Open Access TOCs and Passengers' Charter obligations

[BRX]

Are open access operators somehow excluded from the requirements of the passengers' charter?

I was recently on a heavily delayed (well over an hour) GC service and wrote to them asking what compensation they would offer.

I was travelling on an "any permitted route" off-peak return.

They have said they will offer me a single ticket from London to York, which is not really much use to me. Ought they to offer me any-operator vouchers as is usually the case or are things different when it comes to open-access TOCs?

 

[First class]

It's up to the individual TOC what you get under their charter...

They could offer you a £1 voucher if they wanted.

Get the ticket and sell it on eBay.

 

[tony_mac]

I can't find a Passenger's Charter for Grand Central - even though they refer to it in their 'complaints' document.

I don't know what the OFT would say, they weren't terribly pleased with the idea of travel vouchers in the first place.

The OFT raised concerns with the fact that this term appeared to suggest that consumers would only be provided with travel vouchers (rather than cash) where compensation was required for delays in journey times. However, the OFT's concerns were withdrawn in view of the fact the Strategic Rail Authority has confirmed that it currently has no concerns with this approach, which it considers flexible and which it has monitored through its National Passenger Survey.

 

[yorkie]

What was the cause of the delay? For many delay types where it is considered outside their control, TOCs don't have to give anything.

For a delay of over an hour I believe the standard compensation is 50% of the cost of that leg, but by giving you a free trip they are effectively doubling that so I wouldn't complain! If it is of no use to you I am sure you will find someone who can use it.
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I don't know what the OFT would say, they weren't terribly pleased with the idea of travel vouchers in the first place.

are they pleased that on buses they give you nothing, and taxi drivers actually bill the customer for the delay?

 

[BRX]

What was the cause of the delay? For many delay types where it is considered outside their control, TOCs don't have to give anything.

For a delay of over an hour I believe the standard compensation is 50% of the cost of that leg, but by giving you a free trip they are effectively doubling that so I wouldn't complain! If it is of no use to you I am sure you will find someone who can use it.
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are they pleased that on buses they give you nothing, and taxi drivers actually bill the customer for the delay?

It was a power car failure - I don't think they can really complain that it was out of their control. The eventual delay was something like 3 hours.

I was actually travelling on the return portion of a London-Inverness OPR (going via Sunderland is a permitted route although obviously not a very direct one).

Previously, suffering a similarly major delay on a NXEC London-Inverness service, NXEC refunded (in non-TOC specific vouchers) 100% of my return ticket cost (about £125) which I have to say seemed insanely generous but I didn't complain!

So I was curious to see what GC offered. Like others have commented, their Passengers' Charter doesn't seem to be available anywhere. I was wondering whether this was because they don't have to have one, being an open access operator.

Actually, it seems difficult to find any information about Passengers' Charters in general - can find anything on the DfT website.

Can each TOC just decide themselves what they offer? I thought that there were minimums set out that they had to comply with, for delays of over an hour at least.

 

[John @ home]

Actually, it seems difficult to find any information about Passengers' Charters in general - can find anything on the DfT website.

Can each TOC just decide themselves what they offer? I thought that there were minimums set out that they had to comply with, for delays of over an hour at least.

DfT are gradually moving to a different compensation scheme for franchised TOCs. TOCs with older franchises do not offer compensation for some types of delays. For example the TPE Passenger's Charter says:

http://www.tpexpress.co.uk/MediaLibrary/Passengers_Charter/pass_chart_5.pdf
If you hold a ticket for a single or return journey, or a weekly Season Ticket (not PTE products), and delay to a First TransPennine Express service adds 30 minutes or longer to your journey, we will offer you National Rail travel vouchers for the full cost of the leg of your journey which was delayed, i.e. 100% compensation for single tickets and 50% for return tickets. If you are delayed for more than one hour, we will offer you National Rail travel vouchers for the full cost of your entire journey.
The arrangements for compensation do not apply for certain delays which are outside our control. We describe these on page 19.
(and on page 19) ... Certain causes of delay are outside the control of the railway industry, and we do not include these when we calculate our punctuality and reliability for compensation purposes. These include vandalism, fatalities, security alerts and severe weather conditions.

More recently franchised TOCs offer compensation for delays irrespective of the cause. For example the EMT Passenger's Charter says:

http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/NR/rdonlyres/70964B9B-6B1D-4AFA-B40B-98A54C771CAE/0/Passengerscharter.pdf
Delays and cancellations
If you are delayed we will pay the following compensation in National Rail vouchers:
• 30 – 59 minutes delayed: You will be refunded half of the cost of that part of your journey
• One hour or more delayed: You will be refunded the full cost of that part of your journey
• Over 2 hours delayed: You will be refunded the whole cost of your return ticket.

The EMT scheme has no exclusion clause.

I agree that the Charters for GC and HT do not appear to be on their web sites. The WSMR Charter is here but is less generous that those of the franchised TOCs:

If delays occur we’ll get you to your destination as soon as possible. If you miss your last train because of a delay to one of our services, we will arrange onward transport either by road or with another train company.
• On all trains you will be offered complimentary non-alcoholic refreshments if your train is delayed by 1 hour or more.
• If the train you planned to catch is delayed or cancelled, you decide not to travel, and, at that time, you return your unused ticket to any ticket office we will give you an immediate full refund. No administration fee will be charged.

John

 

[HORNIMANS]

You are not allowed to sell train tickets on e-bay, it's illegal

 

[krus_aragon]

You are not allowed to sell train tickets on e-bay, it's illegal

Not valid ones at least. There are plenty of old ones...

 

[First class]

You are not allowed to sell train tickets on e-bay, it's illegal

Thats not strictly correct.

Depends whether GC have endorsed this ticket as 'Not Transferrable'.

 

[BRX]

DfT are gradually moving to a different compensation scheme for franchised TOCs. TOCs with older franchises do not offer compensation for some types of delays. For example the TPE Passenger's Charter says:


More recently franchised TOCs offer compensation for delays irrespective of the cause. For example the EMT Passenger's Charter says:
The EMT scheme has no exclusion clause.

I agree that the Charters for GC and HT do not appear to be on their web sites. The WSMR Charter is here but is less generous that those of the franchised TOCs:

John

This inconsistency is a bit rubbish really, isn't it.

Just like the "simpler fares" fiasco - people should be able to understand easily and clearly what they are getting in return for their money when they buy a ticket. I would say that compensation in the event of serious delays is part of that.

Compensation obligations ought to be consistent over all operators, and set by the DfT.


I'm still not clear whether GC are supposed to have a passengers' charter of any kind, or not? Only compulsory for regular franchisees?

 

[yorkie]

It must be a voucher for a ticket, this will be transferrable.

I think you could refuse this, if it's a voucher for GC only and demand a 'proper' rail voucher that is usable with any TOC, under the NCoC. However the sum of the voucher GC is obliged to give (as per NCoC) is much lower than value of the GC only voucher they appear to be offering therefore I advise against doing this.

If you don't want the voucher then sell it/give it to someone who does.
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Compensation obligations ought to be consistent over all operators, and set by the DfT.

Minimum obligations are in the NCoC. Many TOCs choose (or are forced by the DfT) to go beyond this, in some cases a long way beyond it!

I still do have to question why railway operators should give compensation for delays due to events not in their control, while other transport providers do not?

 

[glynn80]

Are open access operators somehow excluded from the requirements of the passengers' charter?

I was recently on a heavily delayed (well over an hour) GC service and wrote to them asking what compensation they would offer.

I was travelling on an "any permitted route" off-peak return.

They have said they will offer me a single ticket from London to York, which is not really much use to me. Ought they to offer me any-operator vouchers as is usually the case or are things different when it comes to open-access TOCs?

The minimum compensation limits a TOC is bound by are held in the NRCoC under section H.

H. TRAIN SERVICE DISRUPTION

42. Compensation for delays

(a) Where delays, cancellations or poor service arise for reasons within the
control of a Train Company or Rail Service Company, you are entitled to
compensation in accordance with the arrangements set out in that Train
Company's Passenger’s Charter. This can be obtained from the relevant Train
Company’s ticket offices, customer relations office or internet site.

(b) The amount of compensation offered by each Train Company in its Passenger’s Charter varies from Train Company to Train Company. However, if you are more than one hour late at your destination station you will, as a minimum, be entitled to compensation in the form of travel vouchers in accordance with the table below:

Ticket held: Single ticket, Amount in vouchers: 20% of the price paid

Ticket held: Return ticket with delay on outward or return journey, Amount in vouchers: 10% of the price paid

Ticket held: Return ticket with delay on both the outward and return journey, Amount in vouchers: 20% of the price paid

Ticket held: 7-Day Season Ticket for each day a delay occurs, Amount in vouchers: 20% of the price paid ÷ 7

Ticket held: Monthly or longer period Season Ticket, Amount in vouchers: The discount or compensation arrangements in the relevant Train Company’s Passenger’s Charter apply.

The table above does not apply if you are entitled to a refund in accordance with Condition 26

So as the OP held an Any Permitted Off Peak Return, GC would legally be obliged to offer 10% of the ticket price (he was only delayed on one leg of the journey) in Rail Vouchers.

If the ticket was undiscounted, this would be 10% of £132.50 or £13.25 in Rail Vouchers. Again I realise vouchers are of no use to the OP, but these vouchers are legally transferable and can be either given to friends/family or sold on (as opposed to the GC single journey vouchers which may not be).

 

[John @ home]

I still do have to question why railway operators should give compensation for delays due to events not in their control, while other transport providers do not?

I agree that there is not (yet) a level playing field, but I would oppose any attempt to level downwards. All the public transport operators have conditions which require the passengers to surrender their common law right to compensation for consequential loss, whatever the cause. It therefore seems to me to be fair that in exchange the passenger gains the right to defined compensation for delay, whatever the cause.

There is statutory compensation for delays to EU air travel, described here. This applies to all delays, whatever the cause.

It is evident that DfT is moving towards a position of automatic compensation for rail passengers for any delay, whatever the cause, and that this requirement will be included in each new franchise.

I expect Passenger Focus will be pressing for automatic compensation for delayed bus passengers, but for technical reasons this will probably need to await the widespread implementation of payment by smart card.

I'm afraid I don't know anything about compensation arrangements for delayed ship passengers.

John

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I still do have to question why railway operators should give compensation for delays due to events not in their control, while other transport providers do not?

:? Why not? Still seems fair enough if the delay, cancellation or poor service has arisen for reasons within the control of another Train Company or Rail Service Company.

 

[glynn80]

I still do have to question why railway operators should give compensation for delays due to events not in their control, while other transport providers do not?

:? Why not? Still seems fair enough if the delay, cancellation or poor service has arisen for reasons within the control of another Train Company or Rail Service Company.

I think the point yorkie was trying to make was that TOCs are often compensated for delays outside of their control (including incidents which they can then refuse compensation due to) through Delay Attribution.

There is an extensive guide to Delay Attribution on the Network Rail website (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...nts\Delay Attribution Guide&pageid=2889&root=).

 

[yorkie]

I'd like to see one of two things happen:

1) Simplify the compensation culture across all operators and all modes (with buses certainly not escaping from it ) or
2) End the compensation culture, and lower all fares as a result,

I would rather see option 1. However if that is not possible I'd rather have option 2 than the current system where bus companies are able to get away with turning up at random times and not paying a penny in compensation, yet the train companies which may even offer the same journey (and in places like West Yorkshire often for a cheaper fare!) yet have to dish out compensation for a delay. That just isn't right.