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"Operational Incident", Wembley Down Slow

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AlterEgo

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I would say that to the average passenger that sounds scary and worrying. What comfort do they take from that message. Remember they are not an informed customer like you. They may not know how to process or grade that message.

All I hear is safety system. That means something went wrong and something dangerous happened or very nearly happened. That will lead to anxiety and stress.

I don't think it would. The passenger takes no comfort from "operating incident". It arouses feelings from confusion to curiosity to conspiracy.

At the risk of having to fine myself £10 under my own scheme for people who compare railways to airlines...

If the airline industry can describe their delays as "engine isn't working, need two hours to fix it...PS you need to get on the plane as well after that or you're not going to Spain", why does the railway get so precious about operating incidents?
 
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headshot119

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I don't think it would. The passenger takes no comfort from "operating incident". It arouses feelings from confusion to curiosity to conspiracy.

At the risk of having to fine myself £10 under my own scheme for people who compare railways to airlines...

If the airline industry can describe their delays as "engine isn't working, need two hours to fix it...PS you need to get on the plane as well after that or you're not going to Spain", why does the railway get so precious about operating incidents?

The railways should just be honest.

I was stuck on a late running Virgin train, described online and on board as following a slow train in front, quick look at open train times maps showed that was rubbish, but we had been put on the slow lines. Tweeted VT who remained adamant we where behind a slow train, turns out we where put on the slows due to a train awaiting police attendance on the fasts.

I felt more annoyed at being lied to than the delay, and I imagine most people will be the same.


You can fine me under your scheme...

Get on a plane in Rome, pilot advises the aircon isn't working as they are lacking a ground shore supply, but it will work when in the air, understood by all, and the real reason.
 

tbtc

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I don't think it would. The passenger takes no comfort from "operating incident". It arouses feelings from confusion to curiosity to conspiracy

I don't think that the average passenger would be worrying about conspiracies - if I were in that situation I'd be more concerned about knowing what the expected delay would be (will I miss my connection etc).

a lot of this seems to be people wanting "da gen". There is an obvious difference between the spotterish desire to know everything and seem to be in the know and the needs and interests of the general public. I would suggest most people wont care if there was a SPAD or a SPAR or TPWS overspeed or signal changing unexpectedly. You will never convince me they want this information or understand the information or the practical consequences.

Being stuck for an hour is still being stuck for an hour regardless of reason. Knowing it is a SPAD, say, wont get you home any sooner or make the rectification of the problem come any sooner.

As usual, you cut through the froth and put it more succinctly than I could have!

Total agreement here.

The entitlement culture seems to be a growth industry in the UK these days, sadly.

An operating incident could have the potential to be a disciplinary matter depending on the nature of it. This, I think, is why the details should be kept under wraps although, of course, reasons could come out at a later stage.

Agreed - got to be careful if apportioning blame - imagine if this came up at a Tribunal later (that the TOC had publically blamed someone for an alleged failure just because they had to point the finger quickly to satisfy some nosy passengers who wanted a scapegoat, even though the full facts were not yet known).

To the public, "operating incident" sounds vague and distant.

Operational incident doesn't tell you anything

True, but it's not meant to be an answer.

Your train is delayed. Whether that delay was a fault with the train, with the track, with a signal, with staff, with people on the line, with livestock on the line... your train is still delayed.

Would you feel better if the Guard came on to announce that your train had faulty brakes? Would you be reassured if you found that it was because someone had died by throwing themselves in front of the train? How would that knowledge help anyone?
 

boing_uk

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The local authority is coming to close your road so you cant get in while they do some work right outside your house. Why should they tell you what they're doing? The road is closed after all and it makes no practical difference for you to know what they're doing; the road is closed, you cant get your car to your house.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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There's a thing called "open government" which the rail industry is supposed to have signed up for.
Network Rail has changed its spots and published things like working timetables and sectional appendices, which it regarded as state secrets in BR days.
It also publishes data feeds which gives us realtimetrains and other 3rd party sites providing a window on operations and performance, and ATOC publishes fares data.

It's all about being transparent and accountable for the public investment in the industry, not to mention the farepaying passengers.
Also to leverage the skills and enterprise of 3rd party IT suppliers.
But parts of the industry still seem to work on the "need to know" principle which is not compatible with "open government".
 
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AlterEgo

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There's a thing called "open government" which the rail industry is supposed to have signed up for.
Network Rail has changed its spots and published things like working timetables and sectional appendices, which it regarded as state secrets in BR days.
It also publishes data feeds which gives us realtimetrains and other 3rd party sites providing a window on operations and performance, and ATOC publishes fares data.

It's all about being transparent and accountable for the public investment in the industry, not to mention the farepaying passengers.
Also to leverage the skills and enterprise of 3rd party IT suppliers.
But parts of the industry still seem to work on the "need to know" principle which is not compatible with "open government".

Much more eloquently put than I managed. Exactly.

The mentality needs to change.
 

tsr

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The local authority is coming to close your road so you cant get in while they do some work right outside your house. Why should they tell you what they're doing? The road is closed after all and it makes no practical difference for you to know what they're doing; the road is closed, you cant get your car to your house.

Because some of us take an interest in what is being done to maintain, operate and - dare I say it - improve the infrastructure. Even if we can't use it, being involved in our public services helps our communities function better. Involving people in timetabling trains or buses will usually reveal something which can be improved for real-world use. Involving local businesses or charities in the commercial and public spaces of stations often helps them work better. Involving people in the explanations of how the service is actually running, in real time, may shock, concern or worry them if done wrong; but framed correctly (and I am not claiming that is easy!), it will build a picture of how seriously the frontline staff generally take what happens on the ground, let them query it, and let them understand that a delay may occur at the cost of their safety. Understanding that positive actions have to take place, even at the cost of punctuality, may sometimes fall on deaf ears. But for the majority of people, it will at least let them know that the specifics count, that the railway cares about accurately working out how to get round a problem, and that it can be discussed if necessary.

My own interest in the railways, indeed my career, came about largely from trying to understand more and more about how the railway operates, how it should & could operate, and what I can realistically do to help its passengers on their way. I do appreciate that some people have no interest whatsoever in how it all works, and more to the point I appreciate that very few people have any interest in standing at the end of a platform all day with a little notebook, or poring over Quail until 2am. But from what I can tell from discussing things with rather large numbers of people - thousands of passengers over the last few years - almost all prefer discussing how the railway works, as well as seeing it be more transparent, explaining the system and trying to make sense of media report or political spin versus reality. The railway is moaned about because the slightest thing which goes wrong can impact so much. Only by explaining how it works, and how it sometimes doesn't, can people be brought on side and it is the only way to start to get them to generate constructive (positive or negative) feedback to get public money and business strategies to the right places in the very long run.

In other words, passengers can and do actually care, if you discuss it constructively. Not all will. But if you hide things or don't explain the system, they will only care about demolishing it for you.
 
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jamesst

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Much more eloquently put than I managed. Exactly.

The mentality needs to change.

But does it? As used in the example above I can think of no reason why a member of the public would ever need access to and indeed should ever be given access to a sectional appendix?
Some parts do need to be more open admittingly but if I ever made a mistake or had an incident as a driver I wouldn't want my toc twitter account explaining all to the public before I've even had a chance to explain to the management myself!!
 

AlterEgo

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But does it? As used in the example above I can think of no reason why a member of the public would ever need access to and indeed should ever be given access to a sectional appendix?
Some parts do need to be more open admittingly but if I ever made a mistake or had an incident as a driver I wouldn't want my toc twitter account explaining all to the public before I've even had a chance to explain to the management myself!!

You've failed to read my posts. Have another go.

Where did I mention a sectional appendix? Where have I mentioned apportioning blame?

I really wish staff who post on these forums would like stop being so automatically defensive.
 

Zoidberg

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... if I ever made a mistake or had an incident as a driver I wouldn't want my toc twitter account explaining all to the public before I've even had a chance to explain to the management myself!!

That is not what is being advocated.
 

CosherB

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The local authority is coming to close your road so you cant get in while they do some work right outside your house. Why should they tell you what they're doing? The road is closed after all and it makes no practical difference for you to know what they're doing; the road is closed, you cant get your car to your house.

What have you been smoking? :roll:

Completely different issue that bears no application to this scenario. The council does have an obligation, if it is planned work, to advise residents of such works to enable practcal measures to be taken. If it's an emergency, that's different.
 

TheEdge

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That is not what is being advocated.

Its exactly what you are advocating. Giving out any more than operational incident immediately requires telling all and sundry what has happened before the driver, guard or dispatcher gets the chance to actually explain officially.
 

Zoidberg

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Its exactly what you are advocating. Giving out any more than operational incident immediately requires telling all and sundry what has happened before the driver, guard or dispatcher gets the chance to actually explain officially.

I refer you to posts #30 and #40.
 

applepie2100

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I'm firmly in the court of more information needing to be provided. To simply state that the delay is down to an "operating incident" tells no-one anything useful at all.

If I'm delayed travelling to work I need to justify my lateness to my employer and to tell them that I've been delayed because of an "operating incident" usually goes down like a lead balloon. They want proper reasons, not the airy-fairy rubbish that very often passes for a delay reason.
 

causton

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"Operating incident" is too vague, but "SPAD" or any attempt to break that down into a passenger-friendly message is too detailed.

Not sure I've quite seen the perfect medium between the two yet...
 

TheEdge

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If I'm delayed travelling to work I need to justify my lateness to my employer and to tell them that I've been delayed because of an "operating incident" usually goes down like a lead balloon. They want proper reasons, not the airy-fairy rubbish that very often passes for a delay reason.

Okay, so the TOC tells you it was due to a signal passed at danger which you then tell your boss. Explain to me how that helps you or your boss? You are still late and are as late as you would have been had the TOC said operating incident.
 

applepie2100

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Okay, so the TOC tells you it was due to a signal passed at danger which you then tell your boss. Explain to me how that helps you or your boss? You are still late and are as late as you would have been had the TOC said operating incident.

Exactly as I've just explained. It makes it much easier for me to remain employed if I give an actual reason to my boss, rather than simply saying that there has been an "operating incident" or that the delay was down to "congestion". The former sounds like a rather made up reason and to be frank makes me look at bit stupid, whereas the later makes it clear the issue was the fault of the railway.

I'm not looking for the drivers name, shoe size etc but what I would like is an open and honest explanation for the delay. The railway is (or at least should be) run for the benefit of the travelling pubic and it's not unreasonable to expect them to be open and honest when something goes wrong.
 

Darandio

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Exactly as I've just explained. It makes it much easier for me to remain employed if I give an actual reason to my boss, rather than simply saying that there has been an "operating incident" or that the delay was down to "congestion". The former sounds like a rather made up reason and to be frank makes me look at bit stupid, whereas the later makes it clear the issue was the fault of the railway.

You are making stuff up now, surely? Potentially sacked because the railway didn't give you a good enough reason for your delay? Makes you look stupid? :lol:

Make one up then, or will your boss check? If so, then surely they can check your train, see that it was an 'operational incident' that is obviously out of your control and move on. Giving a better reason won't make you any earlier.
 

Chrisgr31

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Because some of us take an interest in what is being done to maintain, operate and - dare I say it - improve the infrastructure. Even if we can't use it, being involved in our public services helps our communities function better. Involving people in timetabling trains or buses will usually reveal something which can be improved for real-world use. Involving local businesses or charities in the commercial and public spaces of stations often helps them work better. Involving people in the explanations of how the service is actually running, in real time, may shock, concern or worry them if done wrong; but framed correctly (and I am not claiming that is easy!), it will build a picture of how seriously the frontline staff generally take what happens on the ground, let them query it, and let them understand that a delay may occur at the cost of their safety. Understanding that positive actions have to take place, even at the cost of punctuality, may sometimes fall on deaf ears. But for the majority of people, it will at least let them know that the specifics count, that the railway cares about accurately working out how to get round a problem, and that it can be discussed if necessary.

My own interest in the railways, indeed my career, came about largely from trying to understand more and more about how the railway operates, how it should & could operate, and what I can realistically do to help its passengers on their way. I do appreciate that some people have no interest whatsoever in how it all works, and more to the point I appreciate that very few people have any interest in standing at the end of a platform all day with a little notebook, or poring over Quail until 2am. But from what I can tell from discussing things with rather large numbers of people - thousands of passengers over the last few years - almost all prefer discussing how the railway works, as well as seeing it be more transparent, explaining the system and trying to make sense of media report or political spin versus reality. The railway is moaned about because the slightest thing which goes wrong can impact so much. Only by explaining how it works, and how it sometimes doesn't, can people be brought on side and it is the only way to start to get them to generate constructive (positive or negative) feedback to get public money and business strategies to the right places in the very long run.

In other words, passengers can and do actually care, if you discuss it constructively. Not all will. But if you hide things or don't explain the system, they will only care about demolishing it for you.

Exactly and it is of course important to many passengers to have an idea of how late they are going to be, whether it is to warn work, rearrange meetings, etc or whether its to arrange child care, lifts, meals etc when on the way home. There may also be an option of taking an alternative route and whether one does that or not will depend on the likely delay.
 

plastictaffy

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Unfortunately, Maps has stopped.
I personally wouldn't want my passengers to know my driver had made a mistake. A little while ago, my driver missed an AWS cancellation, (the signal was green and should have required no action) and we came to a screeching halt from 110mph on the up fast. The driver buzzed me up to admit what he'd done. He was absolutely mortified - to be fair listening to me wetting myself down the handset at him really didn't help.

I wouldn't have dreamed about telling the punters what had happened - it would be really unprofessional to do so. I instead told her the driver had received an 'all stop' message on his GSM-R. He was very grateful I said that rather than embarrass him. I personally think that although 'operational incident' doesn't tell you much, it's much better than saying 'the driver didn't see a red signal'.

Does it affect you? Is it going to alter your life in any way? No? Forget it then.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Exactly as I've just explained. It makes it much easier for me to remain employed if I give an actual reason to my boss, rather than simply saying that there has been an "operating incident" or that the delay was down to "congestion". The former sounds like a rather made up reason and to be frank makes me look at bit stupid, whereas the later makes it clear the issue was the fault of the railway.

I'm not looking for the drivers name, shoe size etc but what I would like is an open and honest explanation for the delay. The railway is (or at least should be) run for the benefit of the travelling pubic and it's not unreasonable to expect them to be open and honest when something goes wrong.

You, sir/madam, without putting too fine a point on it, are talking ****.

You want us to be open and honest?? Okay.
"I'm sorry we're late away from Euston ladies and gents, I've been gagging for a dump from Milton Keynes so had to go for a good unload before working this train......"
"Sorry we're late away from Birmingham New Street folks, the idiot signaller forgot we were waiting the road......."
"Sorry for the cancellation of the service, unfortunately the driver didn't set his alarm and we haven't been able to rouse him. Due to the fact that we operate with the bare minimum of traincrew, we don't have a spare driver anywhere this side of Beijing....."
"I'm sorry we're sitting here in the arse end of nowhere. The driver didn't sleep so well last night and just missed a red signal due to being tired. So we'll have to wait for a new driver. Due to the unique way Britain's railways are run, we're waiting for said driver to finish his break at the depot, wash his plate and cup up, have a pee and have a fag before dragging his slovenly arse into a taxi whereupon he'll be brought to the train by someone with a basic grasp of english and absolutley no idea where Bourne End Junction is......"

Get the picture?? We'd be lynched. Operational Incident/shortage of available traincrew/late running inbound service will continue to be used to good effect.
 
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LAX54

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I certainly would not want any announcement to be made which apportioned blame.

For the two examples you gave, something like "A safety mechanism brought the train to a halt and there will be a delay while the cause is investigated and any remedial action necessary is taken" or "A safety warning caused the driver to halt the train, etc" would be more helpful than "Operating incident".

Bit of a mouthful plus it could then worry some that the train was then unsafe ! 'Operational Incident' shorter, and covers it quite well :)
 

plastictaffy

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Unfortunately, Maps has stopped.
Bit of a mouthful plus it could then worry some that the train was then unsafe ! 'Operational Incident' shorter, and covers it quite well :)

A safety mechanism brought the train to a halt and there will be a delay while the cause is investigated and any remedial action necessary is taken

That means "someone cocked up and we've got to decide who is going to be shot tomorrow if it's applepie you're explaining the delay to.
 

TheEdge

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You want us to be open and honest?? Okay.
"I'm sorry we're late away from Euston ladies and gents, I've been gagging for a dump from Milton Keynes so had to go for a good unload before working this train......"

I've entirely changed my mind. This is the sort of announcement we need to be making.

"I apologise for the delay, I was too busy ripping the **** out of a colleague for his new haircut and failed to notice the time"
 

dviner

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I've entirely changed my mind. This is the sort of announcement we need to be making.

"I apologise for the delay, I was too busy ripping the **** out of a colleague for his new haircut and failed to notice the time"

"I apologise for the delay, but I had to describe - in significant detail - the reason for the previous delay to control so that they could pass this on to other customers - most of whom couldn't give a ****".
 

applepie2100

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You, sir/madam, without putting too fine a point on it, are talking ****.

Oh that point we will have to agree to disagree.

I think I've made my point so will withdraw from this discussion. I do find it rather disappointing however that a very small number of those involved in the day to day running of the railway appear to hold their passengers in such contempt and it does a great disservice to the vast majority who do their best to keep things going every day.
 
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Oh that point we will have to agree to disagree.

I think I've made my point so will withdraw from this discussion. I do find it rather disappointing however that a very small number of those involved in the day to day running of the railway appear to hold their passengers in such contempt and it does a great disservice to the vast majority who do their best to keep things going every day.

We don't hold you in contempt, but what you have to understand is that, by your mere membership of this forum you are not a normal passenger. Information that you expect and can digest would serve little purpose when explained to the majority of the travelling public.

I always try to tell the truth as best I can, but as others have said, most passengers will be much more comfortable in their journey if that emergency brake application was the driver "trying to avoid hitting a dog and needing to compose himself again" rather than the driver explaining to the signaller that TPWS activation and waiting for permission to continue.
 

plastictaffy

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Unfortunately, Maps has stopped.
Oh that point we will have to agree to disagree.

I think I've made my point so will withdraw from this discussion. I do find it rather disappointing however that a very small number of those involved in the day to day running of the railway appear to hold their passengers in such contempt and it does a great disservice to the vast majority who do their best to keep things going every day.

I don't hold my passengers in conptempt at all. Those that know how to run a railway just because they've been a passenger a few times however, are a different matter.:roll:

Not doing too bad at all as of late. Having been told I'm a disgrace to the union because I don't agree with another member's point of view, now I'm told that I a) hold my passengers in contempt, and b) do my colleagues a disservice. Get off your soapbox and step away from the keyboard. Come back when you have any clue about the work I and many others do every single day to get ungrateful oiks like you to work, accepting all the abuse given to us because the train is 4 seconds late through no fault of our own.
 

Skipness

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Some on board announcements I have heard in the last 12 months that have given passengers sufficient information to understand the reasons for a delay.
1. On an eastbound GWR HST at Teignmouth. "We have been held at signals to allow two trains from the opposite direction to pass the sea wall at Dawlish. Passengers standing the vestibules are advised to close the windows to avoid being soaked"
2. On a XC service north of Sheffield. " We apologise for the delay caused by following a late running freight train. However, once past Swinton we should have a clear run."
3. On an EMT service out of St Pancras following a much delayed Corby service. "We are sorry for the delay, but the train in front is a stopping service"

One announcement that was perhaps better not heard by passengers was the guard on a GWR service to Plymouth asking the driver if he was aware that he should have stopped at Devonport.
 
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