Options for the proposed Birmingham Moor Street to Oxford service

[Bletchleyite]

Also Birmingham Moor Street-Oxford Service. Wondered which toc will be interested in that

There are 3 TOCs which could theoretically operate it - GWR, WMT or Chiltern.

Options would I guess be:
- Extend the GWR Didcot-Banbury (roughly 0.5tph at present) back to Moor St
- Extend the hourly WMT Dorridge terminator to Oxford, with GWR operating a shuttle Oxford-Didcot only, or all the way to Didcot
- Entirely new service in addition to what runs now which could be any of the three but less likely to be GWR

It wouldn't I suspect be via Bicester as that would require a reversal.

 

[The Planner]

It will be the third one direct to Oxford.

 

[SynthD]

I've only ever seen it linked to Chiltern in any official documents.

 

[A0wen]

There are 3 TOCs which could theoretically operate it - GWR, WMT or Chiltern.

Options would I guess be:
- Extend the GWR Didcot-Banbury (roughly 0.5tph at present) back to Moor St
- Extend the hourly WMT Dorridge terminator to Oxford, with GWR operating a shuttle Oxford-Didcot only, or all the way to Didcot
- Entirely new service in addition to what runs now which could be any of the three but less likely to be GWR

It wouldn't I suspect be via Bicester as that would require a reversal.

If it was WMR it could be part of a wider re-cast of the timetable on the Snow Hill lines.

Currently there are 2tph Kidderminster - Stratford with a mixed stopping pattern south of Moor Street.

1 tph Worcester - Whitlocks End.

1 tph Worcester - Dorridge.

You could extend the Whitlocks End service onto Stratford and remove 1 of the 2 tph from Kidderminster - that way it keeps 2 tph from Stratford - Birmingham.

From there it might make some sense to have 1 tph to Leamington (stopper) and 1 tph to Oxford (semi-fast).

On GWR, do they have sufficient DMUs in the Reading area now since electrification ?

Agree not Bicester, not least because there isn't a North - West curve and the reversal looks a nightmare, you'd have to leave Bicester North on the 'up' Marylebone line to the junction, then reverse there, but you'd be on the 'wrong' line until just before Bicester Village.

 

[TH172341]

Be good if this was done. Another way to do this could be extending the existing two hourly Moor Street to Leamington Chiltern service on to Oxford.

 

[david1212]

However implimented e.g. an extension of an existing service or new Chiltern is the logical operator as the only new track to learn is Aynho Junction to just outside Oxford station.
GWR would have to learn Banbury - Birmingham and WMR Leamington Spa - Oxford, or would it be Dorridge - Oxford ?

 

[O L Leigh]

What's the advantage compared to the existing service from New Street? (Looking for answers to the question as posed, not opening an invitation for another round of XC bashing.)

 

[ABB125]

What's the advantage compared to the existing service from New Street? (Looking for answers to the question as posed, not opening an invitation for another round of XC bashing.)

I imagine it's for ease of connection with HS2

 

[O L Leigh]

I imagine it's for ease of connection with HS2

Are people really going to be going to Brum on HS2 and then to Oxford from there...?

The idea of a Moor St/Snow Hill to Oxford service sounds to me more like an idea looking for a justification rather than an attempt to address a specific need.

 

[The Planner]

What's the advantage compared to the existing service from New Street? (Looking for answers to the question as posed, not opening an invitation for another round of XC bashing.)

It would be over and above the existing capacity using the existing Reading Newcastle path that isn't there post HS2 from Leamington Spa. More than likely stopping at Dorridge, Solihull, Warwick etc so connectivity.

 

[ABB125]

Are people really going to be going to Brum on HS2 and then to Oxford from there...?

Not from London (I would hope!), but maybe from Manchester...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not from London (I would hope!), but maybe from Manchester...

I don't know about HS2, but it does look like it'd help relieve one of the busier parts of CrossCountry by taking more of the local journeys off it onto a genuine local service.

 

[O L Leigh]

I suppose this all hinges on the traffic flow from outlying stations along that route into Oxford. I'm unsure how many passengers are changing at, say, Banbury or Leamington Spa for Warwick, Solihull or Dorridge. All the major population centres seem adequately covered and these are the only other locations along that route that I could see benefitting from such a move (the local stations between Oxford and Banbury are already served by direct GWR services). Perhaps stopping a few more services at Warwick Parkway would help with this.

I don't know about HS2, but it does look like it'd help relieve one of the busier parts of CrossCountry by taking more of the local journeys off it onto a genuine local service.

My experience of commuters is that they generally target the faster services as a way of increasing their chances of getting a seat. I'm unsure that supplementing a local service (removing the change of trains) would provide much of a relief for XC.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My experience of commuters is that they generally target the faster services as a way of increasing their chances of getting a seat. I'm unsure that supplementing a local service (removing the change of trains) would provide much of a relief for XC.

My experience of commuting is that slower services give more chance of a seat because you board nearer the origin. In what way would boarding a service starting at Birmingham Moor St at Birmingham Moor St not give more chance of a seat than boarding an XC service at New St that's come from Manchester or Newcastle?

 

[O L Leigh]

My experience of commuting is that slower services give more chance of a seat because you board nearer the origin. In what way would boarding a service starting at Birmingham Moor St at Birmingham Moor St not give more chance of a seat than boarding an XC service at New St that's come from Manchester or Newcastle?

Then our experiences differ. It appears to me that a significant number of commuters prefer to catch the faster trains and get there more quickly.

Perhaps I didn't phrase what I specifically meant very well. I was thinking specifically of the commuters I used to pick up at Tottenham Hale and then travel along the Hertford East branch. All trains coming out of Liv St were equally busy, but they'd still catch the Cambridge service to Broxbourne and then change for the following slow service. They didn't get home any quicker (if anything, their total journey time was longer), so I cannot imagine what other advantage such a strategy would confer except having a better chance of a seat.

 

[cle]

I always understood this as Chiltern, out of the bays. Didn't they used to operate some witching hour services from Banbury or Stratford to Oxford? So it may well be signed / learned - if not expired. Who knows.

To me it makes sense, the long distance traffic should go via Coventry (and if could be pathed, a second tph should go that way) - but Oxford is a regional centre and I could see a < Oxford - Banbury - Leamington - Warwick+/Parkway - Dorridge - Solihull - Moor St > service, priced at a regional/commuter level, vs IC structure - being very popular and useful both ways. Possibly an Oxford - Stratford a few times a day too.

And then maybe XC could run fast from Oxford to Coventry on one hourly service, if a second returned.

 

[The Planner]

Bear in mind that if the Bordesley chords are built then more regional trains end up at Moor St.

 

[zwk500]

However implimented e.g. an extension of an existing service or new Chiltern is the logical operator as the only new track to learn is Aynho Junction to just outside Oxford station.
GWR would have to learn Banbury - Birmingham and WMR Leamington Spa - Oxford, or would it be Dorridge - Oxford ?

Chiltern already sign Oxford-Banbury direct, they have ECS moves to/from Banbury depot. They might need more drivers, but it's not new track.

The idea of a Moor St/Snow Hill to Oxford service sounds to me more like an idea looking for a justification rather than an attempt to address a specific need.

Probably a good way of increasing outer commuter capacity into Birmingham. Oxford is just a sensible place to run to.

Bear in mind that if the Bordesley chords are built then more regional trains end up at Moor St.

How big an 'if' is that at the moment?

 

[tomuk]

Then our experiences differ. It appears to me that a significant number of commuters prefer to catch the faster trains and get there more quickly.

Well ticket validity needs to be looked at. If commuters are served by a sufficent local service then they shouldn't be allowed to overcrowd the IC/IR. Of course on most routes in the UK we just mix all the passenger flows together.

 

[Stephen Lee]

I've only ever seen it linked to Chiltern in any official documents.

link???

 

[The Planner]

Chiltern already sign Oxford-Banbury direct, they have ECS moves to/from Banbury depot. They might need more drivers, but it's not new track.

Probably a good way of increasing outer commuter capacity into Birmingham. Oxford is just a sensible place to run to.


How big an 'if' is that at the moment?

One chord is a bigger if than the other...

 

[JamesT]

I suppose this all hinges on the traffic flow from outlying stations along that route into Oxford. I'm unsure how many passengers are changing at, say, Banbury or Leamington Spa for Warwick, Solihull or Dorridge. All the major population centres seem adequately covered and these are the only other locations along that route that I could see benefitting from such a move (the local stations between Oxford and Banbury are already served by direct GWR services). Perhaps stopping a few more services at Warwick Parkway would help with this.

It's not the greatest of services from GWR, a train every 90 minutes to the intermediate stations. For Kings Sutton, a journey planner often seems to suggest going to Banbury on XC then doubling back with Chiltern or GWR.

My experience of commuters is that they generally target the faster services as a way of increasing their chances of getting a seat. I'm unsure that supplementing a local service (removing the change of trains) would provide much of a relief for XC.

For Oxford, it's mostly just a general need for more trains heading North. Reinstating XCs second service in the hour would be a good start, though presumably would come at the price of reverting the current double sets back to singles. Birmingham offers connectivity to a wider set of destinations without having to go in the wrong direction first to London.

 

[cle]

Bear in mind that if the Bordesley chords are built then more regional trains end up at Moor St.

But this could presumably start much sooner, and would be long bedded in by then.

Aren't there also plans for an extra bay or two at Moor St also?

 

[The Planner]

But this could presumably start much sooner, and would be long bedded in by then.

Aren't there also plans for an extra bay or two at Moor St also?

Yes, three extra platforms I believe. Extra bay and two new bays on the up side, but they may be dependant on the east chord.

 

[ABB125]

Yes, three extra platforms I believe. Extra bay and two new bays on the up side, but they may be dependant on the east chord.

Three extra bays at BMO? Interesting, the most I've previously seen is two ("plug in" the one which was built but never finished last time it was rebuilt, plus another, with differing opinions as to which side it should go on!).
Which is the up side? Bull Ring or Curzon Street?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Three extra bays at BMO? Interesting, the most I've previously seen is two ("plug in" the one which was built but never finished last time it was rebuilt, plus another, with differing opinions as to which side it should go on!).
Which is the up side? Bull Ring or Curzon Street?

Up is always towards London where it would be relevant, so that'll be the Curzon St side.

 

[zwk500]

Three extra bays at BMO? Interesting, the most I've previously seen is two ("plug in" the one which was built but never finished last time it was rebuilt, plus another, with differing opinions as to which side it should go on!).
Which is the up side? Bull Ring or Curzon Street?

Up side is north/east of the station (Up towards Paddington). 1 extra bay next to existing bays, platform edge is actually in situ, 2 new bays on other side of the through platforms (to the left as you face the ticket barrier from the entrance).

Up is always towards London where it would be relevant, so that'll be the Curzon St side.

Beware the former GCR! But in this instance it's former GWR territory, so yes, Paddington on top of all else.

 

[ABB125]

Up side is north/east of the station (Up towards Paddington). 1 extra bay next to existing bays, platform edge is actually in situ, 2 new bays on other side of the through platforms (to the left as you face the ticket barrier from the entrance).

Will that not be inconvenient from both an operational and passenger perspective, splitting the bays either side of the through platforms? I appreciate the plans for the Bordesley Chord(s) may have changed since I last looked (probably not publicly available though), but I thought both chords (if built!) were going to come down on the down (west) side of the existing tracks in order to be separated from the through lines (though obviously there would be connections), effectively giving two stations: through platforms for Snow Hill stuff, and bays for trains coming from the chord(s) (plus Chiltern?). If some of the bays are on the other side and the chord plans are the same, trains reaching the east-side bays will need to cross both through lines, causing capacity issues.
Or, perhaps more likely, the chord designs have been changed so that the west chord is still the same as before and will have a pair of tracks to the west of the existing ones, and the esat chord (if it happens) will join the existing tracks. Not necessarily as good from an operational perspective?

 

[zwk500]

Will that not be inconvenient from both an operational and passenger perspective, splitting the bays either side of the through platforms? I appreciate the plans for the Bordesley Chord(s) may have changed since I last looked (probably not publicly available though), but I thought both chords (if built!) were going to come down on the down (west) side of the existing tracks in order to be separated from the through lines (though obviously there would be connections), effectively giving two stations: through platforms for Snow Hill stuff, and bays for trains coming from the chord(s) (plus Chiltern?). If some of the bays are on the other side and the chord plans are the same, trains reaching the east-side bays will need to cross both through lines, causing capacity issues.
Or, perhaps more likely, the chord designs have been changed so that the west chord is still the same as before and will have a pair of tracks to the west of the existing ones, and the esat chord (if it happens) will join the existing tracks. Not necessarily as good from an operational perspective?

It is less convenient, but the loss of operational convenience is better overall than not being able to build the platforms at all. The bays can only go where there is land for them. And splitting either side is manageable, if you pick the right gaps. A departure from the current bays is as disruptive as a departure from the new bays will be.

 

[O L Leigh]

Probably a good way of increasing outer commuter capacity into Birmingham. Oxford is just a sensible place to run to.

Quite possibly. But I maintain that it would be better to look at this properly to identify where the need exists and then provide the services that meet that need.

To me it makes sense, the long distance traffic should go via Coventry (and if could be pathed, a second tph should go that way) - but Oxford is a regional centre and I could see a < Oxford - Banbury - Leamington - Warwick+/Parkway - Dorridge - Solihull - Moor St > service, priced at a regional/commuter level, vs IC structure - being very popular and useful both ways. Possibly an Oxford - Stratford a few times a day too.

And then maybe XC could run fast from Oxford to Coventry on one hourly service, if a second returned.

XC via Coventry is vulnerable to delays and is already a significant issue. If you were going to run the second hourly service that way, it might as well make all the stops as it won't be any faster even if it only stopped at Coventry. Also, it's worth noting that running a fast/semi-fast service on a 2tph frequency would reduce XC's capacity along sections of the route, in which case you'd definitely need something extra making the trip to make up for the lost seats. 2tph via Cov would also depend on whether the second hourly path even exists along that section or whether that is currently used by LNR/Avanti. It's also going to require an additional path along the single line through Kenilworth. Granted there's not many passenger services through Kenilworth, but there's a decent amount of freight going that way.

Someone else more familiar with Chiltern's operations will need to address the feasibility of the rest of your plan. However, I do like your idea of an all-shacks Stratford to Oxford service. Your mooted Oxford-Brum calling pattern wouldn't actually add much between Oxford and Leamington Spa if taken together with your idea for changes to the XC service, as you'd still only have a 2tph service using single sets calling at principle stations, which is precisely what XC were doing pre-covid.

It's not the greatest of services from GWR, a train every 90 minutes to the intermediate stations. For Kings Sutton, a journey planner often seems to suggest going to Banbury on XC then doubling back with Chiltern or GWR.

Yes, I'm aware. Clearly the greatest demand from Kings Sutton is towards Bicester/London

For Oxford, it's mostly just a general need for more trains heading North. Reinstating XCs second service in the hour would be a good start, though presumably would come at the price of reverting the current double sets back to singles. Birmingham offers connectivity to a wider set of destinations without having to go in the wrong direction first to London.

How many of the London trains terminate at Oxford? I appreciate that some continue along the Cotswolds line, but I know that some terminate and shunt into the Down Sidings before returning to London. Would it not be a better option to extend a few of these to Banbury? There's also more than just a few of the Didcots that terminate at Oxford which could be extended.