Nuneham Viaduct shut - Didcot- Oxford

[mr_moo]

It's been nominally 1.435m for quite some time now.

 

[Tester]

It's been nominally 1.435m for quite some time now.

When I went for my first BR interview in 1972 I was asked what the gauge was and answered in metric (1.432/1.435 then) - so definitely quite some time!

 

[Bald Rick]

It's been nominally 1.435m for quite some time now.

1435mm dear boy!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jun 2023 ==

What's the reason behind using metric measurements for new schemes when the rest of the railway uses miles, chains and yards?

It’s not just new schemes. Electrification has been specified in km for at least 40 years - see the ID plates on the masts. As has signalling as @Annetts key says - see the identifiers on equipment cabinets.

it’s not an issue.

 

[zwk500]

What's the reason behind using metric measurements for new schemes when the rest of the railway uses miles, chains and yards? When conversion has to take place between the two systems in the manner you describe that sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Only locations and speed limits now still use miles and chains. Everything else about the railway is specified in metric. Even Crossrail core section uses metric increments converted to imperial for speeds and the Cambrian, XR Core, HS1 all use km/m rather than mi/ch for the Sectional appendix.

 

[mr_moo]

1435mm dear boy!

Of course Sire!

(I completely didn't write it like that just to see who would comment...)

 

[12LDA28C]

Only locations and speed limits now still use miles and chains. Everything else about the railway is specified in metric. Even Crossrail core section uses metric increments converted to imperial for speeds and the Cambrian, XR Core, HS1 all use km/m rather than mi/ch for the Sectional appendix.

So why not decimalise the whole lot and have kilometre posts, speed in km/h and so on? Surely it's not ideal to have two units of measurement in use concurrently leading to conversions having to be made. The Cambrian, XR core and HS1 are the exceptions I alluded to but they hardly constitute the majority of the UK network.

 

[snowball]

The entire UK civil engineering industry switched to metric about 50 years ago, including the design of roads, bridges etc. Electrification masts on the WCML are numbered in miles or kilometres, depending on whether you look south or north of Weaver Junction. Road maintenance has been metric since then. The outlier is that the railways continue to use imperial for some purposes.

 

[zwk500]

So why not decimalise the whole lot and have kilometre posts, speed in km/h and so on? Surely it's not ideal to have two units of measurement in use concurrently leading to conversions having to be made.

Because it means replacing the entire Sectional appendix and every single Speed limit sign which costs too much. They tried to replace the 2/3rds rule on the Southern Region in a determined push at one point, and then about 2 years later the standards rather sheepishly changed to 'we haven't got the money so now it'll just slowly get replaced as and when areas get remodelled'.
ETCS will, AIUI, be done in metric, so you may see the changeover at some point in the long distant future.

 

[edwin_m]

Because it means replacing the entire Sectional appendix and every single Speed limit sign which costs too much. They tried to replace the 2/3rds rule on the Southern Region in a determined push at one point, and then about 2 years later the standards rather sheepishly changed to 'we haven't got the money so now it'll just slowly get replaced as and when areas get remodelled'.
ETCS will, AIUI, be done in metric, so you may see the changeover at some point in the long distant future.

Also all train speedometers would need to change and, probably most significant, there would be hazards related to drivers getting confused between the units when they have to swap from one to the other. This is less of a problem if done in conjunction with ETCS, as it will stop any driver trying to do 100mph in a 100km/h limit.

 

[Pigeon]

So why not decimalise the whole lot and have kilometre posts, speed in km/h and so on? Surely it's not ideal to have two units of measurement in use concurrently leading to conversions having to be made.

You could say the conversion from one system to the other has come to a halt at a natural boundary point. The way it's ended up, the two different systems are being used each in their own different context, each by different sets of people for different purposes. So there is far less call than you might expect of needing to convert from one to the other, and when the need does arise it usually does so in a pretty obvious manner that makes it explicit what you're doing, so it's a lot harder to forget and get mixed up than it would be say for drivers having to remember that all their everyday numbers are suddenly different.

 

[Bald Rick]

Of course Sire!

(I completely didn't write it like that just to see who would comment...)

 

[Lloyds siding]

I was working close to the line today, and there seemed to be quite a bit of freight now the route has reopened.
It is impressive what can be achieved in infrastructure construction in a short period of time...this viaduct is one, Workington North was another. One I made use of was the extended platform and resited signalling to accommodate Pendolinos during the reconstruction of Liverpool Lime Street. Well done to Network Rail and theirr contractors!

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

Really? Interesting. I always knew it as four foot eight and a half, if I asked anyone I know what the UK standard gauge is that is the answer they would give. I appreciate someone who works in infrastructure planning, renewals and so on might have a different unit of measurement.

What's the reason behind using metric measurements for new schemes when the rest of the railway uses miles, chains and yards? When conversion has to take place between the two systems in the manner you describe that sounds like a recipe for disaster.

All the original records of bridges, tunnels and so on are miles, chains, &c., as are (I suspect) the deposited plans for the original Acts. Comments above about the age of many structures reflect the fact that these old records (some with very illustrious gentlemen's autographs) are still current.
Pat

 

[Irascible]

So why not decimalise the whole lot and have kilometre posts, speed in km/h and so on?

You could ask the same of the road network. Building it in km & operating it in miles seems to work.

--

I like this project, it's restored some positive outlook. Well done all involved!

 

[Essan]

I can tell from my bedroom window that trains are now running through to Paddington again: Evesham car park is the fullest it's been since before Covid!

 

[webweasel]

You could ask the same of the road network. Building it in km & operating it in miles seems to work.

OT but it’s a good question. Especially yards. What is a yard? I’m in my late 40s and have never been taught this! I just know it as a poor man’s metre! Can we redefine a metric mile as 1.5km (a metric foot as 300mm) and keep all the old signs?

 

[edwin_m]

OT but it’s a good question. Especially yards. What is a yard? I’m in my late 40s and have never been taught this! I just know it as a poor man’s metre! Can we redefine a metric mile as 1.5km (a metric foot as 300mm) and keep all the old signs?

The imperial units are now defined in terms of metric units in any case, but the numbers have been chosen to keep them about the same as before. A yard as 900mm would be over 10% "out", not ideal for many purposes.

 

[snowball]

OT but it’s a good question. Especially yards. What is a yard?

A yard is 0.9144m. The "standard" platform height is 0.915m so it was probably once defined as one yard.

 

[Irascible]

OT but it’s a good question. Especially yards. What is a yard? I’m in my late 40s and have never been taught this! I just know it as a poor man’s metre! Can we redefine a metric mile as 1.5km (a metric foot as 300mm) and keep all the old signs?

A yard is half a fathom! ( also three feet ), which is probably the length of someone's leg - there were usually practical reasons for old measures.

I believe there's an ISO that defines a metric foot as 300mm. Wasn't the BBC centre at Shephard's bush built in metric feet? anyway somewhat tangential, other than we have a lot of infrastructure built in inches & maintained in mm, and we seem to manage ok

 

[Class 170101]

Road maintenance has been metric since then. The outlier is that the railways continue to use imperial for some purposes.

Though they still tell you in yards when approaching the road maintenance (Roadworks)

Imperial will still be around with us for years to come.

How do forum members think
Roadworks 100 metres or 100 yards
Usain Bolt; did he win the 100m or the 100 yard sprint at the Olympics
Beer - 1 pint or 568ml
Railway track guage 1435mm or 4ft 8½in
Height in feet and inches or metres and cm
Weight in stones and pounds or gramns and kilograms

I bet people use a mix of these without thinking about it

 

[swt_passenger]

A yard is half a fathom! ( also three feet ), which is probably the length of someone's leg - there were usually practical reasons for old measures.

A fathom was originally the span of the fully extended arms, measured between the fingertips, of a “large man” - eventually standardised as 6 feet. My source didn’t actually define a large man though…

But is this still really on topic…

 

[GRALISTAIR]

As I live in the USA I use both.

 

[zwk500]

FWIW

How do forum members think
Roadworks 100 metres or 100 yards - Yards as that's what the signs say
Usain Bolt; did he win the 100m or the 100 yard sprint at the Olympics - meters as that's the definition of the event
Beer - 1 pint or 568ml - in the UK pints, in Europe cl
Railway track guage 1435mm or 4ft 8½in - 1435mm.
Height in feet and inches or metres and cm - for my personal height, feet, but if quoting heights of other things depends who I'm talking to as to whether it's m or ft.
Weight in stones and pounds or gramns and kilograms - personal weight in both, every other weight in grams/kilos.

I bet people use a mix of these without thinking about it

I used a mix of metric and imperial before coming out to Europe - the only unit that changed was beer being in metric out here. I'm in my late twenties and was taught how imperial units worked and basic conversions as a child (maybe more from my parents than school) although the one I can never remember when I need it is Pounds and ounces to Kilos.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Way way way easier to think in metric though.

e.g. Accelerate a 1 kg mass at 1 m.s^_2 you have used 1 Newton of force.
Move 1 Newton through a meter and you use 1 Joule of energy.
use energy at the rate of 1 Joule per second and that is 1 Watt of power etc.

 

[snowball]

Way way way easier to think in metric though.

e.g. Accelerate a 1 kg mass at 1 m.s^_2 you have used 1 Newton of force.
Move 1 Newton through a meter and you use 1 Joule of energy.
use energy at the rate of 1 Joule per second and that is 1 Watt of power etc.

And of course a newton is near enough the weight of an apple.

 

[Mag_seven]

OK I think we will draw this discussion to a close, what with the viaduct now open again.

Thanks all.

 

[Cowley]

Thread reopened for @mr_moo to add some information.

 

[mr_moo]

Thanks Cowley.

For anyone interested in hearing more about this, there's a PWI presentation coming up. It's in-person in Cardiff, but will also be broadcast online, so should be freely available to anyone. It'll be broadcast live with a chance to ask the speaker questions etc if you wish.

Here's the info:

Nuneham Viaduct emergency bridge repairs - The PWI

South & West Wales Section hybrid meeting

www.thepwi.org

It's on November 13th at 17:15.

Nuneham Viaduct emergency bridge repairs​

November 13 @ 17:15 - 18:15​

Mike Smith, Network Rail​

South & West Wales Section hybrid meeting​

Meeting in-person from 16:45 with light refreshments for a 17:15 start for all.
You can also join the meeting virtually through Microsoft Teams.
Join on your computer, mobile app or room device
Click here to join the meeting
Meeting ID: 323 830 767 664
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