NPR will it ever happen?

[urbophile]

Maybe a cheaper but equally effective way of delivering the benefits of NPR at least to part of the route, would be not just electrify but quadruple the CLC line. I can see this would be difficult through Warrington and central Manchester, but otherwise the route is reasonably straight and level and is not too built up. Difficult to improve the cross-Pennine stretch without a lot of tunnelling though.

 

[Grimsby town]

Or by removing commuter trains from the mainline similar to Merseyrail/Crossrail.

Yes there's that option too. For Manchester though I don't think that is the correct solution beyond the odd additonal line converted to Metrolink. Manchester's railways largely cover its urban area well (unlike Leeds which has large gaps to the north of the city). Underground stations are complicated and expensive to build as we've seen with Crossrail.

If a simple Picc-Vic city style tunnel was built, it'd relieve the city centre but not solve the speed differentials between stoppers and fast trains and bottlenecks on the routes radiating out of the city. Something like a Stockport to Bolton tunnel would better solve the problem but would be very expensive and largey duplicate existing station locations. Why move the stopping services when we already have the local station infrastructure, we just don't stop many trains there?

 

[yorksrob]

Adding a few loops to the CLC route might help things.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Not at present! Cancellations are rife. More of a long-term problem is the CLC line which is still unnelectrified, and the restriction of the single through island platform at Piccadilly would not be tolerated in the south east. We are not talking about small impoverished towns but links between several of the largest and most important cities in the country. Anyway, express services between two places only 35 miles apart should take much less than 40 minutes.

On another thread somewhere, someone happened to mention how little use the Ordsall Chord is getting currently... if we could go back in time and choose whether to prioritise the chord or platforms 15 & 16 at Piccadilly there would only be one winner.

But hindsight is 20/20 of course!

 

[zwk500]

Maybe a cheaper but equally effective way of delivering the benefits of NPR at least to part of the route, would be not just electrify but quadruple the CLC line. I can see this would be difficult through Warrington and central Manchester, but otherwise the route is reasonably straight and level and is not too built up. Difficult to improve the cross-Pennine stretch without a lot of tunnelling though.

No, quadrupling it will not be cheaper for equivalent benefit.

Adding a few loops to the CLC route might help things.

What benefit would loops give? Electrifying the CLC makes sense (although there's an argument to do a Kirkby or Ormskirk-type arrangement at Warrington, but we won't go down that road for now). But the Chat Moss line is always going to be the quicker route.

 

[snowball]

Maybe a cheaper but equally effective way of delivering the benefits of NPR at least to part of the route, would be not just electrify but quadruple the CLC line. I can see this would be difficult through Warrington and central Manchester, but otherwise the route is reasonably straight and level and is not too built up.

Looking at OS mapping I'd sy about one mile in every two of the CLC line is built up. You don't mention Halewood, Widnes, Flixton, Urmston, Stretford. And you'd need somewhere for it to go in Manchester.

 

[Bantamzen]

Well quelle surprise, NPR is being lined up for the long grass...

Bradford Northern Powerhouse Rail station plan axed again, No 10 says

Northern leaders accuse the government of breaking promises to improve connections.

www.bbc.co.uk

Plans for a new high-speed railway station in Bradford have been axed, Downing Street has said.
Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has shelved predecessor Liz Truss's promise to build the station on a proposed line connecting Liverpool and Hull.
Ms Truss said last month she would reverse a decision to curtail the Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) project.
But Mr Sunak is to scale back the project as he looks to find £50bn in savings, No 10 confirmed.
The prime minister's official spokesman indicated he would revert to a watered-down version of the NPR scheme announced by Boris Johnson last November, and would abandon "any additional commitments" made during his predecessor's short term in No 10.
Under the pared-back scheme, known as the Integrated Rail Plan, proposals for a new high-speed line from Manchester to Leeds and a later extension from Liverpool to Hull would be replaced with an upgrade of the existing track.
"The government is of the view that this approach will deliver those benefits sooner than under alternative plans," the spokesman said.
Business Secretary Grant Shapps told the BBC: "The line itself can deliver a 33-minute journey from Manchester to Leeds, quadruple nearly the capacity of that line, and do so without having to wait an extra 20 years beyond the delivery of what the upgrade can do.
"There wasn't really much point in going and blasting new tunnels through the Pennines."

'A backward step'​

Northern leaders accused the government of breaking promises to improve transport connections between cities in Yorkshire and the North West.
Bradford Council leader Susan Hinchcliffe said: "We've got a plan for clean growth in Bradford and it includes a new station on an electrified line which connects us better to the rest of the North of England.
"I fail to see why any rational government, interested in promoting growth, wouldn't be interested in working with Bradford to deliver this plan which would provide for 27,000 jobs and a £3 billion annual uplift to the economy."
West Yorkshire Mayor Tracy Brabin said it would be a "backward step not to build Northern Powerhouse Rail in full with a stop in Bradford".
"The government's constant dither and delay is costing our regional economy almost £2 billion per year," she added.
Shadow transport secretary Louise Haigh accused the government of having "crashed the economy" and making "northern communities pay the price".
"A lost decade of broken Tory promises has left the North with second-rate infrastructure, and rail services in crisis, holding the economy back," the Labour MP for Sheffield Heeley said.
"Rishi Sunak told voters he would deliver Northern Powerhouse Rail, before abandoning it at the first opportunity."
Steve Rotheram, Mayor of the Liverpool City Region, said: "This news doesn't come as a surprise, because it is exactly what myself and other leaders across the North have been claiming and campaigning so vigorously to avoid.
"The government has continually reneged on promises to connect Liverpool and other great Northern cities - leaving ordinary people cut off from accessing work, education, training opportunities - and each other."
A report last year found Bradford had the worst rail connections of any major British city.

I'm not going to say "told you so", but I'm thinking it loudly...

 

[Parjon]

On another thread somewhere, someone happened to mention how little use the Ordsall Chord is getting currently... if we could go back in time and choose whether to prioritise the chord or platforms 15 & 16 at Piccadilly there would only be one winner.

But hindsight is 20/20 of course!

Forecasting and common sense would have done pretty well too, though!

I think on the topic at hand this forum needs a "Fantastical Discussion" thread, rather than just "Speculative".

Sunak is a super-toff. If it's not about jobs in banking, wealth management or serving him fine wine in fine dining establishments, there is no value in investing as far as he will be concerned.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Well quelle surprise, NPR is being lined up for the long grass...

Bradford Northern Powerhouse Rail station plan axed again, No 10 says

Northern leaders accuse the government of breaking promises to improve connections.

www.bbc.co.uk

I'm not going to say "told you so", but I'm thinking it loudly...

I had the exact same thought the moment Listless Truss made her "NPR will serve Bradford" announcement.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Personally I would shelve it, and instead for the moment do some platform extensions to allow TPE to run 4tph of reliable service across the Pennines at 10 cars on all services (portion working could allow frequencies at the east end to be enhanced), with a rolling electrification programme as and when. That's enough capacity for years, it's not the south WCML.

How many stations called at by TPE would need platform extensions to allow for 10 car service trains? Incidentally, what is the maximum train car that can be handled at Manchester Airport railway station...or is it now called Ringway railway station?

 

[Bantamzen]

I had the exact same thought the moment Listless Truss made her "NPR will serve Bradford" announcement.

To be fair I've had it all along. I did like the idea, don't get me wrong, but from the first rumours of a new alignment under the Pennines wandered down off the moors I was somewhat cynical. Especially under a Tory government. And with that and HS2b scuppered all that remains is for HS2a to also go under the axe.

 

[matacaster]

Well quelle surprise, NPR is being lined up for the long grass...

Bradford Northern Powerhouse Rail station plan axed again, No 10 says

Northern leaders accuse the government of breaking promises to improve connections.

www.bbc.co.uk

I'm not going to say "told you so", but I'm thinking it loudly...

I was also correct!

 

[Sonik]

HS2 2B is essential for NPR - it might not contribute practically, but I would be unsurprised to see it canned to make a point (but 1 and 2A remain).

NPR is perhaps more intertwined with HS2 than has been made public, the suggestion a while back is that the 'alternative Golbourne link' would start from Warrington. I haven't seen anything that suggests this might have changed, and remember that 2b to Manchester has a negative BCR without Golbourne.

In which case the Liverpool-Manchester bit of NPR gets done by default. What happens to the east of Manchester is more of an open question.

 

[Bantamzen]

NPR is perhaps more intertwined with HS2 than has been made public, the suggestion a while back is that the 'alternative Golbourne link' would start from Warrington. I haven't seen anything that suggests this might have changed, and remember that 2b to Manchester has a negative BCR without Golbourne.

In which case the Liverpool-Manchester bit of NPR gets done by default. What happens to the east of Manchester is more of an open question.

Without a new alignment east of the Pennines, the western leg of NPR withers and dies. And that in turn will depreciate HS2a.

Get ready for lots more bad news as cuts start to bite hard.

 

[Sonik]

Without a new alignment east of the Pennines, the western leg of NPR withers and dies. And that in turn will depreciate HS2a.

In reality though, there never was a new alignment East of the Pennines, outside a few fantasy ideas by politicians.

No disrespect to Bradford, which could surely do with better connectivity, but no government was ever going to spend £21b just to get HSR there. That's more than the cost of HS2 to Manchester, which already doesn't have a business case on it's own.

But if 2b to Manchester does get built, to which the government has already committed, connections to Bradford using improvements to existing lines, and maybe even some new bits, will enhance the overall BCR.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Nov 2022 ==

TfGM quite rightly want local stations to be served by a clock face 15 minute headway. That will require removing intercity trains from the local network above what HS2 delivers. That's why NPR is needed at least between Warrington and Marsden.

I agree, NPR is not just about express services, it also fixes a lot of the issues in central Manchester.

And there is always the option to connect 'NPR' to the existing line at Ashburys, perhaps with four tracks reinstated as far as Guide Bridge, either as an interim or permanent solution.

That would still allow NPR services through Manchester to bypass Castlefeild completely, with minimal additional cost and delivery time over the HS2 build.

 

[Manutd1999]

TfGM quite rightly want local stations to be served by a clock face 15 minute headway. That will require removing intercity trains from the local network above what HS2 delivers. That's why NPR is needed at least between Warrington and Marsden.

There is currently 1ph TPE service through Castlefield. The capacity constraints there will not be solved by HS2 or NPR.

NPR is perhaps more intertwined with HS2 than has been made public, the suggestion a while back is that the 'alternative Golbourne link' would start from Warrington. I haven't seen anything that suggests this might have changed, and remember that 2b to Manchester has a negative BCR without Golbourne.

In which case the Liverpool-Manchester bit of NPR gets done by default. What happens to the east of Manchester is more of an open question.

This is not the worst idea, with a new junction immediately south of the Airport, branching off to join the WCML south of Warrington. A separate branch would then be needed to connect to either an upgraded CLC or 'Fiddlers Ferry' route into Liverpool.

East of Manchester, a full electrification of the Transpennine route, plus reinstating some 3/4-track sections around Guide Bridge and Marsden, would be sufficient for 6ph 'fast' services plus local stoppers. That is more than enough capacity.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

East of Manchester, a full electrification of the Transpennine route, plus reinstating some 3/4-track sections around Guide Bridge and Marsden, would be sufficient for 6ph 'fast' services plus local stoppers. That is more than enough capacity.

Has there ever been a 3/4 track line from Guide Bridge to Stalybridge?

 

[Glenn1969]

Has there ever been a 3/4 track line from Guide Bridge to Stalybridge?

I think HS2 Phase 2 will be axed to plug the £50bn black hole in the finances when Hunt males his statement on 17th November

 

[JonathanH]

I think HS2 Phase 2 will be axed to plug the £50bn black hole in the finances when Hunt males his statement on 17th November

Pushing out timescales (ie announcing a pause) will be another option. Presumably a full-on axe would still safeguard the route.

 

[david1212]

Proposals to build some of NPR and call it HS2 are/were a mega fudge.

Given the parts of HS2 that are committed whatever if indeed anything is ever done it should be in some form the eastern arm Birmingham - East Midlands ( as an area not specifically the airport station ) - Sheffield - Leeds - York. The topology and existing city centre buildings mean there is no easy way to have a single High Speed line that achieves this but that discussion is not for this thread.

NPR is about increased services, additional routes, reduced journey times and freight capacity across several routes covering Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Doncaster, Bradford, Leeds with the benefits onwards west to Chester and Wales plus east to York and Hull. IMO to support the construction industry at least part this should have been approved not the first stage of HS2.

As to the thread title ' NPR will any of it ever happen? ' ( my addition in italics ) long term that depends on future governments, their transport policy and whatever else happens that is unknown e.g. Russian military action and gas supply, Covid or another epidemic etc.

Short term inevitably the can will just be kicked along the road as Sunak's has a single priority of the £50bn black hole. Medium term depends on the next government and how much the black hole has been shrunk. Just like Liss Truss Labour are extremely unlikely to find a forest of Magic Money Trees so can only gain funding from increased taxation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How many stations called at by TPE would need platform extensions to allow for 10 car service trains? Incidentally, what is the maximum train car that can be handled at Manchester Airport railway station...or is it now called Ringway railway station?

It doesn't overly matter. Extending every platform on the current TPE network to 10 car (and using SDO for any where it's physically impossible) would be way, way cheaper than building NPR.

My view is that TPE should cease serving Manchester Airport entirely, with a Merseyrail style 4tph service operating on the Styal Line instead (simple = punctual). However, if you did want to keep it it takes only a quick look at Google Earth to see that there's loads of room to extend the two outer platforms if needs be - pretty much the entire spur is surrounded by ground level car parking.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

My view is that TPE should cease serving Manchester Airport entirely, with a Merseyrail style 4tph service operating on the Styal Line instead (simple = punctual). However, if you did want to keep it it takes only a quick look at Google Earth to see that there's loads of room to extend the two outer platforms if needs be - pretty much the entire spur is surrounded by ground level car parking.

I suppose that Manchester Airport will have their own views on that matter, especially as they are the facility to which prospective travellers travel to. Would you also suggest a similar 4tph service for Gatwick Airport?

Again, the mention of moving existing car parking spaces in the area that you mention refers to car parking spaces currently part of large airport hotels and I am sure that their legal teams would most certainly fight that proposal in the courts. I am sure that the railway station is situating in a cutting and the removal of the adjacent airport hotel parking spaces to accommodate your referred-to platform extensions would have to allow for ground excavations as well as the changes required to the road overbridges in the area.

Failing those options, you can always send all airport traffic, road, tram and rail to your favourite Ringway airport which I suppose is not too far away from the existing airport....

 

[mike57]

My view is that TPE should cease serving Manchester Airport entirely

I agree, and forget Manchester Victoria unless you are carrying on to Liverpool, terminate everything else in the low number platforms at Pic, running via Guide Bridge. From Guide Bridge into Manchester most of the original 4 track formation survives and use could be made of it, the railway infrastructure has encroached quite heavily in places (ramps, footbridges) but there appears to be no outside encroachment so if you wanted to restore it looks to be possible. Forget Ordsal Chord and running through Castlefield for TPE services. The only reason for regional trains to terminate at the Airport is services from the North and west coming into 13/14 at Pic, which need a 'turn round' station. The paths freed up by TPE could then be used by the airport shuttle. Some 'Next Airport Train from Platform xx' signs would be needed on all Pic platforms, but thats a small outlay. If you wanted to spend money there is room to add a platform 0 at Man Pic by the look of things.

As for portion working in the east, the issue is finding a location to split/join where its not going to impact other services. The only split I could see maybe working is Scarborough/Middlebrough, when the joining Scarborough portion could wait in Platform 4 until the Middlesbrough portion arrives in 3 or 5, as Platform 4 only serves the Scarborough branch, so it isnt blocking the ECML, but may not be worth the trouble, as the 4 eastern desitinations give 4tph fast Leeds Manchester.

Given current infrastructure I would operate the 4 tph fast and only call at York (for 3tph) Leeds & Huddersfield, into/out of Manchester with 1 through to Liverpool via Vic and the remaining 3 terminating at Pic. At the eastern end 1 tph each to Hull, Scarborough, Middlesbrough and Newcastle. with the Newcastle service being the Liverpool service at the eastern end. A proper Inter City service, with NO smaller intermediate stops between York and Manchester,, that avoids platform length issues in the core, and run the longest service that can be accomodated at these calls, I suspect Huddersfield will be your limit for train length, would it take a 7 car 80x?. For the outer reaches at the Eastern end SDO and clear signage in the carriages.

You would then have 2 Leeds Manchester stoppers per hour, with maybe one of them split at Huddersfield to aid pathing. You get 1tph through between all stations, and 2 tph with a change. Ultimately these should be run by Northern with the displaced 185s once the TOC issues are resolved and new stock is delivered. Once electrification is complete these are then replaced by EMUs

This service pattern could be run immediately as no infrastructure improvements would be needed, and improvement that are later delivered like 4 tracking will help to reduce journey time and longer trains will improve capacity once new units are delivered. Buy/lease more 80x units, to lengthen existing units and relace all other TPE stock. Consistent fleet = less training and more flexibilty.

In terms of passenger perception the service would be almost turn up and go between York and Manchester, with a worst case 20 min wait if you have just missed a train.

This solution could be delivered tomorrow if the current TOC were capable of actually running the service. The improvements are then to rolling stock rather than infrastructure, and would be delivered over the next couple of years. Using 80x means that as electrification is completed/already in place it can be used. I would not attempt to run 'TPE' trains north of Newcastle, it just complicates things, and the only place that gains some through services is Huddersfield. Concentrate resources and effort on the core service, the same east of Middlesbrough, thats a local service.

The advantage with this solution is it a 'now' solution to a route which has suffered badly during the last 4 years with appalling reliability. Journey time might not be as good as would be hoped for, but given the current state of the route this level of reliable service would be much more attractive than a jam tomorrow solution that ends up being like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

As to what to do about the incumbent TOC on the route, that has been discussed here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/transpennine-woes-and-a-moan.232854 My own preference would be to replace them, but others have said the current problems are not (all) their fault. As a regular user of this route they are my contact point with the service, and in my eyes they have failed consistently over the last 4 years, and its time for a change, but thats just my opinion.

With the current spending contraints and the dire economic state I dont see any further improvements to the transpennine route or NPR beyond what has already started and things like a Standedge 'base tunnel' are just pie in the sky. I could even see work on the Hudderfield - Dewsbury section being paused, slowed or whatever if the government can save some money, I dont know what contracts have been let. As to electrification, progress has been glacial to date, and completion is at least 10 and probably 15 years away, so any solution has to be based around bi-modes for the core, and bearing in mind electification of the 3 non electrified eastern end destinations is not even on the horizon the bi-modes will probably see most of their service life on this route. As the economic situation improves further improvements could then be made with the aim being initally journey time rather than capacity, and if capacity later proves inadequate sort platform lengths out and run even longer trains, its a better solution than trying to cram more services down a mainly two track route.

 

[Bantamzen]

So whilst the idea of neat, clockface, 10 car TPEs running through the TPE core is a reasonable suggestion, I seriously doubt that any additional platform work would be done until after the TRU works are done. Also it's worth remembering that during this period TPEs will need to use the Calder Valley route as a diversion during periods of it, which may include the need to reverse at Bradford. So having 10 car units might cause more issues than they are worth until the upgrade is complete.

As for the old chestnut of the airport, you could terminate 2 of the 4 hourly TPEs at Piccadilly. But keep in mind the whole point of Ordsall was to reduce congestion in the throat and in the shed. Throwing 2 ten unit 80xs into the mix has the potential to cause yet more problems, especially remembering that you still have at least one stopper, possibly 2 as suggested above to also accommodate. Could get cosy. Plus if the extra Manchester capacity attracts more airport punters, that's more suitcases being wheeled around an already busy station, and could be even more fun if P13/14 are involved.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As for the old chestnut of the airport, you could terminate 2 of the 4 hourly TPEs at Piccadilly. But keep in mind the whole point of Ordsall was to reduce congestion in the throat and in the shed. Throwing 2 ten unit 80xs into the mix has the potential to cause yet more problems, especially remembering that you still have at least one stopper, possibly 2 as suggested above to also accommodate. Could get cosy. Plus if the extra Manchester capacity attracts more airport punters, that's more suitcases being wheeled around an already busy station, and could be even more fun if P13/14 are involved.

Nowhere near as much of a problem as the Chord has caused and is causing. It really should never have been built.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2022 ==

I suppose that Manchester Airport will have their own views on that matter, especially as they are the facility to which prospective travellers travel to. Would you also suggest a similar 4tph service for Gatwick Airport?

Gatwick is far further away from London than Manchester Airport is from Manchester, so the concepts aren't the same, nor is it on a spur. I don't think there's another UK airport in the same position to be able to compare it. Liverpool would be if the 4tph Hunts Cross service was extended there.

Again, the mention of moving existing car parking spaces in the area that you mention refers to car parking spaces currently part of large airport hotels and I am sure that their legal teams would most certainly fight that proposal in the courts.

You reckon? As long as they were provided alternative parking at the railway's cost (car parks are cheap) I can't seem them caring. You could even stick a raft over the railway and keep it where it is.

I am sure that the railway station is situating in a cutting and the removal of the adjacent airport hotel parking spaces to accommodate your referred-to platform extensions would have to allow for ground excavations as well as the changes required to the road overbridges in the area.

Still cheaper than NPR.

Failing those options, you can always send all airport traffic, road, tram and rail to your favourite Ringway airport which I suppose is not too far away from the existing airport....

Given how dire the airport is at the moment (used it recently?) I reckon lots of people would be happy for it, or at least its terminal, to be razed and started again!

 

[Bantamzen]

Nowhere near as much of a problem as the Chord has caused and is causing. It really should never have been built.

We're risking flying off topic here, but briefly the problems aren't the chord or Castlefield but the regular delays getting there and services tripping over each other along with crew changes in the corridor. The problems at Piccadilly existed before which is why Ordsall was built in the first place. Sort out service efficiency, maybe knock Deansgate on the head and things would be better. Not perfect but definitely better.

 

[mike57]

maybe knock Deansgate on the head and things would be better.

I've often wondered about the proximity of Deansgate and Oxford Road, problem is Deansgate is now the tram interchange. My own view is you would be better having local service round Ordsal, maybe a Stalybridge - Airport service once wires reach there

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've often wondered about the proximity of Deansgate and Oxford Road, problem is Deansgate is now the tram interchange. My own view is you would be better having local service round Ordsal, maybe a Stalybridge - Airport service once wires reach there

If we have anything on it I'd agree it should be part of an "S-Bahn". Stalybridge to Manchester Airport twice an hour might be a reasonable bet, with long layovers at both ends so it always makes its paths, and a single crew working it throughout, so we pretty much know if it leaves one end on time it will arrive at the other on time.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Given how dire the airport is at the moment (used it recently?) I reckon lots of people would be happy for it, or at least its terminal, to be razed and started again!

"Its terminal"? Are you aware of the number of terminals there are at the two-runway Manchester Airport?

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Its terminal"? Are you aware of the number of terminals there are at the two-runway Manchester Airport?

Three, I believe.

My bad experience was with T1. The most awful UK airport without a doubt. A horrible, badly run bodge. The only airport in the UK where "arrive three or more hours in advance" is definitely prudent. Never again.

(My Dad tells me T2 is a bit better)