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Opinions on Class 80x trains vs HSTs?

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fgwrich

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Bear in mind the GWML is a much smoother track. I'm quite confident in saying it's the smoothest track on the entire network.
I have to disagree with that, particularly on the fast / main into Paddington. There certainly was a rough stretch between Maidenhead and Slough, and across Dolphin Junction. Though any modern stock rides roughly these days. For instance, as much as I love the Desiro’s, the SF5000 can be a rough one over pointwork as speed. The BT10 remains unbeatable in my opinion in that respect!
 
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Bletchleyite

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I have to disagree with that, particularly on the fast / main into Paddington. There certainly was a rough stretch between Maidenhead and Slough, and across Dolphin Junction. Though any modern stock rides roughly these days. For instance, as much as I love the Desiro’s, the SF5000 can be a rough one over pointwork as speed. The BT10 remains unbeatable in my opinion in that respect!

I would probably say the WCML fast lines are best. Desiros ride similarly to 80x with a fair bit of jolting on the slows, but at 110 on the fasts they are silky smooth, it is like being in Germany. Almost no movement at all.
 

O L Leigh

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Oh, are we doing this again? IETs - Awfully bright headlights, no...?

Last year I had a trip from Oxford into town on an IET of some stripe and found it not unpleasant. From reading this forum I'd been expecting it to shake, rattle and roll, for it to cause my ears to bleed and my spine to crumble and to depart the train with a yearning for something older and more clapped-out. As it turned out, I found the trip to be very pleasant. The seat was comfy, the train rode well, the engine noise was, while noticeable, not intrusive (I couldn't quite tell where the traction changeover happened even though I know from signing the route where it should) and the ambience was quite good. I even rated the loos, which are a LOT nicer than on most other trains (although my only quibble was, being tall, I found the handwash basin a bit low and ended up putting rather a lot of water on the floor in the process of washing and drying my hands). There was no bogie shake, no harsh lighting (something that, as a migraine sufferer, I am sensitive to) and nothing else really to object to.

As for comparisons with HSTs, well I would say that the IET was heaps better. I don't dislike the Mk3 coach but I simply don't understand the strength of feeling for them. The IC70s were always the bane of any journey (and still are if I'm travelling on Chiltern) and the whole coach body could roll alarmingly. HSTs also do not seem capable of getting away smoothly but tend to lurch forward with much creaking from the gangways.

I have a colleague who travelled from London to Bristol via Leeds (or maybe it was York) specifically so that he didn't have to travel on an IET. To me this surely is the definition of madness. I wouldn't refuse to get on either train if it happened to be what was operating my service and would make the best of it. I can understand the nostalgia for the old buses and will feel the same way when some other types finally disappear, but I can also understand that time doesn't stand still. No doubt somewhere out there is someone still fulminating about the loss of Deltics/Western hydraulics and still considers the HST to be the devil's work (although presumably this person isn't on the interweb). HSTs are clearly tied to a lot of fond memories for a lot of people, myself included. But to me a train is a train is a train, so unfortunately I cannot really join in with this HST love-in.

Sorry.
 

Ashley Hill

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IETs are passible but fall way behind the HST in many respects. IET seats are very uncomfortable and a lot are getting a slight bulge making them worse. First class is crap compared to HST. Catering is P**s poor and infrequent. The ride is hard and the normal toilets are too small and luggage space is farcical.
 

MattRat

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I have to disagree with that, particularly on the fast / main into Paddington. There certainly was a rough stretch between Maidenhead and Slough, and across Dolphin Junction. Though any modern stock rides roughly these days. For instance, as much as I love the Desiro’s, the SF5000 can be a rough one over pointwork as speed. The BT10 remains unbeatable in my opinion in that respect!
Well it's either that or the HST I rode on before the 80x came about (around 2017) rode smoothly, and according to another post that can't be true so now I'm confused.
 

samulih

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never ridden them but i think the reason for removal of HST has everything to do with something else than ride feel, like maintenance, nature and such. What modern trains I have ridden, no complaints from me, I got sore butt from everything.
 

Swanley 59

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Are all 80x trains equal? The LNER Azuma 801 trains I use regularly are a definite step up on the HST, the Transpennine 802 trains not so much.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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They're exactly the same bar the colour scheme and the presence/absence of a buffet.
I must say I think it can make a huge difference, though. I find the LNER Azumas to have a more superior interior due to the warming red palette and softer-feeling moquette on the seats, compared to the gaudy lime green and dull blue with astroturf or flat cloth on GWR & TPE, respectively. The buffet is also a nice touch, and I rather like the leather headrests being rolled out rather rapidly now across the Azuma fleet. All they need now is a touch more of a classy fake wood effect (I know you share my opinion on fake wood panels) and a softer lighting.
 

222001

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It's amazing the difference the interior colour scheme and choice of seat materials can make. I don't mind travelling on an LNER 800/801, but I find the GWR 800/802s rather depressing.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's amazing the difference the interior colour scheme and choice of seat materials can make. I don't mind travelling on an LNER 800/801, but I find the GWR 800/802s rather depressing.

Yes, they have all the charisma of a 1990s bus with the lime green and grey, don't they? The deep green used on the Electrostars would have been much better.

The LNER interior scheme I do quite like, but I like the more understated TPE blue as well.
 

jfollows

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"plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"
The more things change, the more they remain the same.
I remember cycling Bristol-Land's End-Exeter in summer 1979, looking to cover some of the Cornish branches (we managed Falmouth and Looe anyway) and to avoid the dreadful new HSTs and instead see 50s and nice Mark 2 stock.
I lived in Bath 1994-95, during which time I used HSTs a lot of course, including a month's first class season ticket to London (paid for by my employer because I was on a one-off contract at M&S Stockley Park).
Since then I've only used the IETs twice (first class) London-Reading and Bath-Bristol so I haven't got the basis of a fair comparison.
For me, the worst thing by far has nothing to do with the seats or lack of buffet but the idea that 2x5-car units on a single train is acceptable, I want a train, not two trains somehow attached and somehow separate.
I also think that the idea of bi-mode is silly, but that's a long-lost argument, I'd have preferred locomotives and stock with engine changes and don't believe that was impractical. But that's not the argument here.
I expect when I use the IETs more I'll tolerate them, in the same way I grew to tolerate HSTs in the past!
 
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Bletchleyite

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The LNER colour scheme is more agreeable to my eyes, certainly. I guess I'm probably imagining that the 801s ride better than the 802s, at least on the ECML north of Newcastle.

It's vaguely possible that the electric-only units ride better than the diesel ones, but I doubt it, typically heavier = better ride.
 

fgwrich

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Since then I've only used the IETs (first class) London-Reading and Bath-Bristol so I haven't got the basis of a fair comparison.
For me, the worst thing by far has nothing to do with the seats or lack of buffet but the idea that 2x5-car units on a single train is acceptable, I want a train, not two trains somehow attached and somehow separate.

This remains one of the more irritating aspects of the IEP program, this belief that because 2x5 can work to and split at Bournemouth on the Southern, it can work everywhere else across the network. It doesn’t. I don’t deny that shorter trains for some areas of the network are needed, but far, far too many shorter 5 car sets were ordered than 9 car. Perhaps this is where MML got things right with a mix of 5 and 7 car sets.
 

darwins

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From a passenger point of view, I find the 80x seats less comfortable than seats in Mk3s and it seems even harder to find one near a window. Although it is good to see the back of the GWR HSTs which were ruined when they squeezed extra seats in every coach and totally removed the leg room. Probably the most comfortable seats around in UK today are those on the voyagers. Sadly those seats are in need of re-upholstery and the ride quality is spoiled by the now ageing underfloor diesel engines. (Same will happen to IEP on diesel as it gets older.)

From a technical point of view, replacing Mk4s with IEP seems like a step backwards. Fully streamlined vehicles, designed to run up to 225km/h, and with bogies that gave excellent service on British track, have been replaced by what is essentially a Japanese metre gauge LEx design uprated from 160km/h to 200km/h, vehicles that lack plug doors and streamlined underframe and roof, plus bogies that have already given problems. Unfortunately the British interiors are less pleasant than the Japanese ones were. I rode a few years ago on a service branded as "Sonic" in Kyushu and found the interior very pleasant. Mk 4s of course could always have had the class 91 swapped for a diesel to go off the wires (DVT stop boards were placed at Harrogate and possibly other places ready for this). They were also profiled to be able to tilt if that was required.

The whole bi-mode thing at the moment seems like a government ploy to continue to avoid investment in electrification.

In terms of interior, Mk 2 coaches with windows aligned with seats and plenty of tables were a better experience. Dump toilets, awkward entrance vestibules and lack of disabled facilities date them!

The prize for the best ever interior for a regular train must go to Denmark though. The IC3 trains and their derivates like IR4 are actually both beautiful and comfortable inside. The Danes also seem to have beaten is in changing from an almost all diesel railway system to an almost all electric railway system.
 

MattRat

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It's vaguely possible that the electric-only units ride better than the diesel ones, but I doubt it, typically heavier = better ride.
Might also be the track. People often miss the fact bad track can make any unit feel bad, and just blame the unit. The opposite is also true.
 

XAM2175

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The prize for the best ever interior for a regular train must go to Denmark though. The IC3 trains and their derivates like IR4 are actually both beautiful and comfortable inside. The Danes also seem to have beaten is in changing from an almost all diesel railway system to an almost all electric railway system.
I agree that the IC3s have excellent interiors, but I'd hesitate to claim that Danish electrification program has been successful! Without going too far off topic, they still have a vast amount diesel running under the wires and they've painted themselves into a messy corner at the moment on a number of lines which have been wired but not energised because the signalling immunisation hasn't been done, but the immunisation can't be done right now because the current signalling system is obsolescent and the ETCS conversion program is delayed.
 

Irascible

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It's vaguely possible that the electric-only units ride better than the diesel ones, but I doubt it, typically heavier = better ride.

Unless it's hitting the suspension limits, anyway. Heavier will mean less body movement ( vertically at least ) but possibly more thumping.

Might also be the track. People often miss the fact bad track can make any unit feel bad, and just blame the unit. The opposite is also true.

This too, the B&H is not quite the GWML...
 

class377fcc12

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From a technical point of view, replacing Mk4s with IEP seems like a step backwards. Fully streamlined vehicles, designed to run up to 225km/h, and with bogies that gave excellent service on British track, have been replaced by what is essentially a Japanese metre gauge LEx design uprated from 160km/h to 200km/h, vehicles that lack plug doors and streamlined underframe and roof, plus bogies that have already given problems.
AT300 is designed to and has run at (and beyond) 140mph, streamlining of components and sliding pocket doors aren't an issue at the speed required and the bogies haven't given any problems? Mk4s were hated for their ride quality when introduced and personally I don't find them overly special now, certainly no better or worse than an AT300.

Personally I still find the ride on at least GWR's AT300s very variable, with little correlation to unit age. Some units ride well enough, while others can be a bit firm, but I'm yet to come across any that are objectively bad. Obviously not over the same stretches of track, but I'd say the majority of IETs ride better than a GA FLIRT when sat over the shared bogie, but people seem to love those despite being really quite average.
 

Bletchleyite

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AT300 is designed to and has run at (and beyond) 140mph, streamlining of components and sliding pocket doors aren't an issue at the speed required and the bogies haven't given any problems? Mk4s were hated for their ride quality when introduced and personally I don't find them overly special now, certainly no better or worse than an AT300.

Other than Pacers, the Mk4 is the only UK stock that can ride so badly that on one occasion I had already got to "if this movement goes on much longer I'm going to conclude we have derailed and pull the handle". Yes, that bad. Quite scary.
 

irish_rail

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This remains one of the more irritating aspects of the IEP program, this belief that because 2x5 can work to and split at Bournemouth on the Southern, it can work everywhere else across the network. It doesn’t. I don’t deny that shorter trains for some areas of the network are needed, but far, far too many shorter 5 car sets were ordered than 9 car. Perhaps this is where MML got things right with a mix of 5 and 7 car sets.
I am glad the consensus of thinking has gone this way, that basically the 5 car sets running as 10s was a big mistake on the whole.
Since the wofe route got alot more 9 car trains the reliability and resilience through Plymouth has improved massively, though I'm led to believe we are going backwards to lots more 10 car trains come May instead of 9s, and this is already starting to happen now.
Just the other day, I was reminded what a poor system it is when it took 7 minutes to complete the coupling up process at Plymouth, and then there where problems with the 2 attached sets that caused further delay. It just isn't worth the hassle.
For me, the 9 car IETs are OK, the LNER and TPE stuff is much nicer, but the 5 car GWR sets are the worst of the IET family. Patilcularly dislike the first class provision of "half" carriages, and the way it is split into two parts of the train.
For me, many of the 5 cars should be ousted to XC and some new build 9 cars built for GWR , wishful thinking however!
 

Devonian

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For me, HSTs were much better trains than might be expected given the expectation that the APT would become the top-tier train: the 80Xs are a missed opportunity to create really good top-tier trains. HSTs are full of carefully thought out design details, while the 80Xs seem to be a bit of a bodge.

Everywhere you look on an HST/Mk3 you can see that a lot of care has been taken to make the best possible intercity train of its time. The heating grilles merge seamlessly with the wall and floor; the (dimmable) lighting, ventilation and loudspeaker fittings are flush-fitted into a ceiling that curves flawlessly down to the walls without compromising space in the luggage racks; the gangway connections are flat and wide; the window surrounds are curvaceous and smooth; the seats and tables are fitted to tracks that allow endless flexibility without being obvious; the lavatory compartments are cast without tight corners for dirt to lodge in and lit with daylight; the saloon doors disappear like magic into the wall as you approach them; having the internal doors offset allows them to align with both 2+2 and 1+2 seating, and allows larger lavatories. The seats were, by the standards of the time, excellent. Everything seems to have been designed with two thoughts in mind: how can we make this more standardised/flexible/economical to build; and how can we make it better for passsengers? Those two factors ensured its lasting success.

By contrast, the 80Xs lack the same level of thought. They are full of economical standardised components, but without flair. The heating grilles take up valuable foot room and the extra seat legs take up even more; there is bulky trunking under the window; the internal doors are specific to 1+1 or 2+2 making conversion more difficult if ever needed; the gangway connections are lumpy; the saloon doors crawl open. The interiors would be good for a regional train: they are rather poor for an intercity service. In fact. I'd put the interiors on a par with the 158s (which have more comfortable seats).

There are odd design choices too: having the accessible WC and wheelchair space in the same carriage as the kitchen makes the seating area in that carriage ridiculously small, when it could have been laid out in the style of the Mk3 restaurant/buffets if the next carriage had contained the accessible equipment. Why don't the luggage racks make use of the full height of the carriage? Why are there seats rather than luggage racks beside blank walls? Could there really not have been room for more bikes (and surfboards) at a time when green travel is being heavily pushed? If LNER - and even Greater Anglia - could have buffets, why no fixed catering point for GWR?

I find some of the excuses that get trotted out for the 80Xs unbelievable. It is demonstrably untrue that "only one type of seat met the regulations" when two different types of seats are in use on the train: the first class seats are only as good as standard class ought to have been (the manufacturers even offer a standard class version); and there are now at least two alternative types of seats showing that, with a little bit of will, better seats could have been used. And the "lighting regulations" do allow dimmer general lighting - as long as reading lights are also installed. That the trains have cheap seats sold by the manufacturer for 'regional' services and over-bright lighting can only be down to cost - despite the trains being extraordinarily expensive over the life of the lease.

For me, many of the 5 cars should be ousted to XC and some new build 9 cars built for GWR , wishful thinking however!
I share that wishful thinking: assign 5-car sets to the regional services or send them to operators looking for new 5-car stock, extend any remainder or order full-length trains with revised interiors properly designed for long-distance intercity services to replace them. With a bit of polish, the IETs could be the train that I hoped they would be when they were first proposed.

The 80Xs have the potential to be excellent trains: at present, they are only good. They are not yet as good as the HSTs they replaced.
 

Bletchleyite

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Everywhere you look on an HST/Mk3 you can see that a lot of care has been taken to make the best possible intercity train of its time.

Really?

How's about these?
  • The worst seat design (IC70) I have ever experienced. Thick backs, plastic cover that shattered in an accident (which is why they've almost all been ditched; I suspect Chiltern have only been allowed to keep them due to their all-table layout meaning in a collision nobody would hit the back of one), table too low so people with long lower legs can't use it, pointy table supports where your knees go, fixed armrests making access difficult and forcing your legs forward into the back of the other seat, unsupportive shape. Just truly awful. I'm no fan of the Sophia, but I'd take it over those. Of course you might say seats are irrelevant as they can be changed, but they can be changed on 80x as well - FirstGroup have now funded certification of a different seat for Avanti and Lumo which pretty much everyone says is better (not tried one myself yet).
  • Stark, overbright, underdiffused lighting, so bad I used to misbehave a bit and stick it to "dim" whenever I boarded one. This was replaced in most refurbs, and only the FGW daylight abominations were worse. Like sticking a load of seats in a 1970's semi's kitchen, with the horrid colour scheme to go with it (remember the nice blue and green was a 1990s refurb).
  • Slamdoors, when sliding and plug doors were well established in other countries by then, or at least the UIC folding slamdoor could have been used. People actually died because of this idiotic "not invented here" decision, not to mention countless delay minutes.
  • Window sills too high up due to a totally false view that seeing sleepers pass would make people ill.
  • Stinking brake fumes every time they slowed down due to a foolish decision to put the air intake too close to the bogies.
  • Poor ride with a distinctive sway, and an almighty bang with visible bodyside distortion whenever passing another train.
  • No pressure sealing, so uncomfortable on the ears in a tunnel.
  • Unreliable aircon (though admittedly part of this was because of the move away from CFCs which also afflicted 158s).
I really don't get the rose-tinted spectacles over Mk3s, they are really quite poor. The main redeeming feature they have is that they're not Mk4s, which really are cheap tat (albeit cheap tat which has had a nice interior retrofitted; the as built interior was also cheap tat, being like a downgraded Class 158 with horrid plastic seats and a colour scheme that made the GWR 80x look bright and friendly).

The Class 442, or even better the BREL International, were what the Mk3 should have been, but even those would now be quite dated.

Mine's an 80x any day. Not saying you couldn't improve on the 80x - you could - low floor would be a start. But the Mk3 today is like the Boeing 737 - an ancient design that keeps being rehashed and really needs the bin.
 

hexagon789

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Everywhere you look on an HST/Mk3 you can see that a lot of care has been taken to make the best possible intercity train of its time. The heating grilles merge seamlessly with the wall and floor; the (dimmable) lighting, ventilation and loudspeaker fittings are flush-fitted into a ceiling that curves flawlessly down to the walls without compromising space in the luggage racks; the gangway connections are flat and wide; the window surrounds are curvaceous and smooth; the seats and tables are fitted to tracks that allow endless flexibility without being obvious; the lavatory compartments are cast without tight corners for dirt to lodge in and lit with daylight; the saloon doors disappear like magic into the wall as you approach them; having the internal doors offset allows them to align with both 2+2 and 1+2 seating, and allows larger lavatories. The seats were, by the standards of the time, excellent. Everything seems to have been designed with two thoughts in mind: how can we make this more standardised/flexible/economical to build; and how can we make it better for passsengers? Those two factors ensured its lasting success.
Yet at the time and for many years afterwards, staff on the LMR considered the Mk2F stock was the best particularly the Open Firsts were felt to be superior to the Mk3A stock and only surpassed with the 3B.


Poor ride with a distinctive sway.
It's intriguing you always broach thos point, because the data suggests nothing surpasses a BT10 not even the 158 T4 at 125mph. At least in terms of lateral ride index. Though I suspect they do need the original design of dampers otherwise you do get that wallowiness as per GNER/NXEC/EC/VTEC/LNER.

I'm sure even Roger Ford made a similar point when the 800s first appeared and their ride quality was being slated.
 

Bletchleyite

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Yet at the time and for many years afterwards, staff on the LMR considered the Mk2F stock was the best particularly the Open Firsts were felt to be superior to the Mk3A stock and only surpassed with the 3B.

The 3B fixes some of the problems with the original, but only a few. Most still remain. The most notable fix is the lighting which is similar to the 442.

It's intriguing you always broach thos point, because the data suggests nothing surpasses a BT10 not even the 158 T4 at 125mph. At least in terms of lateral ride index. Though I suspect they do need the original design of dampers otherwise you do get that wallowiness as per GNER/NXEC/EC/VTEC/LNER.

You can call it what you like - "wallowiness" might be it - I just call it a bad ride. I can give you a long list of trains that ride better, starting with the silky-smooth 221.

I'm sure even Roger Ford made a similar point when the 800s first appeared and their ride quality was being slated.

The 80x is a different type of slightly rough, more like the Desiro - a slightly harsher but less swaying joltiness which I personally prefer over the Mk3's "wallowiness" as you put it. TBH, if I closed my eyes and ignored the seat's supporting bar pushing into my underthigh, I'd think I was on a 350, it is so similar. But nothing (bar a Pacer) surpasses the piece of cheap junk that is the Mk4. Never before have I encountered a ride so bad I was genuinely starting to think a bogie had come off. At least they fixed the lighting and fitted power doors, but other than that they really are designed down to a price.
 

XAM2175

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Everywhere you look on an HST/Mk3 you can see that a lot of care has been taken to make the best possible intercity train of its time.
Slamdoors, when sliding and plug doors were well established in other countries by then, or at least the UIC folding slamdoor could have been used. People actually died because of this idiotic "not invented here" decision, not to mention countless delay minutes.
Yes, the doors alone are enough for me to reject completely the assertion that Mk 3s even attempted to be the "best possible intercity train of its time".

But nothing (bar a Pacer) surpasses the piece of cheap junk that is the Mk4. Never before have I encountered a ride so bad I was genuinely starting to think a bogie had come off. At least they fixed the lighting and fitted power doors, but other than that they really are designed down to a price.
I've never found the Mk 4's ride to be particularly bad, but I grant that that could be down to my being used to Australian track :p
 
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