Off-Peak restrictions: Reading to London

[mathmo]

Can someone with NFM04 access please post the current restrictions for a Reading - London Terminals Off-Peak Day Return (the FGW-priced one - going on SWT takes forever)? My NFM03 says that the only restriction is arriving into London at or after 1000, with no evening restriction. Yet the journey planners produce a completely weird list of acceptable return trains in the evening peak, sometimes slow, sometimes semi-fast and occasionally fast.

Thanks!

 

[glynn80]

Can someone with NFM04 access please post the current restrictions for a Reading - London Terminals Off-Peak Day Return (the FGW-priced one - going on SWT takes forever)? My NFM03 says that the only restriction is arriving into London at or after 1000, with no evening restriction. Yet the journey planners produce a completely weird list of acceptable return trains in the evening peak, sometimes slow, sometimes semi-fast and occasionally fast.

NFM04 has the following listed for the Any Permitted CDR priced by FGW:

Validity Code P7

Restriction Applies:
Monday to Friday only. No travel restrictions on other days.

Outward Travel
By any train scheduled to arrive London Terminals or Kensington Olympia at or after 1000.

Return Travel
By any train.

So it is identical to the restrictions listed in NFM03. I can't comment on the services the journey planners are offering but I can confirm you are valid on any service that conforms to the above.

 

[John @ home]

NFM04 has the following listed for the Any Permitted CDR priced by FGW ... So it is identical to the restrictions listed in NFM03.

Agreed. The ticket has no restrictions in the evening peak.

I can confirm you are valid on any service that conforms to the above.

Not necessarily. For several decades, BR Western Region then Great Western then fGW have had train restrictions as well as ticket restrictions in the evening peak. The latest info I can find in the public domain is:

CD-CHEAP DAY
FCR-FIRST CHEAP DAY
OD-OFF-PEAK DAY TRAVELCARD
OTF-OFF-PEAK DAY TRAVELCARD FIRST
FTC-FAMILY TRAVELCARD

*** FURTHER RESTRICTIONS FOR FIRST GREAT WESTERN & VIRGIN TRAINS SERVICES ARE SHOWN ON TICKET SUMMARY PAGE - E34 ***

Tickets may not be used Monday to Friday on the following departures:
From London Paddington - From Reading - Final Destination of service
1600 1627 Bristol Temple Meads [BRI]
1605 1632 Penzance [PNZ]
1615 1641 Swansea [SWA]
1621 1653 Oxford [OXF]
1630 1657 Taunton [TAU]
1633 1704 Exeter St David’s [EXD]
1645 1711 Swansea [SWA]
1651 1717 Oxford [OXF]
1700 1727 Bristol Temple Meads [BRI]
1703 1732 Penzance [PNZ]
1706 1737 Westbury [WSB]
1715 1741 Swansea [SWA]
1722 1750 Hereford [HFD]
1730 1757 Taunton [TAU]
1733 1802 Paignton [PGN]
1745 1811 Carmarthen [CMN]
1746 1816 Cheltenham Spa [CNM]
1751 1821 Worcester Shrub Hill [WOS]
1800 1827 Bristol Temple Meads [BRI]
1803 1832 Penzance [PNZ]
1806 1836 Frome [FRO]
1815 1841 Swansea [SWA]
1821 1851 Hereford [HFD]
1830 1857 Weston super Mare [WSM]
1836 1903 Exeter St Davids [EXD]
1845 1911 Swansea [SWA]
1848 1916 Cheltenham Spa [CNM]
1852 1922 Oxford [OXF]
1900 1927 Bristol Temple Meads [BRI]
1905 1932 Penzance [PNZ]
1915 1941 Swansea [SWA]

NFM 98 was the last printed Fares Manual but it expired more than a year ago. I can't immediately find the current version of the list online, but it must be in the public domain somewhere otherwise the restrictions can't be enforced.

John

 

[yorkie]

Originally it was valid on FGW Link but not FGW, then when they merged I think they said something along the lines that it was valid on Turbos and not valid on HSTs. I'm not sure if there were any Adelantes at peak time or not and if so where they came into it.

If the new restrictions say that the ticket is "Valid on any train" then it should be.

Restrictions apply to tickets, not trains. They can have rules for the ticket that bars them from specific trains, but they can't have a case of tickets being "valid for any train" and then saying "off peak tickets cannot be used on this train" as the system does not work like that.

Either the ticket issuing systems have the old restrictions or the restrictions are still in place and the "Valid on any train" text is an error. But if the "error" is in both FRPP and NFM then it is difficult to see how any restriction can possibly be enforced!

 

[glynn80]

For several decades, BR Western Region then Great Western then fGW have had train restrictions as well as ticket restrictions in the evening peak. The latest info I can find in the public domain is:
...
NFM 98 was the last printed Fares Manual but it expired more than a year ago. I can't immediately find the current version of the list online, but it must be in the public domain somewhere otherwise the restrictions can't be enforced.

Yes, I do apoligise, the evening barred trains completely slipped my mind.

The FRPP states the following with regard to the evening barred trains for Off Peak Day tickets:

First Great Western evening barred trains

Tickets may not be used on the following services, Monday to Friday:

From London Paddington- Reading- Final Destination of Service
1600- 1628- Bristol Temple Meads
1606- 1633- Penzance
1615- 1642- Swansea
1630- 1659- Taunton
1633- 1705- Exeter St Davids / Plymouth
1645- 1712- Swansea
1651- 1718- Oxford
1700- 1727- Bristol Temple Meads
1703- 1732- Penzance
1715- 1743- Swansea
1722- 1751- Hereford
1730- 1757- Taunton
1733- 1802- Paignton
1745- 1812- Carmarthen
1748- 1817- Cheltenham Spa
1751- 1822- Worcester Shrub Hill
1800- 1827- Bristol Temple Meads
1803- 1832- Penzance
1815- 1843- Swansea
1821- 1852- Hereford
1830- 1857- Weston-Super-Mare
1836- 1904- Exeter St Davids / Plymouth
1845- 1912- Swansea
1848- 1918- Cheltenham Spa
1851- 1923- Oxford
1900- 1928- Bristol Temple Meads
1903- 1933- Plymouth / Penzance
1915- 1942- Swansea

Occasionally, the departure time or final destination of these services may change, due to engineering work. When this happens, the restriction also applies to the equivalent service.

Searching the FGW website, I cannot find the above services listed in a single collated piece of information. FGW state that passengers
wanting to find out the restrictions applicable to each ticket type, should make an online journey enquiry simply clicking on the ticket type name they are using and cross reference this with the service you wish to use. Alternatively, asking at the ticket office or telesales would also give passengers the same information.

 

[mathmo]

This seems supremely complex! So the journey planners and their somewhat bizarre selection of allowed trains must be right then. This gives allowed trains between London and Reading of:
1612 to Reading (stopper)
1618 to Bedwyn (fast to Reading)
1622 to Oxford (calling Slough)
1627 to Oxford (semi-fast stopper)
1642 to Reading (stopper)
1657 to Reading (stopper)
1706 to Westbury (calls Twyford)
1718 to Oxford (calls Maidenhead, Twyford)
1725 to Banbury (stopper)
1736 to Oxford (calls Maidenhead, Twyford)
1750 to Worcester (calls Maidenhead)
1757 to Reading (stopper)
and similar services until the last barred train leaves at 1915. The choice of services seems a bit bizarre to me - a mixture of a few slow services that will probably be busy with commuters and some other services.

Is there any particular historical reason for this somewhat strange set-up? Does any other region have it? And couldn't the restrictions be incorporated into the NFM, or does this apply to any ticket of these types that could possibly be routed out via Paddington?

 

[glynn80]

Is there any particular historical reason for this somewhat strange set-up? Does any other region have it? And couldn't the restrictions be incorporated into the NFM, or does this apply to any ticket of these types that could possibly be routed out via Paddington?

The restrictions are posted at the top of the FRPP "Off Peak Day" validity page above all of the restriction codes. It therefore seemingly applies to all Off Peak Day ticket types.

What I do not understand though is that the page lists validity codes for not just flows that FGW set, but Off Peak Day tickets set by all operators. This seems incompatiable with the fact the TSA gives the lead operator (TOC that sets the fare) following right: "The price of a Compulsory Inter-available Fare, and any restriction of validity, is entirely at the discretion of the Lead Operator". This is subject to any limitations imposed by the lead operator's franchise agreement. The limitations mainly refer to obligations to offer children (under 16s) a price discount at least as favourable as
that approved by the DfT, for the Young Person’s Railcard (the current discount factor is 34%); compliance with specific Fares Regulation requirements; a duty to behave in an even-handed manner when determining validity restrictions and a duty not to engage in disruptive or anti-competitive pricing practices. They of course do not specifically mention FGW barred services and therefore I can't see how FGW have managed to create this blanket ban situation.

 

[Greenback]

This seems supremely complex! So the journey planners and their somewhat bizarre selection of allowed trains must be right then. This gives allowed trains between London and Reading of:
1612 to Reading (stopper)
1618 to Bedwyn (fast to Reading)
1622 to Oxford (calling Slough)
1627 to Oxford (semi-fast stopper)
1642 to Reading (stopper)
1657 to Reading (stopper)
1706 to Westbury (calls Twyford)
1718 to Oxford (calls Maidenhead, Twyford)
1725 to Banbury (stopper)
1736 to Oxford (calls Maidenhead, Twyford)
1750 to Worcester (calls Maidenhead)
1757 to Reading (stopper)
and similar services until the last barred train leaves at 1915. The choice of services seems a bit bizarre to me - a mixture of a few slow services that will probably be busy with commuters and some other services.

Is there any particular historical reason for this somewhat strange set-up? Does any other region have it? And couldn't the restrictions be incorporated into the NFM, or does this apply to any ticket of these types that could possibly be routed out via Paddington?

The restrictions have been in place for many years, certainly since my mate was at Uni in Reading in the early 1990's.

IIRC, the reasoning behind these restrictions is that the off peak tickets, such as a Cheap Day Return, were banned for the long distance services due to overcrowding. Travellers on the HST's to Bristol, Plymouth, Cardiff etc, who pay very high fares to travel at peak times, would not be able to board the trains as they would be full of Reading travellers on discounted tickets!

There were similar restrictions on CDR's and Supersavers on all the old IC routes. I used to have to pick up a little pocket booklet that showed the restrictions, for example, from Liverpool Street to Norwich if I wanted to travel back via East Anglia!

 

[laird]

Have there always been restrictions about which trains are open for off peak ticket use from Reading to Paddington in the evening?

 

[Greenback]

I don't think there have ever been any evening restrictions from Reading to Paddington, as the heavy customer flows are out of London. After seeing my friend, I often used to go to Norwich to see another acquaintance, and I used to leave Reading around 1730-1800 as I couldn't leave Liverpool St until 1930 (unless I left before LSt about 1600).

My memory is a bit hazy now, I'm sure someone will put me right if I'm wrong!