations). Crewe didn't feature much, but this was before the direct trains came back. I avoid the most obvious route via Sheffield/Edinburgh because I don't want to be on a Voyager for that long. At least computerised journey planners make it somewhat easier to find the best option! I once found out just before starting out towards Newark that the wires were down on the ECML, and had my Advance ticket accepted via Preston instead - for which the total track shared with my original itinerary was half the platform length at Nottingham.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I avoid the most obvious route via Sheffield/Edinburgh because I don't want to be on a Voyager for that long.

O/T What an indictment to a modern design product.

 

[Welshman]

Notthingham has only been 'the end of a spur line' in more recent years. Until about 67, it was on a 'straight' route St Pancras - Corby - Sheffield - (and earlier Leeds - Carlisle - Glasgow/Edinburgh), and even after this period until the early 1980s (I think, sorry, I was out of it then) had a one train per two hours St Pancras - Sheffield via Leicester, with a reversal in Nottingham.

It was only when, or soon after, the Midland got their shiny new HSTs that the operators decided to concentrate all* Sheffield expresses via Derby that your concept of a 'spur' came into being.

(* one or two morning/evening services still reversed in Nottingham to/from Leeds - HSTs went there for maintenance.)

If I remember correctly another factor causing the concentration of all Sheffield expresses via Derby was that in those days, the route north of Nottingham to Chesterfield via the Erewash Valley was hampered by speed limits caused by mining subsidies, something of which the Derby route was relatively free.

 

[edwin_m]

If I remember correctly another factor causing the concentration of all Sheffield expresses via Derby was that in those days, the route north of Nottingham to Chesterfield via the Erewash Valley was hampered by speed limits caused by mining subsidies, something of which the Derby route was relatively free.

I think you or you autocorrect may mean subsidence ... though I suppose if the government hadn't been subsidisng the National Coal Board and its successors that might have been less of a problem.

However, the Erewash Valley is intrinsically a slower route with various fairly tight curves along the route that would prevent much speed being built up in between, whereas the original Stephenson alignment via Ambergate was much better laid out. Radford to Trowell was even slower, but upgraded a decade or so back.

 

[70014IronDuke]

However, the Erewash Valley is intrinsically a slower route with various fairly tight curves along the route that would prevent much speed being built up in between, whereas the original Stephenson alignment via Ambergate was much better laid out. Radford to Trowell was even slower, but upgraded a decade or so back.

Maybe, but it's shorter and it didn't stop BR re-routing the Master Cutler via the Erewash in c 1970 or 71 and, IIRC, saving something like 13 minutes over the Derby route. (It didn't stop at Derby, probably the only Sheffield Cl 1 train that didn't, back in those days.)

There was even an odd SuO HST from St Pancras (about 17.30?) that used to go via the Erewash up until, I forget, maybe 2012?

In the 1969s, the Erewash certainly used to be a succession of Class 45 roars to gain speed, quickly followed by brake applications for the next 20 mph PSR due to subsidence, but I think these had been eliminated by the 1990s? (Please correct if in error.)

 

[edwin_m]

Maybe, but it's shorter and it didn't stop BR re-routing the Master Cutler via the Erewash in c 1970 or 71 and, IIRC, saving something like 13 minutes over the Derby route. (It didn't stop at Derby, probably the only Sheffield Cl 1 train that didn't, back in those days.)

There was even an odd SuO HST from St Pancras (about 17.30?) that used to go via the Erewash up until, I forget, maybe 2012?

In the 1969s, the Erewash certainly used to be a succession of Class 45 roars to gain speed, quickly followed by brake applications for the next 20 mph PSR due to subsidence, but I think these had been eliminated by the 1990s? (Please correct if in error.)

Indeed, it was the quickest route for a service calling at neither Nottingham nor Derby, and may still be despite improvements via Ambergate in the early 2000s. But if a train had to call at one or the other then going via Derby was always quicker, and as time went on it became more and more difficult to justify missing both.

Even if the Nottingham-Melton route was intact, I doubt it would have through London-Nottingham or London-Sheffield trains today other than perhaps one or two per day, as there isn't the demand or the capacity into London to run separate services that avoid Leicester. It would most likely be served by running the Norwich train that way and avoiding the busy ECML south of Grantham.

 

[Grumpy]

However, the Erewash Valley is intrinsically a slower route with various fairly tight curves along the route that would prevent much speed being built up in between,

Where are these tight curves?
My impression was always that it was a reasonable route but speed restricted to minimise track/signalling costs eg the crawl through the pointwork at Trowell

 

[Stuart21]

O/T What an indictment to a modern design product.

I have travelled Truro to Edinburgh going via London rather than a direct Voyager via Brum. Travelling with luggage the voyager is to avoided at all costs.

 

[Halwynd]

Am I right in thinking there used to be a Nottingham to Glasgow service that ran via the S&C in years gone by? No doubt in the days of Nottingham Victoria, the network would have been even more substantial.

Does anyone have records of how/when Nottingham began to lose its direct services to Scotland and other destinations further afield?

The Nottingham - Glasgow stopped running via the S&C after the 1981-82 timetable. For 1982-83 it departed Nottingham at 09:32 and ran to Manchester Victoria and then via Parkside Jn to Wigan North Western where the diesel was changed for an electric. An Edinburgh portion was split at Carstairs. I *think* the southbound working ran from Preston to Manchester via Bolton, but my memory is a bit hazy about that.

 

[Western Sunset]

Where are these tight curves?
My impression was always that it was a reasonable route but speed restricted to minimise track/signalling costs eg the crawl through the pointwork at Trowell

Slow out of Nott at Mansfield Jn, Radford Jn and Trowell Jn, but largely OK after that.

 

[edwin_m]

Where are these tight curves?
My impression was always that it was a reasonable route but speed restricted to minimise track/signalling costs eg the crawl through the pointwork at Trowell

There are a few restrictions dropping below the general line speed, but looking at the OS map there are several curves of under 1km radius which would become constraints if any general increase was proposed.

 

[Taunton]

Nottingham's misfortune is that it is parallel to Derby on the route from London to Sheffield etc, and Derby is the speedier route for Sheffield trains. Furthermore the old route there via Melton Mowbray involved missing out Leicester, which probably provides more London passengers than any other on the line.

The usual UK paranoia about reversing trains en route also applies.

 

[MichaelAMW]

The usual UK paranoia about reversing trains en route also applies.

What makes you say that? Nottingham, to keep on topic, has regular services reversing at Sheffield, Ely, Grantham and Derby.

 

[Merle Haggard]

No one seems to have mentioned the once important Trent, closed as part of the 1968 resignalling, I think.

Grinding around the sharply curved Trent Station North Junction - Sawley Junction spur, memorable

The purpose was, by clever train planning, to provide a convenient Nottingham connection out of a Derby train, and v.v., not to mention an Erewash Valley providing connections to both. All cross-platform.

And with quite grand, though run down, facilities - including an enormous Gents'.

 

[Dr Hoo]

No one seems to have mentioned the once important Trent, closed as part of the 1968 resignalling, I think.

Grinding around the sharply curved Trent Station North Junction - Sawley Junction spur, memorable

The purpose was, by clever train planning, to provide a convenient Nottingham connection out of a Derby train, and v.v., not to mention an Erewash Valley providing connections to both. All cross-platform.

And with quite grand, though run down, facilities - including an enormous Gents'.

That tells its own story. Large numbers of (male) passengers waiting for ages because of what were actually often infrequent services and very poor connections.

For readers who may be unaware, for all intents and purposes there was no local/walk-in catchment at Trent. Basically interchange only.

 

[Mugby]

After the Glasgow service finished there was a loco hauled service from Nottingham to Leeds and I believe one actually started from Leicester.

It was in the 1980s, does anyone how long it lasted and how many timetabled journeys there were?

 

[Magdalia]

After the Glasgow service finished there was a loco hauled service from Nottingham to Leeds and I believe one actually started from Leicester.

It was in the 1980s, does anyone how long it lasted and how many timetabled journeys there were?

These were sprinter substitutions not booked loco hauled services. Nottingham-Leeds was one of the first routes to get sprinters and one diagram, 0725/1325 Nottingham-Leeds and 1027/1627 Leeds-Nottingham, frequently got a loco hauled train. On arrival back at Nottingham in the evening it then worked 1854 Nottingham-Leicester and 2210 Leicester-Sheffield. This was mainly (possibly entirely?) in the 1987/88 timetable.

Another sprinter turn that was frequently loco hauled at this time was 0718/1544 Nottingham-Blackpool and 1120/1944 back.

 

[ChrisC]

After the Glasgow service finished there was a loco hauled service from Nottingham to Leeds and I believe one actually started from Leicester.

It was in the 1980s, does anyone how long it lasted and how many timetabled journeys there were?

I may be wrong but I can’t remember there being more than one train in each direction a day. There was one from Nottingham to Leeds at around 0900 and this may at some stage have started at Leicester and there was a return from Leeds late afternoon. I used the morning one occasionally between Alfreton and Sheffield. It lasted until the Class 150 sprinters were introduced so probably 1984.

With the introduction of the 150’s a new inter urban service was introduced between Nottingham and Leeds which ran every 2 hours. It didn’t last long as it was withdrawn when the hourly Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street service was introduced. Also it was when this 2 hourly Nottingham to Leeds service was introduced that most Sheffield to London trains were concentrated on running via Derby instead of alternate trains running via the Erewash Valley with reversal at Nottingham. Nottingham to Sheffield was then served by a mixture of these Leeds services, occasional East Anglia to North West trains and Nottingham to Glasgow via Manchester trains plus peak time London trains. The introduction of the Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street route was a real game changer for Nottingham introducing far more regular trains to Sheffield and Manchester but at the expense of losing most of its direct trains to Leeds.

 

[Magdalia]

I may be wrong but I can’t remember there being more than one train in each direction a day. There was one from Nottingham to Leeds at around 0900 and this may at some stage have started at Leicester and there was a return from Leeds late afternoon.

I had forgotten this one, which I think ran in 1983, 1984 and 1985, utilising the stock off the down overnight train from St Pancras. In 1985 the full working was:

0645 Derby-Leicester
0740 Leicester-Leeds
1227 Leeds-Sheffield
1710 Sheffield-Nottingham
2120 Nottingham-Sheffield
2352 Sheffield-St Pancras