FCC has at last made its super off-peak tickets available from its machines. In fact, on Sunday, I noticed that it was the only off-peak ticket you could get which is even better; no chance of accidentally buying the more expensive one. Credit where it is due, although they took long enough!
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One fare dodge every second on railways
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blacknight
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What grips me is EMT aka Stagecoach are shameless with greed wanting their cake & eat it as well in theory unmanned station when destaffed in 60's became open stations but now EMT want destaffed unmanned closed stations, as few years ago if ticket office was shut you could buy any ticket onboard.
Reason TOC's prefer to install TVM rather than reopen ticket office is staff are duty bound to sell ticket best value through ticket suited to the journey be made.
TVM not bound by this condition choice being placed on to the passenger. Another interesting point is if I read EMT leaflet correctly is they nolonger allow you to extend your journey onboard by paying the excess, just states you must have correct ticket for journey being made.
If I remember correctly WAGN withdrew Permit To Travel machines as people would just put coppers in, should RPI do check they could not do you for PF as you had PTT ticket & could only excess you but best bit if ticket went unchecked journey cost next to nothing.
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Failed Unit
Established Member
Have EMT got a ticket machine at Thurgarton? It seems very heavy handed to penalty fare people who haven't had a chance to buy a ticket! In NSE land all stations at least have a permit to travel machine. I bet thier appeals system is busy!
blacknight
Member
No TVM at Thurgarton according to National Rail info page interestingly also states Penalty Fare system is not applicable when travelling from there or other local stations at BIN or NCT which as TVM
whats the loniest station you have seen a TVM at? I would nominate Matlock think EMT had one left & dumped it at end of the line rather than take it back.
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When I've only had notes, I've put just 5p in a permit to rave machine and on more than one occasion that's all I've ended up paying. At night, it's not as if you can pay at the other end when the ticket office is closed and the gates open and nobody is around.
Failed Unit
Established Member
No TVM at Thurgarton according to National Rail info page interestingly also states Penalty Fare system is not applicable when travelling from there or other local stations at BIN or NCT which as TVM
Now that is common knowledge, anyone stopped at Nottingham can just say the come from Thurgarton rather than London - nice on EMT hit the honest and give the dishonest a loophole that you can't prove. :roll:
There are many lonely TVM's in the South East. I think selling only has a permit machine.
Jon, no doubt ATOC have counted you as one of the 'fare dodgers'
Seriously, this is why TOC's are trying to blame fare dodgers, because they don't want to reveal their own inadequacies!Which shows precisely what is wrong with the whole EMT penalty fares system.
A TVM should give the choice of an Off Peak or an Anytime at 6am for journeys where Off Peak tickets are valid at that time. Do they not do so? Examples would be good. If any are not giving that choice then it is scandalous.
No you didn't but I could sense that was the way the debate was going. The train companies complaining about fare evasion is the same as someone complaining that the grass on their back lawn is getting long and needs cutting.
When I started commuting a couple of times a week four years ago I was stunned how infrequently tickets were checked. On the odd occasion RPI got on the train, two things would happen. Firstly, a lot of the regular travellers would leave the train even though it was not their stop. Secondly, the first or second person checked would be ticketless and the next two or three stations would be spent with RPI sorting the offender out. At which time it would be time for them (RPI) to get off the train. One or two caught, some more arriving for work half an hour late, and the best part of a whole train unchecked. The answer was straightforward but the company didn't really increase ticket checks for two years after that and the impact was immediate. Regular checks meant fewer people evading. Simple. But since then they have cut back on checks again. And all this is at 8:30 in the morning with barely a hoodie in sight.
blacknight
Member
Whats wrong with EMT aka Stagecoach is they are mistaking TVM for a replacement for a fully interactive ticket office.
Find both their website & National Rail for stations they operate rather misleading surely they know if station as ticket office or not. Maybe truth will be
for them Its catch 22 I dont know which is correct ticket for my journey but EMT answer is that you must or we fine you, with that logic its like reasoning with a Daleks.
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On my patch of EMT route off peak is not valid until after 0900.
royaloak
Established Member
I am sure some of our ticketing experts could find a dozen trips from your local station where an off peak ticket is valid at 0400.
Aictos
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There are still PERTIS machines available on the Hertford Loop at certain stations, Palmers Green, Bowes Park, Grange Park and Watton at Stone still had them at the last count which was last week.
They really ought to put one back in at Hertford especially when the TVMs decide not to work!
Failed Unit
Established Member
Yep a classic example of my other point, TVM not accepting a credit card, ticket office closed you have small change and no PERTIS. Instant fine as you must be a fare dodger!
For some reason in Scotland thier TVM are no longer taking cash, anyone know why. Is it anything to do with yobs and large crow bars?
CarterUSM
Established Member
Some have been broken into. A sum of around 50k nicked I believe. They will no longer accept cash for the forseeable future. Except at large terminii such as central or waverley.
Aictos
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TVM is exact change only but you only have a £10 or £20 note, the fare is £3.69.
You can't obviously get change from the machine and there's no PERTIS or staff available plus the local shop isn't open.
Unless you get a RPI who understands that it wasn't possible to get a ticket before you boarded then there's a instant PF.
TVMs are acceptable to a degree but they don't do tickets which people want such as group save tickets or priv tickets.
You can't obviously get change from the machine and there's no PERTIS or staff available plus the local shop isn't open.
Unless you get a RPI who understands that it wasn't possible to get a ticket before you boarded then there's a instant PF.
TVMs are acceptable to a degree but they don't do tickets which people want such as group save tickets or priv tickets.
Failed Unit
Established Member
Would you trust a TVM with a £10 note on a £3.70 fare? I certainly wouldn't (on past experience of it just taking it) luckily most of them accept credit cards now. Unfortunately RPI's and TOC's seem to work on a guilty until proven innocent when it comes to not paying the correct fare. I would be interested if it got to court and you had taken pictures on a mobile phone camera of the machine refusing your credit card if the case would be thrown out?
In Scotland however, if you have a ticket to Edinburgh Haymarket and decide to stay on to Edinburgh Waverley (as you change your mind on route) most gate staff wave you through. Maybe vending a 10p ticket isn't worth the hassle. I guess I am a fare dodger for doing it however.
In my experience all Merseyrail stations are staffed until the last train departs. That, plus the willingness of the on train security/inspectors to enforce byelaws, seems to keep anti-social behaviour (and presumably fare evasion) low on late night trains in a city not without social problems.
In Greater Manchester, in contrast, smaller stations are unstaffed at all times and even larger ones are unstaffed in the evenings. Also it is rare for ticket inspections to take place on trains much after 2000 and the anti-social fare evading element know this.
Also in GM, the trams too seem to have a no ticket inspection policy in the evenings, which must also encourage fare evasion, whereas in Sheffield tickets are checked/sold on even the latest trams.
In Greater Manchester, in contrast, smaller stations are unstaffed at all times and even larger ones are unstaffed in the evenings. Also it is rare for ticket inspections to take place on trains much after 2000 and the anti-social fare evading element know this.
Also in GM, the trams too seem to have a no ticket inspection policy in the evenings, which must also encourage fare evasion, whereas in Sheffield tickets are checked/sold on even the latest trams.
royaloak - Excellent point, you beat me to it!
I will now oblige and produce a list blacknight - what's your patch (just roughly)? If I take Nottingham as an example, I'll give some example destinations and the time 'Off Peak' (not Day or Super) tickets are valid from (routed Any Permitted): York (0400), Birmingham (0930), London (arrive London 1005), Taunton (0500), Glasgow (0415), Leicester (0900). I would be interested to hear if the York, London, Taunton and Glasgow Off Peak fares (to name just 4 examples out of hundreds!) are available from TVMs before 0900 as they certainly should be!
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The other day I tried to get a ticket at a FCC station which accepted a £5 note but swallowed the coins. I got the £5 back (ironically as coins) but lost the coins (about £3). I called the help point to report it and was asked where I was going and was told I could make my journey. My advice would be to use a help point, where provided, although I don't think it could be considered 'essential' as I'm pretty sure there were no instructions telling people to do that, I just saw the help point on the platform and it occurred to me it would be a good idea to use it.
Yes, it didn't take me long to realise which button to press! But I guess some people may panic and consider it an 'emergency' (especially the way the TOCs threaten customers and assume guilt - unlike in any other industry) so I wouldn't be totally surprised if someone presses the wrong button!
Some kids pressed the emergency button at Oxford Circus on Sunday and it 'rang' for a few rings then was cancelled. They'd walked off, so I guess someone was watching the CCTV camera pointed right at it.
When they went in at St Pancras (low level), someone was testing them and it took well over a minute for someone to answer! I wouldn't like to rely on one of those at an empty station like New Southgate at 1.30am, CCTV or not.
When they went in at St Pancras (low level), someone was testing them and it took well over a minute for someone to answer! I wouldn't like to rely on one of those at an empty station like New Southgate at 1.30am, CCTV or not.
Aictos
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As far as I know, nearly all help points are covered by a minimum of 1 CCTV camera, it's only a few stations which gets left alone and allowed to project a rundown image which doesn't have CCTV.
It doesn't take long for the help point provided the area has CCTV for the operator to bring up the camera and offer assistance.
It doesn't take long for the help point provided the area has CCTV for the operator to bring up the camera and offer assistance.
blacknight
Member
Think even EMT aka Stagecoach would be hard pressed to define 0400 as peak time service, still its nice to now my ticket is valid when I am in bed.
Sure ticket maybe valid but not much use if there is no service at that time from local station, as first train BIN-NOT is not until 0633, which is classed as peak time until after 0900.
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I will be in Nottingham around 0800 tomorrow so shall see what TVM is offering ticketwise at that time to quoted detinations.
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Lampshade
Established Member
The overnight TPE services defined as being peak services :?
Failed Unit
Established Member
As are most services arriving into London and most major cities before 0730. I think operators miss a trick here by not changing the CDR restrictions to banned between say 0700 and 1000. A few people may move from peak trains to "off-peak" with such an incentive. I have not been on an overcrowded train into London arriving before 0730. A lot are full length as the diagram will send it out of London and get it back in again before the peak is in full flow.
Not true I have had my ticket checked recently on two late Saturday night trips (approx midnight) from Manchester, once between Market St and Shudehill and also once between Victoria and Woodlands Rd. I have not had my ticket checked in the day in my last 10 trips (however I have seen inspectors board other trams).
The train itself isn't a 'peak' train as such, and an Off Peak ticket to many destinations will be valid on that train.
cool, I'd be interested to hear the results
An Off Peak ticket is valid on the early trains up to around 3am the next morning. So the solution is to buy the ticket before midnight! Yes, really!
Failed Unit
Established Member
It is interesting that on this thread most people are of the opinion that the TOC's should take more action to prevent fare evasion themselves before moaning to the press...
Lampshade
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