On board ticket sales and operating speed

[Observer]

The operating speed doesn't help when there are slow ticket machines out there. Ticketer takes its time when processing card payments, although I think the newer version some operators have been getting seems to have sped it up.

 

[8ace]

A new pointless delay this morning, someone messing about trying to pick up a free metro this morning as they left the bus

 

[ChrisC]

A new pointless delay this morning, someone messing about trying to pick up a free metro this morning as they left the bus

That’s not a new reason for delay on my local route but a regular occurrence. Most of the bus drivers are very good at not setting off until passengers boarding have sat down. It must be very frustrating for them when people stop on their way to their seats to pick up a free newspaper. They are very often elderly people who are not very mobile and slow at getting sat down even without stopping to pick up a newspaper.

 

[Hyebone]

A new pointless delay this morning, someone messing about trying to pick up a free metro this morning as they left the bus

Not to mention a lot of them insist on picking one up from the bottom of the pile! Yes Barbara, the 6th one down will have money in it or something

 

[8ace]

That’s not a new reason for delay on my local route but a regular occurrence. Most of the bus drivers are very good at not setting off until passengers boarding have sat down. It must be very frustrating for them when people stop on their way to their seats to pick up a free newspaper. They are very often elderly people who are not very mobile and slow at getting sat down even without stopping to pick up a newspaper.

Get rid of 'em - never found anything worth reading in the metro anyway.

Not to mention a lot of them insist on picking one up from the bottom of the pile! Yes Barbara, the 6th one down will have money in it or something

This was the first bus of the day so they were all as pristine as could be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the end, elderly/disabled people and people with prams taking a while to board isn't avoidable. However, wasting time selling tickets in traditional transactions is.

Control what you can control for maximum benefit rather than sitting complaining about the things you can't control and failing to deal with the things you can.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't understand the premise of the thread

Most people buy App tickets or use Tap in and Tap off. There is no need for on street ticket machines or anything.

Depends where you are.

Here we don't have tap-on and tap-off and we don't have an app for tickets. The closest we have to off-bus ticketing is a smartcard and there are two types. One is a normal weekly season ticket and one is a card which works like a carnet. You can load it online or at railway stations with 12 tickets for the price of 10, but you can only load it with tickets for one fare zone. There are 6 fare zones here.

Tickets are therefore almost exclusively bought on bus as a result. Whether it's cash or card doesn't really matter, it takes the same amount of time.

 

[cactustwirly]

Perhaps in your area. Not everywhere in my experience. I guess your local operator gets it - who is it?



I agree TVMs are unnecessary.



This varies massively. But a traditional transaction is quite slow, whether cash or card.

This was in different areas, like Bournemouth, Leicester and Reading so assumed it was widespread.

That's with various operators like Go-Ahead and First who operate nationally

 

[Bletchleyite]

This was in different areas, like Bournemouth, Leicester and Reading so assumed it was widespread.

Tap On Tap Off with classic card sales not permitted unless buying for more than one person isn't at all widespread. Unfortunately unless you disallow classic purchase it doesn't go away - plenty of places have it but seem to barely see it used, e.g. Cornwall.

Phone sales is slightly more common, but they don't sell singles in all areas so many people won't use it while the £2 scheme is ongoing and day tickets are poor value.

 

[stevieinselby]

Operators should be banned from busways, or any bus lanes for that matter, if they don't make boarding as fast as possible.

It never ceases to amaze me how didactic and authoritarian some people are willing to be...

Maybe, just maybe, bus companies know how to run their own business, and know what works for them.

Seen lots of people mention the bus operators are the issue here but I disagree. This is a local authority issue instead. The smart card or app which should be used to purchase these tickets should be done by the local transport authority, similar to TFL, which is being mentioned a lot.

This shouldn't be something which is done by each bus operator as it's just confusing. The same way there shouldn't be 20 different ticket types with each operator having their own and multi modal tickets in some areas not existing at all. This is what really slows boarding down.

Yes and no. What about bus routes that cross local authority boundaries? There are plenty of buses that run across multiple local authorities, even if you group metro/mayoral areas together. You could end up in a situation where passengers are faced with more expensive journeys if an operator's network ticket is no longer available and they have to buy more tickets because their journey goes across the county line.

While I agree that multi-operator tickets should be introduced across all areas, the last reason I would think of for that is the effect on boarding times.

Lots of operators still don't have Tap and Cap. Even where it is offered, buying tickets from the driver is still available, even including weekly tickets in most cases.

Cash is not the problem nowadays. Buying paper tickets from the driver using contactless is now the bigger problem.

Bus operations are not uniform across the country. What works for a major player like First Group might not work for Mrs Miggs' Minibuses running a few shopper journeys a week into the nearest market town. What's appropriate on Oxford Street might not be appropriate in a rural Oxfordshire village. Sometimes ruthless efficiency is detrimental to the service, if it turns some customers away and brings little in the way of marginal gains.

Lots of people don't want to use an app, because (a) that relies on keeping your phone battery alive for the whole day, and (ii) if you have to download a separate app for each bus company you use and/or each council/metro area you travel in, that can be a lot of apps, and eg if you're on holiday and wanting to catch a bus then it's going to be really off-putting if you have to download an app first. And from the complaints we've seen about people boarding and wanting to pay with their phone but not having it ready and have the payment app open ... why do you think those people are any more likely to have the travel app loaded and ready to go?

Tap On Tap Off is a strange requirement at a time when most operators have a flat £2 fare, the "tap off" element seems superfluous if it doesn't matter where you get off, which is why TfL buses don't require it. And in the real world, how much quicker is TOTO than paying for a single journey with each tap? If the delay is caused by the issuing of a physical ticket then that is the easiest bit of the process to remove.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You don't need to tap off if your fare is to the terminus of the route - if you don't you're just charged that. So at present basically nobody needs to.

Yes, it's much quicker - go to London and see!

 

[johncrossley]

It never ceases to amaze me how didactic and authoritarian some people are willing to be...

Maybe, just maybe, bus companies know how to run their own business, and know what works for them.

They have taken millions of pounds of our taxes for the express purpose of speeding up their buses, but they are deliberately slowing them down.

Yes and no. What about bus routes that cross local authority boundaries? There are plenty of buses that run across multiple local authorities, even if you group metro/mayoral areas together. You could end up in a situation where passengers are faced with more expensive journeys if an operator's network ticket is no longer available and they have to buy more tickets because their journey goes across the county line.

There is always a boundary unless you have a national ticketing system. You can make the same argument against single company tickets.

Bus operations are not uniform across the country. What works for a major player like First Group might not work for Mrs Miggs' Minibuses running a few shopper journeys a week into the nearest market town. What's appropriate on Oxford Street might not be appropriate in a rural Oxfordshire village. Sometimes ruthless efficiency is detrimental to the service, if it turns some customers away and brings little in the way of marginal gains.

What about the situation where an operator serves both a big city and rural areas? Do you deny the big city fast boarding because it wouldn't work in the rural areas?

Lots of people don't want to use an app, because (a) that relies on keeping your phone battery alive for the whole day, and (ii) if you have to download a separate app for each bus company you use and/or each council/metro area you travel in, that can be a lot of apps, and eg if you're on holiday and wanting to catch a bus then it's going to be really off-putting if you have to download an app first. And from the complaints we've seen about people boarding and wanting to pay with their phone but not having it ready and have the payment app open ... why do you think those people are any more likely to have the travel app loaded and ready to go?

I wouldn't have mobile apps as the only option. London, for example, doesn't even offer that option.

 

[cactustwirly]

Tap On Tap Off with classic card sales not permitted unless buying for more than one person isn't at all widespread. Unfortunately unless you disallow classic purchase it doesn't go away - plenty of places have it but seem to barely see it used, e.g. Cornwall.

Phone sales is slightly more common, but they don't sell singles in all areas so many people won't use it while the £2 scheme is ongoing and day tickets are poor value.

What do you mean?
It's the default mode of operation on Arriva and Go-Ahead. You get on and tap your card it beeps and you don't get a ticket.

A lot of the bus companies use the same app with a different skin. Go-Aheads looks the same as Reading buses etc. Shows you where the buses are on a map overlay and sells all the tickets including singles and day tickets

 

[Lewisham2221]

What do you mean?
It's the default mode of operation on Arriva and Go-Ahead. You get on and tap your card it beeps and you don't get a ticket.

Yes, but you can also ask for your single/return/day/week ticket in the normal manner and still pay by card (or cash). It is this process that takes considerably more time, per passenger that chooses to pay this way, than tap and go.

A lot of the bus companies use the same app with a different skin. Go-Aheads looks the same as Reading buses etc. Shows you where the buses are on a map overlay and sells all the tickets including singles and day tickets

AFAIK, neither the Arriva nor First apps allow you to purchase single tickets on the app, by virtue of not having a fixed single fare.

 

[Man of Kent]

I don't understand the premise of the thread

Most people buy App tickets or use Tap in and Tap off. There is no need for on street ticket machines or anything.

Only a handful of people pay cash, it's neither here nor there in terms of the overall duration of the bus journey

The split for a large non-metropolitan regional operator I have been working with is roughly 60% card/40% cash.

What do you mean?
It's the default mode of operation on Arriva and Go-Ahead. You get on and tap your card it beeps and you don't get a ticket.

It's certainly not an option on Arriva in Kent. Indeed, according to the company's website, it is only available in

• Leicester
• North East
• Wales
• Yorkshire

 

[Ediswan]

AFAIK, neither the Arriva nor First apps allow you to purchase single tickets on the app, by virtue of not having a fixed single fare.

This appears to depend on the area. The Arriva app will sell me a £2 single for Stevenage.

 

[johncrossley]

It's certainly not an option on Arriva in Kent. Indeed, according to the company's website, it is only available in

• Leicester
• North East
• Wales
• Yorkshire

Also in the Liverpool City Region

Arriva Bus

www.arrivabus.co.uk

From 30th October 2022
Arriva to launch Tap and Go contactless payment scheme in the Liverpool City Region – giving customers a new quick and easy way to pay for bus travel at the best price.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What do you mean?
It's the default mode of operation on Arriva and Go-Ahead. You get on and tap your card it beeps and you don't get a ticket

Certainly not at all Arriva companies. Arriva Milton Keynes don't even offer it, or if they do it isn't in any way publicised and they haven't fitted grab pole tap off readers so when we return to graduated fares it wouldn't work.

It should be as you suggest, but it isn't in most areas of the country at present.

It is good that they seem to be considering it, however.

 

[mangad]

Tap On Tap Off is a strange requirement at a time when most operators have a flat £2 fare, the "tap off" element seems superfluous if it doesn't matter where you get off, which is why TfL buses don't require it. And in the real world, how much quicker is TOTO than paying for a single journey with each tap? If the delay is caused by the issuing of a physical ticket then that is the easiest bit of the process to remove.

It was recently announced that the Bee Network wouldn be doing TOTO and the thing that immediately sprang to my mind was... WHY???!!!? it seems completely pointless given Andy Burnham has long planned a flat fare for Greater Manchester. Indeed the plans predated the £2 fare cap in England!

 

[johncrossley]

It was recently announced that the Bee Network wouldn be doing TOTO and the thing that immediately sprang to my mind was... WHY???!!!? it seems completely pointless given Andy Burnham has long planned a flat fare for Greater Manchester. Indeed the plans predated the £2 fare cap in England!

There won't be tap out for buses. But there will be combined bus and tram daily caps available and that requires tap in and out for the tram, which may be why it is being described in this manner. Trams already offer tap in tap out, but only for tram only fares at the moment. It would be good if they ban conventional contactless for adult bus fares but I suspect that won't be the case.

 

[py_megapixel]

It was recently announced that the Bee Network wouldn be doing TOTO and the thing that immediately sprang to my mind was... WHY???!!!? it seems completely pointless given Andy Burnham has long planned a flat fare for Greater Manchester. Indeed the plans predated the £2 fare cap in England!

I don't think that's correct. The press release says:

Under the new system, people travelling by Bee Network bus will simply touch on as they board, and their fares will be worked out for them

That doesn't sound to me like a touch out will be required.

It would be good if they ban conventional contactless for adult bus fares but I suspect that won't be the case.

That reminds me of over the pennines in Sheffield, where First has fairly recently introduced TOTO (but without removing conventional payments). I hardly ever see anyone use TOTO, though plenty of people just get on and ask for a £2 single and pay by card... some drivers do advise passengers to touch in but most do not.

To be fair, that's probably because it's not a very good system - it requires touch out which slows down alighting somewhat, and it isn't integrated with the trams or even with the Stagecoach buses which in some cases run the same routes! It's a shame really at the technology behind it seems to be quite good... at least the Bee Network system won't have those issues.

 

[mangad]

I don't think that's correct. The press release says:

That doesn't sound to me like a touch out will be required

So the press release (that I have only now seen) does not match the reporting of the story by the media.

For example from Route One:

Rollout of the final tranche of franchising will complete before that date. Introduction of capped tap on, tap off payment on Bee Network buses will build on the system already available on Metrolink tram services in the conurbation.

Bee Network buses to get capped contactless payment in Q1 2025 - routeone

Bus services operated under the franchised Bee Network in Greater Manchester will introduce capped contactless payments from 23 March 2025.

www.route-one.net

From BBC News:

A tap-in tap-out system for both buses and trams is due to be introduced in Greater Manchester in March.

Greater Manchester Bee Network tap-in tap-out fares launch in March

Commuters will be able to travel on trams and buses for a maximum multi-modal fare of £9.50 a day.

www.bbc.co.uk

The most ambiguous is the Manchester Evening News

Date set for Bee Network’s move to touch-in, touch-out payment system

There will be a daily cap, meaning no one will pay more than £9.50 for unlimited bus and tram travel in Greater Manchester

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

In short, you'll understand why I thought they were introducing tap on tap off on buses. Because that's what the media were saying!

 

[johncrossley]

The trouble is the Bee Network have to keep conventional contactless for child fares, so they can't remove that functionality altogether. They also have group fares which they will presumably keep going once tap on contactless is implemented. Despite being franchised, the Bee Network incredibly still sells weekly tickets on the bus! Cash only, because of fraud concerns. They will have weekly capping, so this really should mean the end of selling paper weekly tickets on the bus.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The trouble is the Bee Network have to keep conventional contactless for child fares, so they can't remove that functionality altogether

I'd expect in time to see an Oyster Zip style card of some kind for that. Child fare fraud is endemic and it would end that.

 

[Starmill]

Arriva Milton Keynes don't even offer it, or if they do it isn't in any way publicised and they haven't fitted grab pole tap off readers so when we return to graduated fares it wouldn't work.

At least one operator does tap on tap off using the same reader under the ticket machine as the tap off reader. Also, if the one on the way out is broken this can be done.

What do you mean?
It's the default mode of operation on Arriva and Go-Ahead. You get on and tap your card it beeps and you don't get a ticket.

This is quite naive. Uptake of this is very new and large parts of the country don't have it.

Indeed, sadly there are still some hold-outs doing cash only. Stotts Tours in Oldham were the most recent example I had - no app, no card. £2 cash or you're not welcome.

I even had one bus in Dorset which had stickers on it saying it did tap on tap off even though it didn't. This was because that vehicle had been transferred in from another area where presumably they did. Bletchleyite has also mentioned Cornwall where there is tap on tap off but it's an incredibly well-kept secret. I assume that's because it doesn't work on Hopleys and OTS but you still get capped at the £7 rate? I didn't know it was an option as it's not advertised anywhere and every tap off reader I saw was broken.

 

[JD2168]

Some of the issues I have seen with tap on-tap off are:
Tap off machines not working so having to do it at the normal ticket machine.
Lack of phone signal particularly in a rural area & in Doncaster Frenchgate Interchange where the phone signal is dreadful.
Some passengers being confused when the driver mentioning the system.

Some issues with the weekly tickets are if they are getting it off board at a machine some are vandalised & are not working so you have go inside the building but some of these are shut when early/late travellers may be wanting to use them.

At one point a few years ago First gave you the ticket wallet along with the ticket for you to put it together yourself but didn’t seem to last long.

The Metro’s can be very popular on a bus, drivers at times sit on them in the cab & it is free which compared to the price of some papers is quite good.

 

[Starmill]

I'd expect in time to see an Oyster Zip style card of some kind for that. Child fare fraud is endemic and it would end that.

This already exists, it's the igo card. However, the 5-15 product is not free travel, unlike the 16-18 one (yes, really). Making bus travel free for children would end up costing a lot given how big the market is.

Neither is available to a child or young adult who doesn't live in the area.

 

[johncrossley]

I'd expect in time to see an Oyster Zip style card of some kind for that. Child fare fraud is endemic and it would end that.

Greater Manchester already has an Under 16 smartcard called Igo, similar to London, which costs £10 per year. And child rate tickets can be loaded onto it. But it doesn't have a pay as you go facility.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I’m not a massive fan of tap on tap off because of the tap off element. There are so many variables to go wrong and the technology frequently seems to fall over, especially at tap off. I see a lot of complaints about overcharging. This may be passenger error or it may be operator error but it reduces faith in the system.

Tap on systems really only work where the fare is a flat fare. They’re amazing for urban areas where there is a flat fare. And urban areas should have flat fares, really. It works well in London, it works well in Merseyside, it’ll work well in Manchester as they’re keeping the flat fares and they already have the back office system for Metrolink.

 

[cactustwirly]

Certainly not at all Arriva companies. Arriva Milton Keynes don't even offer it, or if they do it isn't in any way publicised and they haven't fitted grab pole tap off readers so when we return to graduated fares it wouldn't work.

It should be as you suggest, but it isn't in most areas of the country at present.

It is good that they seem to be considering it, however.

This was High Wycombe before it closed