One Or Multiple City Centre Stations In Provincial English Cities?

[daodao]

Building HS2 north of Crewe, and high speed connections from Leeds and Liverpool to Manchester, are unaffordable post Brexit and Covid. The UK (which probably won't exist as a united entity for much longer) will have to make do and mend with respect to its rail systems, like other English-speaking countries of diminishing fortune such as the USA. This includes proposals to centralise long-distance rail services on 1 station in those big provincial cities (including Manchester) that still have two major stations. The sorry episode of Crossrail should make the government wary of rail projects involving large scale tunnelling through cities, like the proposed tunnel on HS2 phase 2b from Manchester Airport to the city centre, which is key to HS NPR. The only other option is to let China, rapidly becoming the dominant country of the 21st century, take over; they do know about how to build high speed rail. However, the current UK government is antagonising China by fussing about the Uigurs and HK.

 

[yorksrob]

Building HS2 north of Crewe, and high speed connections from Leeds and Liverpool to Manchester, are unaffordable post Brexit and Covid. The UK (which probably won't exist as a united entity for much longer) will have to make do and mend with respect to its rail systems, like other English-speaking countries of diminishing fortune such as the USA. This includes proposals to centralise long-distance rail services on 1 station in those big provincial cities (including Manchester) that still have two major stations. The sorry episode of Crossrail should make the government wary of rail projects involving large scale tunnelling through cities, like the proposed tunnel on HS2 phase 2b from Manchester Airport to the city centre, which is key to HS NPR. The only other option is to let China, rapidly becoming the dominant country of the 21st century, take over; they do know about how to build high speed rail. However, the current UK government is antagonising China by fussing about the Uigurs and HK.

You seem in a bad mood today.

 

[zwk500]

Building HS2 north of Crewe, and high speed connections from Leeds and Liverpool to Manchester, are unaffordable post Brexit and Covid.

We're still way too early to know the long-term effects of either Brexsit or COVID for sure, but early data and models suggest that HS2 will be serving exactly the kind of travel people will be wanting to do.

The UK (which probably won't exist as a united entity for much longer) will have to make do and mend with respect to its rail systems, like other English-speaking countries of diminishing fortune such as the USA. This includes proposals to centralise long-distance rail services on 1 station in those big provincial cities (including Manchester) that still have two major stations. The sorry episode of Crossrail should make the government wary of rail projects involving large scale tunnelling through cities, like the proposed tunnel on HS2 phase 2b from Manchester Airport to the city centre, which is key to HS NPR.

Most of this isn't new - the government has been wary of major rail investment since the 1955 plan, and the UK has had a 'make do and mend' attitude to it's rail network since the 70s.

The only other option is to let China, rapidly becoming the dominant country of the 21st century, take over; they do know about how to build high speed rail. However, the current UK government is antagonising China by fussing about the Uigurs and HK.

The reason China is able to build HSR so quickly is that people aren't allowed to object, property rights aren't really a thing, and they don't give a fig about the environmental impacts. Not to mention a lot of their lines have been built as purely political tools to assert control over the distant regions. The permanency of their government also allows them to have much clearer long-term plans.

 

[BrianW]

You seem in a bad mood today.

I agree. I think that if I were a Uigur or Hong Konger I would be pleased for a fuss to be made.

Building HS2 north of Crewe, and high speed connections from Leeds and Liverpool to Manchester, are unaffordable post Brexit and Covid. The UK (which probably won't exist as a united entity for much longer) will have to make do and mend with respect to its rail systems, like other English-speaking countries of diminishing fortune such as the USA. This includes proposals to centralise long-distance rail services on 1 station in those big provincial cities (including Manchester) that still have two major stations. The sorry episode of Crossrail should make the government wary of rail projects involving large scale tunnelling through cities, like the proposed tunnel on HS2 phase 2b from Manchester Airport to the city centre, which is key to HS NPR. The only other option is to let China, rapidly becoming the dominant country of the 21st century, take over; they do know about how to build high speed rail. However, the current UK government is antagonising China by fussing about the Uigurs and HK.

Is it the case that it's the tunneling that has 'done for' Crossrail' and like ideas? The impression I have, perhaps wrongly, is that it was the overambition related to signalling and integrating of different 'systems', rather as happened with Thameslink too- overpromising resulting in disappointment and blaming- rather as with GW Electrification too. I would have thought (again happy to be corrected) that tunneling in Manchester could be rather strignhtforward- what killed the previous Pic-Vic idea?

Regarding crossing the throat at Piccadilly- is it totally impossible to create a flying or burrowing connection east-west? How many people (or peaktime freight?) actually travel form west of Piccadilly to the east (or vice versa) (eg Liverpool- Sheffield) that would be overly inconvenienced by a change of train at Piccadilly?

 

[daodao]

I think that if I were a Uigur or Hong Konger I would be pleased for a fuss to be made.

I am not arguing against the UK government making a fuss about these matters, but merely pointing out that it antagonises China and thus potential expert Chinese support for HS rail development in the UK.

tunneling in Manchester could be rather strignhtforward- what killed the previous Pic-Vic idea?

My recollection was that the soil in Manchester city centre was heavy wet clay, but stand to be corrected. The mid-to-late 1970s was a financially challenging time for the UK, and the Picc-Vic scheme was abandoned in 1977 owing to excessive cost.

 

[Glenn1969]

But my thought has always been that similar scheme in London would have been built regardless of the cost. See Crossrail 2 which was greenlit at the same time as Castlefield was put on indefinite hold

 

[Hey 3]

I am not arguing against the UK government making a fuss about these matters, but merely pointing out that it antagonises China and thus potential expert Chinese support for HS rail development in the UK.


My recollection was that the soil in Manchester city centre was heavy wet clay, but stand to be corrected. The mid-to-late 1970s was a financially challenging time for the UK, and the Picc-Vic scheme was abandoned in 1977 owing to excessive cost.

Sorry for going OT but I think the Japanese have better experience than the Chinese(they do have fairly good experience) and maybe the French and Germans too.

 

[HSTEd]

Unless you want to build lines entirely on viaducts, Chinese technical help is of almost no value

 

[Hey 3]

Unless you want to build lines entirely on viaducts, Chinese technical help is of almost no value

They build on viaducts only?

 

[HSTEd]

They build on viaducts only?

Viaducts with tens of thousands of identical spans that run for hundreds of kilometres is a major feature of Chinese practice

 

[Hey 3]

Viaducts with tens of thousands of identical spans that run for hundreds of kilometres is a major feature of Chinese practice

Ah ok.

 

[Purple Orange]

Even if there were 6 or 8 through platforms at Piccadilly, you still wouldn't want to path the 2 (in normal times) TPE's per hour across the entire throat.

I know this thread is a bit of a ‘what-if’ scenario discussion, but even a 4-track Castlefield and two additional platforms at Piccadilly, the whole Central Manchester network is unsuitable for intercity traffic. It needs to be purely commuter services. Liverpool-Sheffield is a problem, as are Scotland services, because no long term solution has been identified to remove them from the current network.

Regarding crossing the throat at Piccadilly- is it totally impossible to create a flying or burrowing connection east-west? How many people (or peaktime freight?) actually travel form west of Piccadilly to the east (or vice versa) (eg Liverpool- Sheffield) that would be overly inconvenienced by a change of train at Piccadilly?

I don’t think it will be that high. Liverpool - Sheffield has been 1 tph on a 2-4 car EMR service for years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am not arguing against the UK government making a fuss about these matters, but merely pointing out that it antagonises China and thus potential expert Chinese support for HS rail development in the UK.

The French, Germans, Italians and Spaniards have been at it long enough, indeed that's precisely why FS is part of the Avanti consortium. No need to get a country that has difficulty behaving itself involved.

 

[Ianno87]

The French, Germans, Italians and Spaniards have been at it long enough, indeed that's precisely why FS is part of the Avanti consortium. No need to get a country that has difficulty behaving itself involved.

Quite right. Absolutely spades of high speed experience right on our own doorstep. And some good pitfalls to learn from too.

But my thought has always been that similar scheme in London would have been built regardless of the cost. See Crossrail 2 which was greenlit at the same time as Castlefield was put on indefinite hold

Crossrail 2 is now very much on the back-burner now, officially paused. My money is on it not returning until something resembling "NPR" is up and running in the North.

 

[Hey 3]

Quite right. Absolutely spades of high speed experience right on our own doorstep. And some good pitfalls to learn from too.



Crossrail 2 is now very much on the back-burner now, officially paused. My money is on it not returning until something resembling "NPR" is up and running in the North.

That is the new lines from Liverpool to Manchester via WBQ and Manchester to Leeds via Bradford........
Oh wait, it is going to be TPRU of course and a failed Chat Moss or Warrington C upgrade............

 

[Purple Orange]

That is the new lines from Liverpool to Manchester via WBQ and Manchester to Leeds via Bradford........
Oh wait, it is going to be TPRU of course and a failed Chat Moss or Warrington C upgrade............

What makes you think that?

 

[Glenn1969]

Treasury desire to save money. I think the same

 

[Mcr Warrior]

When Manchester Oxford Road station was originally opened in 1849, in the middle of the lengthy section of double track on the viaduct, which services called or passed through, other than just Manchester South Junction and Altrincham services terminating from Altrincham?

 

[Hey 3]

When Manchester Oxford Road station was originally opened in 1849, in the middle of the lengthy section of double track on the viaduct, which services called or passed through, other than just Manchester South Junction and Altrincham services terminating from Altrincham?

Chester services(I think, as well as also from 1969) when Manchester Central closed, Chester fasts/semi-fasts were diverted to Manchester Oxford Road via Brooklands and Ashley.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I think the Mid Cheshire line didn't open until c. 1863.

Point I'm (clumsily) trying to make is that the ex MSJ+A viaduct is now being asked to carry far more traffic than ever it was originally intended to when built in the late 1840s.

 

[daodao]

When Manchester Oxford Road station was originally opened in 1849, in the middle of the lengthy section of double track on the viaduct, which services called or passed through, other than just Manchester South Junction and Altrincham services terminating from Altrincham?

Within a few years (from 1854), there were also trains to Warrington BQ LL and beyond via Dunham Massey (see my moniker for a photo from the 1950s). In 1909, trains on the newly opened Styal loop line ran through to Oxford Road. In 1910, there was also 1 train per day from Bolton (Great Moor Street) with through carriages for Euston.

I think the Mid Cheshire line didn't open until 1863.

CLC services from Chester (via Knutsford) and from Liverpool (via Warrington Central) did run via the Castlefield line for a few years after these lines opened, but from 1880 to 1969, they were routed into Manchester Central.

 

[Hey 3]

Within a few years (from 1854), there were also trains to Warrington BQ LL and beyond via Dunham Massey (see my moniker for a photo from the 1950s). In 1909, trains on the newly opened Styal loop line ran through to Oxford Road. In 1910, there was also 1 train per day from Bolton (Great Moor Street) with through carriages for Euston.

Were they the services between Manchester Oxford Road and Alderley Edge(via Styal, and later extended to Altrincham and Crewe)?

 

[daodao]

Were they the services between Manchester Oxford Road and Alderley Edge(via Styal, and later extended to Altrincham and Crewe)?

Eventually, yes, but when the Styal line was originally opened, most of the area it served was rural and services were fairly infrequent. The parallel Kingsway (with a reserved track tramway) was not built until the late 1920s, when the area was developed for housing (largely municipal).