Open Access Operator for Newark North Gate

[Purple Train]

So why does Hull Trains (a fellow First Group TOC) serve Howden?

Because there's less of a time penalty for stopping at Howden than stopping at somewhere on a 125mph main line when your path has been squeezed in, so to speak. It got about 100,000 passengers a year pre-COVID, which isn't bad for an inconvenient station in the middle of nowhere, and, given the relatively low number of trains that use the line, it could almost be a case of why not call at Howden? North Gate, however, due to the time penalty, would need some form of justification.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Because there's less of a time penalty for stopping at Howden than stopping at somewhere on a 125mph main line when your path has been squeezed in, so to speak. It got about 100,000 passengers a year pre-COVID, which isn't bad for an inconvenient station in the middle of nowhere, and, given the relatively low number of trains that use the line, it could almost be a case of why not call at Howden? North Gate, however, due to the time penalty, would need some form of justification.

True, fair point.

GC already have that market. What figures have you seen to lead you to believe demand for Newark Bradford journeys warrants slowing the already very slow* service (*a whole extra hour on Wakefield London on LNER)

I have no figures, all speculation.

Hull trains provide direct London services from quite a few East Yorkshire stations which have no other or few direct London services. I suspect the free (it was last time I looked) parking at Howden is a draw for people from out of the immediate area, and the fact that you dont have town centre traffic to contend with when travelling to and from Howden. I assume their bean counters have done the sums and it makes sense for them to call there. If anything I could see them dropping the Grantham stop on the most popular services as they would rather have East Yorkshire - London passengers than Grantham - London ones, and I dont see a lot of people getting off at Grantham southbound or joining northbound.

The fact that Hull trains have been using a double 5 car set on some popular services shows demand is there. When we last travelled train was full, both bits.

Note that Howden can't even handle 5 carriage trains. National Rail still lists the parking as free.

 

[mike57]

Note that Howden can't even handle 5 carriage trains. National Rail still lists the parking as free.

When we were in the back half of a 10 carriage to London we were on the Hull side of the crossing when stopped. I think 3 maybe 4 carriages were on the platform.

 

[YorkRailFan]

When we were in the back half of a 10 carriage to London we were on the Hull side of the crossing when stopped. I think 3 maybe 4 carriages were on the platform.

I remember seeing 5 car 180s which couldn't fit on the East bound platform at Howden.

 

[willgreen]

Does Howden really need a London service?

It opens up a new market which has no other London service. On the other hand Newark is already well served to London. Clearly it is a better use of OA resources to stop at Howden - untapping a new market - than to stop at already well-served Newark, whilst also having fewer pathing and abstraction issues (bearing in mind the ORR doesn’t necessarily actually like competition - an OA operator isn’t just allowed to nick all of a franchise’s custom).

 

[YorkRailFan]

It opens up a new market which has no other London service. On the other hand Newark is already well served to London. Clearly it is a better use of OA resources to stop at Howden - untapping a new market - than to stop at already well-served Newark, whilst also having fewer pathing and abstraction issues (bearing in mind the ORR doesn’t necessarily actually like competition - an OA operator isn’t just allowed to nick all of a franchise’s custom).

Have you actually been to Howden and it's station?

 

[NSE]

Have you actually been to Howden and its station?

I haven’t, but that’s not the point. Many stations serve more than the town they share their name with. Howden no doubt brings in more than just Howden residents. Now, I’m sure you’ll be quick to say Newark brings in more than just Newark residents, and it does! No one ever said it didn’t. But Newark *has* frequent London services. Howden had nothing to London before HT (unless the once daily KGX service served it, and even then, was that only in response to HT? - not my neck of the woods!)

 

[YorkRailFan]

I haven’t, but that’s not the point. Many stations serve more than the town they share their name with. Howden no doubt brings in more than just Howden residents. Now, I’m sure you’ll be quick to say Newark brings in more than just Newark residents, and it does! No one ever said it didn’t. But Newark *has* frequent London services. Howden had nothing to London before HT (unless the once daily KGX service served it, and even then, was that only in response to HT? - not my neck of the woods!)

The only place remotely near to Howden that could justify a London service is probably Goole.

 

[NSE]

The only place remotely near to Howden that could justify a London service is probably Goole.

Yes but a quick NR map check shows me Goole and Howden are on different routes to Hull.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Yes but a quick NR map check shows me Goole and Howden are on different routes to Hull.

Correct, but my point is that theoretically people could drive between the two, though I doubt people drive from Goole to Howden, though I do know that people drive from Howden to Goole and get the more frequent Northern service to Doncaster or Sheffield.

 

[mike57]

The only place remotely near to Howden that could justify a London service is probably Goole.

Yes but a quick NR map check shows me Goole and Howden are on different routes to Hull.

Have you actually been to Howden and it's station?

I am familiar with Howden, as a station its in the middle of nowhere north of Howden the town, but for anyone living in the area bounded by Goole, Hemingborough, Gilberdyke, and maybe even North Cave its a good rail head, free parking, and because of its location not subject to town centre congestion, unlike Selby or Goole. Its not a highly populated area but it does generate rail traffic.

Goole is on a different line but is only about 3 miles away, so unless I am within walking distance of Goole station if I am travelling south of Doncaster and need to use a car to get to the station I would consider using Howden as I then dont need to change at Doncaster.

Its not a fast route (75mph I think) so the impact of the stop on journey time is minimal, and given that HT stop there, and they are an OAO it must be worth their while.

Here is a view of the station, London bound platform on the left, Hull bound on the right, car park over the crossing on the left. Taken from StreetView

 

[Clarence Yard]

Howden is now a railhead for a large area. Check out the roads to Howden. HT grew the London-Howden flows alone from just over £50 a year (!) to £750k a year, nearly all new business to rail.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I am familiar with Howden, as a station its in the middle of nowhere north of Howden the town, but for anyone living in the area bounded by Goole, Hemingborough, Gilberdyke, and maybe even North Cave its a good rail head, free parking, and because of its location not subject to town centre congestion, unlike Selby or Goole. Its not a highly populated area but it does generate rail traffic.

Goole is on a different line but is only about 3 miles away, so unless I am within walking distance of Goole station if I am travelling south of Doncaster and need to use a car to get to the station I would consider using Howden as I then dont need to change at Doncaster.

Its not a fast route (75mph I think) so the impact of the stop on journey time is minimal, and given that HT stop there, and they are an OAO it must be worth their while.

Here is a view of the station, London bound platform on the left, Hull bound on the right, car park over the crossing on the left. Taken from StreetView

View attachment 147457

I am fully aware of Howden's station, used it countless times and used Northern's York-Hull service which stops at Howden hourly. People tend to use Goole more when solely going to Doncaster as Goole has a more frequent Doncaster service than Howden.

 

[Neptune]

I am fully aware of Howden's station, used it countless times and used Northern's York-Hull service which stops at Howden hourly. People tend to use Goole more when solely going to Doncaster as Goole has a more frequent Doncaster service than Howden.

You talk about this subject like HT’s sole target market is Howden. Brough and Selby don’t get a look in as you fixate on Howden to make your argument for Newark look strong. Howden is the lucky winner due to HT’s route via SBY and can be used as a railhead for the likes of Goole. Goole of course has 2tph to/from Doncaster for onward connections whereas Selby (a bigger market) has, without the HT service, 1tpd in either direction to/from the railhead of Doncaster.

Those from Goole have 2tph to/from Doncaster.

 

[YorkRailFan]

You talk about this subject like HT’s sole target market is Howden. Brough and Selby don’t get a look in as you fixate on Howden to make your argument for Newark look strong. Howden is the lucky winner due to HT’s route via SBY and can be used as a railhead for the likes of Goole. Goole of course has 2tph to/from Doncaster for onward connections whereas Selby (a bigger market) has, without the HT service, 1tpd in either direction to/from the railhead of Doncaster.

Those from Goole have 2tph to/from Doncaster.

Selby has demand for a London service, Howden benefits from Goole, without Goole, Howden likely wouldn't have a HT service.

 

[mike57]

Selby (a bigger market) has, without the HT service, 1tpd in either direction to/from the railhead of Doncaster.

Apart from Hull Trains everything else from the Hull direction into Selby goes west towards Leeds or west then north towards York (Apart from a couple of late Northern services which I assume are to retain route knowledge), so without HT you have to go to Leeds or York to change for London

 

[Neptune]

Selby has demand for a London service, Howden benefits from Goole, without Goole, Howden likely wouldn't have a HT service.

And your point is…….??

Apart from Hull Trains everything else from the Hull direction into Selby goes west towards Leeds or west then north towards York (Apart from a couple of late Northern services which I assume are to retain route knowledge), so without HT you have to go to Leeds or York to change for London

Precisely. In this scenario both Selby and Goole benefit from the Doncaster link with the bonus being that Howden gets a direct service and is used as a railhead for surrounding areas.

This Howden attack from the OP is all looking like a convenient diversion away from the original post about Newark which has had a cool response.

 

[NSE]

Maybe the real underlying story is that we’ve all missed the market for a direct Howden - Newark service. I’d run it as an OAO (naturally) and run via Leeds but not call there, the only intermediate stops would be Outwood and Featherstone.

 

[YorkRailFan]

And your point is…….??

Howden Station doesn't only serve Howden.

Maybe the real underlying story is that we’ve all missed the market for a direct Howden - Newark service. I’d run it as an OAO (naturally) and run via Leeds but not call there, the only intermediate stops would be Outwood and Featherstone.

I'd run it via Inverness, just to be sure.

 

[willgreen]

Howden Station doesn't only serve Howden.

So why then are you arguing that Howden doesn’t deserve a London service?!

 

[Neptune]

Howden Station doesn't only serve Howden.

Which is what many of us all said numerous times. Only you tried to argue against serving Howden, don’t try and make out that it was the other way around please.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Which is what many of us all said numerous times. Only you tried to argue against serving Howden, don’t try and make out that it was the other way around please.

I'm not trying to make that out.