Once Soham station has opened, what improvements could be made to service provision on the line?

[Meglodon 5]

It wouldn't.


There's not. By by reckoning it's 27 power cars and about 40 trailers there. Why not? Plenty of reasons... they've been out of use for some time, not PRM compliant etc etc. I could go on here, but I can't decide if you're being serious in suggesting it.

I'm not being completely serious, no.

 

[Cowley]

Thread reopened for @bspahh to provide an update.

 

[bspahh]

https://www.elystandard.co.uk/news/traffic/mps-lucy-frazer-and-matt-hancock-rail-campaign-9169586 says:

MP Lucy Frazer has joined forces with neighbouring MP Matt Hancock to press for re-instatement of the ‘Newmarket Curve’.

That’s the west curve at Chippenham junction (north of Newmarket) that would allow a new service pattern into Cambridge from Ely, Newmarket and Soham.

Both MPs have written to the Secretary of State for Transport, Grant Shapps “to express our support for improved rail services between Newmarket and Cambridge”.

Ms Frazer said: “Increasing the frequency of trains between Newmarket and Cambridge could be an important part of the 'levelling up' agenda.

“It would offer better connectivity and play a part in widening prosperity beyond the region's economic centre and encouraging trade and travel.”
She said that reinstating the 'Newmarket Curve' could create a rail connection between Felixstowe Port for both the Nuneaton and Ipswich-Cambridge railway lines.

Ms Frazer said Felixstowe Port is the UK’s largest port, with 5,000 lorries leaving the port each day, and representing 60 per cent of the freight originating from here.

“If the Newmarket Curve were reinstated, our railways could be used to transport this freight from Felixstowe Port to other parts of the UK in a greener and more efficient way than is currently possible,” she said.

“Cambridgeshire and Peterborough Combined Authority has allocated £150,000 towards the Newmarket Curve project, and some of these funds may be used to develop a business case for reinstating the Newmarket Curve.

“Unless all or most of the railway line between Newmarket and Cambridge is ‘double tracked’, it will not be possible to increase the frequency of trains between these two areas, and it will not be possible to reinstate the Newmarket Curve.”

She said that both MPs were hopeful of a meeting with the Secretary of State and other stakeholders “to discuss these ideas and how better rail services can be delivered for our constituents”.

Campaign group Railfuture says Newmarket to Cambridge has a successful hourly service currently but with track doubling and some new station provision could be used by 4 or 5 services per hour each way.

That in turn could support a half hourly Cambridge to Ipswich service, and a half hourly Cambridge to Ely via Soham service.

I don't know how reinstating the Newmarket Curve will help freight from Felixstowe...

 

[70014IronDuke]

M

https://www.elystandard.co.uk/news/traffic/mps-lucy-frazer-and-matt-hancock-rail-campaign-9169586 says:



I don't know how reinstating the Newmarket Curve will help freight from Felixstowe...

"MP Ignorant of Local Geography - Shock"

Mind you, the journalist and editor should have questioned this - but perhaps they don't know either.

I'm glad she's for the curve though!

 

[camflyer]

M

"MP Ignorant of Local Geography - Shock"

Mind you, the journalist and editor should have questioned this - but perhaps they don't know either.

I'm glad she's for the curve though!

I'm all for reinstating the curve but I don't think "levelling up" (in what is already a relatively wealth area) and freight services are the best arguments to use.

For me the biggest benefits would be a direct Newmarket to Ely and Soham to Cambridge services both of which are key commuter routes, though to be really effective they need to be half hourly. An hourly service isn't good enough for commuting. Miss a train or have one cancelled and you are an hour late for work.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I'm all for reinstating the curve but I don't think "levelling up" (in what is already a relatively wealth area) and freight services are the best arguments to use.

For me the biggest benefits would be a direct Newmarket to Ely and Soham to Cambridge services both of which are key commuter routes, though to be really effective they need to be half hourly. An hourly service isn't good enough for commuting. Miss a train or have one cancelled and you are an hour late for work.

IF - it's a big if too - but if a case could be made and money found to reinstate the curve - and stock, crews etc sourced for an hourly service Ely - Soham - Newmarket - Cambridge, you would get a half hourly service on the Newmarket - Cambridge section.

But does this have the capacity for two trains each way per hour?

And does freight run over this section with any regularity?

 

[30907]

IF - it's a big if too - but if a case could be made and money found to reinstate the curve - and stock, crews etc sourced for an hourly service Ely - Soham - Newmarket - Cambridge, you would get a half hourly service on the Newmarket - Cambridge section.

But does this have the capacity for two trains each way per hour?

You would need to redouble Dullingham-Six Mile Bottom, leaving aside issues for Soham-Ely.

 

[zwk500]

IF - it's a big if too - but if a case could be made and money found to reinstate the curve - and stock, crews etc sourced for an hourly service Ely - Soham - Newmarket - Cambridge, you would get a half hourly service on the Newmarket - Cambridge section.

But does this have the capacity for two trains each way per hour?

The section might, but more importantly does Cambridge?

And does freight run over this section with any regularity?

Not at the moment, because of restrictions through Newmarket Tunnel. But threading even an hourly service Ely-Soham-Cambridge between all the Intermodal traffic heading between Peterborough and Felixstowe won't be fun. Especially as Soham Station stops the line being completely double-tracked without spending rather a lot of money moving the platform.

 

[Trainbike46]

The answer might be obvious, but why did they built Soham at a single-track section without first doubling it?

 

[zwk500]

The answer might be obvious, but why did they built Soham at a single-track section without first doubling it?

Cost of doubling would have destroyed the business case. However recent photos (see Wikipedia article for the station) suggest space might be available to add the second platform without touching the existing one, although it'd need to tinkering with the track alignment.

 

[306024]

Suggest someone sits down and looks at the timetabling options. You’ll soon realise its nowhere near as simple as just reinstating a curve. Good luck…..

 

[Trainbike46]

Cost of doubling would have destroyed the business case. However recent photos (see Wikipedia article for the station) suggest space might be available to add the second platform without touching the existing one, although it'd need to tinkering with the track alignment.

That makes sense - I doubt the business case was great to begin with tbh. Though I do wonder why they didn't build it on the already double track section, for example next to Mill Drove. Though I guess it's a bit late for that now!

 

[ac6000cw]

The elephant in the room is capacity in and around Ely - without that being (expensively) sorted out first, doubling Soham - Ely is probably dead in the water because there's little or no capacity for the extra trains to terminate at Ely or go to/from elsewhere. AFAIK that's one of the reasons doubling Soham - Ely hasn't happened so far (despite attempts in the past - an LNER plan to do it was killed off by WW2).

Best way of improving the 'train' service at Soham in the short to medium term is probably a dedicated, frequent, bus service to/from Ely station - it's not far on a good road, and there are 4 tph between Ely and Cambridge off-peak. But of course there's a lot less political kudos in that, so something actually useful like that is unlikely to happen...not that I'm cynical or anything...

 

[camflyer]

IF - it's a big if too - but if a case could be made and money found to reinstate the curve - and stock, crews etc sourced for an hourly service Ely - Soham - Newmarket - Cambridge, you would get a half hourly service on the Newmarket - Cambridge section.

But does this have the capacity for two trains each way per hour?

And does freight run over this section with any regularity?

As I understand it the Newmarket to Cambridge doesn't have that capacity now but would need some doubling of the current single track sections.

Not aware of much (if any) freight now, anything from Ipswich/Felixstowe goes up the other curve to Ely and beyond. Would the tunnel at Newmarket support container freight?

 

[zwk500]

Would the tunnel at Newmarket support container freight?

Believe it's W8 only, so would need Well Wagons.

 

[ac6000cw]

Would the tunnel at Newmarket support container freight?

Back in 2007 there was quite a lot of container traffic diverted via that route for months, due to the Soham line river bridge at Ely having to be rebuilt following a serious derailment. The diverted trains reversed in Cambridge yard (as the junction at Cambridge faces south).

But as zwk500 says, I suspect it isn't cleared for 9'6" containers on standard wagons.

I live near the Cambridge - Newmarket line, and freight traffic is normally rare - mostly the odd engineering train (and RHT in season).

 

[70014IronDuke]

The elephant in the room is capacity in and around Ely - without that being (expensively) sorted out first, doubling Soham - Ely is probably dead in the water because there's little or no capacity for the extra trains to terminate at Ely or go to/from elsewhere. AFAIK that's one of the reasons doubling Soham - Ely hasn't happened so far (despite attempts in the past - an LNER plan to do it was killed off by WW2).

Best way of improving the 'train' service at Soham in the short to medium term is probably a dedicated, frequent, bus service to/from Ely station - it's not far on a good road, and there are 4 tph between Ely and Cambridge off-peak. But of course there's a lot less political kudos in that, so something actually useful like that is unlikely to happen...not that I'm cynical or anything...

You could omit the Ely stop from the Norwich - Liverpools, of course, sending those via the avoiding curve, and make anyone changing at Ely catch the Birminghams or Ipswich-Peterboroughs and change at Peterborough.

That would relieve Ely station of four movements per hour, including two reversals and speed up the EMR trains to boot.

 

[TheBigD]

You could omit the Ely stop from the Norwich - Liverpools, of course, sending those via the avoiding curve, and make anyone changing at Ely catch the Birminghams or Ipswich-Peterboroughs and change at Peterborough.

That would relieve Ely station of four movements per hour, including two reversals and speed up the EMR trains to boot.

Not sure how you think it will speed up the service given the other constraints. Sure if you get a clean path you save 7 minutes missing out Ely. (See the times for the 1553 SuO Norwich to Manchester which goes via the west curve)

However...

If the west bound Norwich Liverpoool leaves around 5 minutes later it clashes with the Norwich london across trowse swing bridge, and then the east bound liverpool Norwich at trowse junction, and then clashes with the London to Kings Lynn at Ely north junction.
East bound if they miss Ely means a clash once again Trowse. And then waiting for the Norwich to london to pass the bridge and junction.
And the freight traffic that is booked to wait on Ely West curve? Some freights sit there for up to an hour before proceeding. Where are you planning on holding these instead?

Central Trains looked at missing Ely back in the mid 2000s and decided it wasn't feasible then given the other constraints. And there's now a lot more freight about.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I suspect a whole new set of hourly paths, or lots of pathing time in the current Norwich-Nottingham section. Given the single line constraints at Grantham onto/off the Nottingham line and to the ECML that may be another issue.

 

[Starmill]

It might work, with a double junction at Haughley, double tracking throughout between Ely and Soham including an additional platform at Soham, the proposed work at Ely North (which is likely to be postponed), some comprehensive level crossing mitigations or closures, doubling of most of the route between Chippenham Jn and Coldham Lane Jn including additional platform at Newmarket. It's unclear if there's a platform or a siding for the train to use during its layovers at both Ely and Cambridge, but if there is not another platform would be likely to be needed at one or both. And of course, an additional unit and crew.

All to run one train per hour between Ely and Cambridge via Newmarket. Admittedly if the level crossing work were going to include all the way from Felixstowe to Peterborough that may be enough to allow more freight services to run, and if it were also going to include Ely to Kings Lynn it would allow 2tph from Kings Lynn all day. But in that case we're looking at a couple of billion pounds worth of work.

Looking on the bright side however, if we're spending all this money on substantial doubling between Dullingham and Coldham Lane Jn, a two-platform station at Fulbourn would be feasible also. We'd certainly need it too because just Soham to Cambridge and increasing traffic from Newmarket isn't going to fill a two car DMU. If the doubling is going to extend to Cherry Hinton another station there is a possibility.

 

[bspahh]

It might work, with a double junction at Haughley, double tracking throughout between Ely and Soham including an additional platform at Soham, the proposed work at Ely North (which is likely to be postponed), some comprehensive level crossing mitigations or closures, doubling of most of the route between Chippenham Jn and Coldham Lane Jn including additional platform at Newmarket. It's unclear if there's a platform or a siding for the train to use during its layovers at both Ely and Cambridge, but if there is not another platform would be likely to be needed at one or both. And of course, an additional unit and crew.

All to run one train per hour between Ely and Cambridge via Newmarket. Admittedly if the level crossing work were going to include all the way from Felixstowe to Peterborough that may be enough to allow more freight services to run, and if it were also going to include Ely to Kings Lynn it would allow 2tph from Kings Lynn all day. But in that case we're looking at a couple of billion pounds worth of work.

Improving Ely North junction would be a good thing for the country. Increasing traffic with a lot more freight, going at 50mph instead of 20mph through the riverside area, along with disruption from building work, will be a tough sell for the local population. An Ely-Soham-Newmarket-Cambridge service might be good as a sweetener.

There is space for a bay platform in Ely alongside platform 1. Getting there from Soham is the problem.

 

[ac6000cw]

You could omit the Ely stop from the Norwich - Liverpools, of course, sending those via the avoiding curve, and make anyone changing at Ely catch the Birminghams or Ipswich-Peterboroughs and change at Peterborough.

That would relieve Ely station of four movements per hour, including two reversals and speed up the EMR trains to boot.

Yes, it's a really great idea for an important cross-country (note small 'c') service NOT to call at one of the most important interchanges in East Anglia, with five routes radiating out from it... those trains usually have a healthy turnover of passengers at Ely.

The old loco-hauled Norwich-Birmingham trains avoided Ely only because reversing those would have been too time-consuming, not because (commercially) BR wouldn't have preferred them to call at Ely.

Improving Ely North junction would be a good thing for the country. Increasing traffic with a lot more freight, going at 50mph instead of 20mph through the riverside area, along with disruption from building work, will be a tough sell for the local population. An Ely-Soham-Newmarket-Cambridge service might be good as a sweetener.

How is a slow service to Cambridge a 'sweetener' for people living in Ely, when it's already one of the best rail-connected places in East Anglia (with 4 tph to Cambridge?

There's probably some traffic to abstract from the bus service along the same route (which might cause that to be downgraded, thus reducing public transport to the smaller places it serves along the way), and Newmarket has attractions for some people I suppose (but Ely is a much nicer place overall).

 

[ashkeba]

There's probably some traffic to abstract from the bus service along the same route (which might cause that to be downgraded, thus reducing public transport to the smaller places it serves along the way), and Newmarket has attractions for some people I suppose (but Ely is a much nicer place overall).

I feel that Newmarket has more employment than Ely with all the horse -related places, but I've not checked the census and I am sure far more from Ely work in Cambridge.

 

[camflyer]

I feel that Newmarket has more employment than Ely with all the horse -related places, but I've not checked the census and I am sure far more from Ely work in Cambridge.

As a Newmarket resident who works in Cambridge, we have a decent service to Cambridge and BSE especially with the new trains (though half hourly would be better, especially for connections from London via Cambridge) but Ely is a pain to get to by bus with no late evening or Sunday service. An Ely rail link would also add more capacity on race days.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Yes, it's a really great idea for an important cross-country (note small 'c') service NOT to call at one of the most important interchanges in East Anglia, with five routes radiating out from it... those trains usually have a healthy turnover of passengers at Ely.

But how many of those passengers are joining/alighting at Ely that could not change into the service at Peterborough? Passengers from Cambridge, Ipswich/Bury can just as easily change at Peterboro as at Ely.
Anyone living in Ely using these trains, would, naturally be inconvenienced, and anyone coming from the Kings Lynn line of course, would face a double change, but are there many of those?

Using the fact that "five routes radiating out from it [Ely]" is specious in the context of this argument, as the Norwich-Liverpools use two of these in any case.

However, as @TheBigD points out, missing out Ely would likely cause pathing difficulties down the line and/or on the avoiding line, so it's probably not a good move from that pov.

How is a slow service to Cambridge a 'sweetener' for people living in Ely, when it's already one of the best rail-connected places in East Anglia (with 4 tph to Cambridge?

It wouldn't. Well, not to Cambridge, clearly. I assume the argument there was that it would be a sweetner mostly benefiting Soham - Cambridge passengers, but also Ely and Soham to/from Newmarket. Not sure how many there would be of the latter, however.

 

[cle]

And frankly, new paths at Ely shouldn't be used on two car diesels. We should be looking at running longer anything before sticking new services through there. Another Cambridge-Ipswich hourly at an even interval to the existing would be a much better, easier solve for Newmarket to Cambridge frequency, hitting Bury too.

Soham-Cambridge I can't see the investment ever happening. And where to put the train at Ely? Or send it somewhere, I guess maybe Norwich as a local service speeding others up? But not sure if either doable or needed, doubtful.