One day travel card for London

[cav1975]

It's not Woolwich Arsenal is it? There is a very odd yellow Oyster reader just as you leave the DLR going onto the National Rail platform 2 heading towards Kent.
I am baffled as to why it's there as initially I thought it may be to show which route you took but its not a pink reader and you'd need to tap in at either the gateline at Woolwich Arsenal NR OR DLR to gain access to that platform in any case!

Readers like that are helpful for users like me who come up from Kent on a paper single or return and want to continue on DLR/Underground.

 

[JonathanH]

Readers like that are helpful for users like me who come up from Kent on a paper single or return and want to continue on DLR/Underground.

For the time being yes. Ultimately they won't be seen as necessarily with the extension of PAYG to a wider area (with presumably the expectation that those travelling from outside the PAYG area will first want to touch in at a London Terminal, not a suburban interchange).

 

[miklcct]

For the time being yes. Ultimately they won't be seen as necessarily with the extension of PAYG to a wider area (with presumably the expectation that those travelling from outside the PAYG area will first want to touch in at a London Terminal, not a suburban interchange).

Can you explain the reasoning of this expectation? If we assume that the PAYG will be extended to the whole of former Network SouthEast area, Reading, Ealing Broadway, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Stevenage, Finsbury Park, etc., will remain the major interchange for those entering outside the area whose destination in London is short of a London Terminal.

 

[JonathanH]

Can you explain the reasoning of this expectation? If we assume that the PAYG will be extended to the whole of former Network SouthEast area, Reading, Ealing Broadway, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Stevenage, Finsbury Park, etc., will remain the major interchange for those entering outside the area whose destination in London is short of a London Terminal.

It has already been stated that PAYG will not be extended to the whole of the former NSE area. However, it is being extended to a wider area.

My reasoning for suggesting that platform mounted validators will be deemed superfluous is that
* the majority of use for PAYG is point to point travel
* (daily) capping is Zone 1 centric
* as you go further from London the number of passengers travelling to or around London diminishes with more of them arriving on 'long distance' trains
* more people in the PAYG zone will use PAYG throughout from their starting station
* the operators won't continue the use of validators on platforms if they aren't being used or are seen as an issue for revenue protection.

The number of stations with platform mounted validators is already limited in any case and are in many cases simply a legacy of when PAYG didn't extend further. Data will be being collected on how often they are used.

 

[Kite159]

It has already been stated that PAYG will not be extended to the whole of the former NSE area. However, it is being extended to a wider area.

My reasoning for suggesting that platform mounted validators will be deemed superfluous is that
* the majority of use for PAYG is point to point travel
* (daily) capping is Zone 1 centric
* as you go further from London the number of passengers travelling to or around London diminishes with more of them arriving on 'long distance' trains
* more people in the PAYG zone will use PAYG throughout from their starting station
* the operators won't continue the use of validators on platforms if they aren't being used or are seen as an issue for revenue protection.

The number of stations with platform mounted validators is already limited in any case and are in many cases simply a legacy of when PAYG didn't extend further. Data will be being collected on how often they are used.

I wonder how many passengers touch out of the oyster/contactless system after arriving at Woolwich from the DLR and carry on to another station (which hasn't got barriers) without holding a ticket, knowing the chance of an onboard check is limited.

 

[miklcct]

It has already been stated that PAYG will not be extended to the whole of the former NSE area. However, it is being extended to a wider area.

My reasoning for suggesting that platform mounted validators will be deemed superfluous is that
* the majority of use for PAYG is point to point travel
* (daily) capping is Zone 1 centric
* as you go further from London the number of passengers travelling to or around London diminishes with more of them arriving on 'long distance' trains
* more people in the PAYG zone will use PAYG throughout from their starting station
* the operators won't continue the use of validators on platforms if they aren't being used or are seen as an issue for revenue protection.

The number of stations with platform mounted validators is already limited in any case and are in many cases simply a legacy of when PAYG didn't extend further. Data will be being collected on how often they are used.

As the PAYG zone expands the place where people start and end their PAYG journey will also likely go outward to near the new PAYG boundary, where longer distance trains make their first call after departing from a London Terminal or the final call before reaching the London terminal.

For example, under the current arrangement, people coming from the South West on a fast train will most likely switch to PAYG at Clapham Junction for ultimate destinations in West / North / South London, where the normal line of route doesn't involve a London Terminal. If the PAYG area is extended to Woking, then people heading for Guildford will switch to PAYG at Woking if it ends up cheaper than a through ticket. If the PAYG area is extended to Basingstoke, then people heading to Reading or Paddington will switch to PAYG at Basingstoke given that under most circumstances it's already cheaper to split ticket at Basingstoke.

The currently fare structure means that, for a cross-operator journey, under most circumstances it's cheaper to split when changing trains between different operators (and sometimes even between the same operator as well) - especially an advance fare is used for the long-distance leg. As PAYG is supposed to be cheaper than traditional tickets the incentive for passengers is to switch to PAYG as soon as possible once an advance fare isn't available.

 

[Hadders]

For the time being yes. Ultimately they won't be seen as necessarily with the extension of PAYG to a wider area (with presumably the expectation that those travelling from outside the PAYG area will first want to touch in at a London Terminal, not a suburban interchange).

Standalone readers will still be needed at Finsbury Park as it is a major interchange where passengers change from paper tickets to PAYG. Even if PAYG is ectended to Stevenage there will still be passengers from Peterborough, Huntingdon etc which will not be part of the PAYG area who will change at Finsbury Park.

 

[JonathanH]

Standalone readers will still be needed at Finsbury Park as it is a major interchange where passengers change from paper tickets to PAYG. Even if PAYG is ectended to Stevenage there will still be passengers from Peterborough, Huntingdon etc which will not be part of the PAYG area who will change at Finsbury Park.

Yes, but the point I am making is that bringing Stevenage and the like into the PAYG area will halve the number of people needing to use the reader and the reduction in use will lead to the possibility of it being removed (with people from Huntingdon and Peterborough having to go to the gateline). They aren't likely to get off and back on at Stevenage even if it is cheaper.

 

[Kite159]

Standalone readers will still be needed at Finsbury Park as it is a major interchange where passengers change from paper tickets to PAYG. Even if PAYG is ectended to Stevenage there will still be passengers from Peterborough, Huntingdon etc which will not be part of the PAYG area who will change at Finsbury Park.

Ain't the standalone readers currently in the subway at Finsbury Park getting removed as part of a rebuild which will remove the gateline from P7/8 and have the entire station gated. Any genuine passengers who are changing from paper to PAYG will need to exit via the new gateline to either re-enter the same gateline or use the LU gateline.

Due to passengers getting wise to the fact they can board a train at an unbarriered station, arrive at Finsbury and simply touch in to pay a lot less.

 

[Hadders]

Ain't the standalone readers currently in the subway at Finsbury Park getting removed as part of a rebuild which will remove the gateline from P7/8 and have the entire station gated. Any genuine passengers who are changing from paper to PAYG will need to exit via the new gateline to either re-enter the same gateline or use the LU gateline.

Due to passengers getting wise to the fact they can board a train at an unbarriered station, arrive at Finsbury and simply touch in to pay a lot less.

They'd better not be going. It would be absolutely farcical if passengers switching from paper tickets to PAYG were forced to exit and re-enter.

There are validators on the platforms at Highbury & Islington so anyone intent on fare evasion would just touch in/out there.

 

[SparkieLover]

Ain't the standalone readers currently in the subway at Finsbury Park getting removed as part of a rebuild which will remove the gateline from P7/8 and have the entire station gated.

The gatelines (on P7/8) have been removed this is to clearance for the forthcomming lift. Their are new ones in Station Place have been installed and are now live.

There are validators on the platforms at Highbury & Islington so anyone intent on fare evasion would just touch in/out there.

It doesn't matter as Highbury & Islington is same fare as Finsbury Park even from Harringay. The problem if one wants to use the Picky.

 

[717001]

Standalone readers will still be needed at Finsbury Park as it is a major interchange where passengers change from paper tickets to PAYG. Even if PAYG is ectended to Stevenage there will still be passengers from Peterborough, Huntingdon etc which will not be part of the PAYG area who will change at Finsbury Park.

Also it's not just paper tickets to/from PAYG - it's also GN/TL tickets on the Key / KeyGo to/from TfL PAYG.

 

[Hadders]

The gatelines (on P7/8) have been removed this is to clearance for the forthcomming lift. Their are new ones in Station Place have been installed and are now live.



It doesn't matter as Highbury & Islington is same fare as Finsbury Park even from Harringay. The problem if one wants to use the Picky.

Someone travelling from Stevenage and interchanging to the Underground will do so at Finsbury Park, not Highbury & Islington.

Also it's not just paper tickets to/from PAYG - it's also GN/TL tickets on the Key / KeyGo to/from TfL PAYG.

Quite.

 

[swt_passenger]

Can you explain the reasoning of this expectation? If we assume that the PAYG will be extended to the whole of former Network SouthEast area, Reading, Ealing Broadway, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Stevenage, Finsbury Park, etc., will remain the major interchange for those entering outside the area whose destination in London is short of a London Terminal.

But most of us don’t assume the whole of the former NSE area. It won’t be extended anything like as far as you’re hoping. The area has been defined somewhere in the forum, but I’ve no idea where…

 

[Hadders]

Contactless won’t be extending to the whole of the Network South East area. Peterborough, Kings Lynn and (iirc) Cambridge aren’t included which is why Finsbury Park needs to retain standalone validators.

 

[Kite159]

They'd better not be going. It would be absolutely farcical if passengers switching from paper tickets to PAYG were forced to exit and re-enter.

There are validators on the platforms at Highbury & Islington so anyone intent on fare evasion would just touch in/out there.

I'm sure it got mentioned in one of those TfL Staff magazines which get published online after a Freedom of Information request (with any names/contact details blacked out)

Any genuine cases of passengers switching from paper ticket to contactless then they will have to exit via the normal gateline and re-enter. How long before TfL/DfT also remove the platform sided readers at Highbury and other stations which have validators within the "paid" area to reduce the risk of fare evasion.

 

[Hadders]

I'm sure it got mentioned in one of those TfL Staff magazines which get published online after a Freedom of Information request (with any names/contact details blacked out)

Any genuine cases of passengers switching from paper ticket to contactless then they will have to exit via the normal gateline and re-enter. How long before TfL/DfT also remove the platform sided readers at Highbury and other stations which have validators within the "paid" area to reduce the risk of fare evasion.

I've not seen anything on here about them going, except speculation.

There are standalone validators at many other stations where it is quite feasible to change to/from contactless or Oyster PAYG. Clapham Junction, Stratford and Farringdon spring to mind and I'm sure there are more elsewhere, so the situation at Finsbury Park is not exactly unique.

 

[mike57]

Update: Fridays trip completed using the travelcards purchased. No problems using them on either bus or underground. No one asked to see rail cards.

I am not sure how the cost would have compared with using contactless bearing in mind we used discounted off peak rail cards. We did about 6 short tube journeys, venturing into zone 3 once, we basically went in a big loop covering all the places we wanted to visit, and used the bus for a couple of short hops, which we would normally walk, but I was (am) suffering from a poorly knee which is on the mend, and wanted to minimise walking.

If we visited regularly then we would look at contactless or oyster. Thing with contactless is I wouldnt want to be walking around with my 'main' bank card in and out of my pocket at each gate line, too much likelyhood of loss (I am somewhat careless) so I would need to set up a sacrificial account, where the card loss would be less problematic. Replacing a lost travel card is £9 odd, annoying and stupid, but no ongoing repercussions.

There were signal problems on the Circle line just before our return, we had to do a bit of a detour in order to get back to Kings Cross in time, made it with about 15 mins to spare.

Off topic: We travelled with Hull trains from Beverley using First Class advance tickets. Journey both ways was comfortable and almost on time (5 mins late into Kings Cross), with proper cups of tea made in a pot with Yorkshire tea bags, very welcome on our return as we had intended stopping for a drink and a snack on our way back to Kings Cross, but Circle line problems meant we ran out of time.