Ordinary passengers using Heritage Railways as normal transport?

[paul1609]

With Heritage Railway fares, I believe that there may be the matter that as use is considered as leisure, they are subject to VAT.

Very complex subject but basically if you run from one station to another and issue walk up fares they aren't. If you run a Thomas the Tank day they are an attraction and are.
Challenged by HMRC in the courts several times but they lost.

 

[edwin_m]

Running a service as part of the national network might involve heritage railways having to fit AWS, TPWS, central locking and other systems mandatory on the main line, and being unable to use Mk1 or older stock.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I agree that the Mid Hants did plan a commuter service, however it would not have used Winchester (Chesil) station or even Winchester City. Winchester (Chisil) was on the Didcot, Newbury and Southampton route which the Mid Hants line didn't have a connection to. Also that route had been lifted years before!
Winchester City station was about one & a half miles south of where the Mid Hants line branched off the South Western route to Southampton and Weymouth. Running on the mainline wasn't seen as possible in those days! Also Winchester City had no bay platforms so not seen as the ideal terminus. The proposal was for a new Station near to Winchester Junction, with a bus connection, I seem to recall the name of Springvale being used.

What's the coordinates (for sticking into a Google Earth search) for Winchester City and the proposed new station near to Winchester Junction?

 

[MarkyT]

Running a service as part of the national network might involve heritage railways having to fit AWS, TPWS, central locking and other systems mandatory on the main line, and being unable to use Mk1 or older stock.

Good points. Certainly if stock owned by a heritage railway works out onto the main line it has to be approved to do so under some agreed process. Some NYMR locos and carriages (Mk 1s I believe) do this routinely to Whitby, so it is certainly possible today. I'm not clear as to what special measures are required but only certain locos are approved for Whitby which often means a loco change is required at Grosmont. The original Dart Valley Railway (now South Devon Railway) operated trains into Totnes main line station for a few years in the 1980s, but later built their own station on the other side of the river connected by a new pedestrian footbridge. The cost and difficulty of BR inspections of the rolling stock on a regular basis was cited at the time the arrangement was discontinued. Another problem arising from longer operating hours on heritage lines is signalling. Most heritage lines have individual traditional signaboxes at each blockpost, so keeping the whole railway open for extended periods is challenging using volunteer labour, and expensive if you have to employ people to cover the unsocial shifts. Resignalling and centralising control could help solve this but at a significant cost and difficulty, and with a risk of diluting the heritage atmosphere. Colour lights centrally controlled from a panel at Britannia Crossing can be seen on the Dartmouth Steam Railway between Paignton and Kingswear, a very commercially oriented tourist operation run for profit and where all operating staff are paid employees. Even there, the railway doesn't usually operate an evening or early morning service, or a daytime service all year round although to be fair the operating season has been extended progressively over the years until now only January is a complete shut down. Exceptionally this weekend it is the Dartmouth Regatta and an extended service IS being offered until late at night, and local bus services have also been extended. Scandalously however, since last year, summer or winter, there is now no local public transport whatsoever normally between Kingswear (for Dartmouth) and Torbay after the early evening (about 19:00 hours).
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Some heritage railways offer a local residents discount. I know the South Devon Railway does this through a 'local railcard' scheme where you have to apply proving your address is close to one of their stations. I volunteer for them and worked fairly regularly at Staverton earlier this year. I was surprised how many locals made use of the facility to get into Totnes for shopping and leisure. Maybe up to half a dozen on each of the earlier trains until about lunchtime. That would beat many National Rail rural stations!

 

[yorksrob]

Or the heritage railway could just connect. A lot easier at somewhere like Alton or keighley where you have an easy interchange.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If the narrow gauge Kirklees Light Railway's Shepley terminus was alongside the National Rail station, I'd consider using it to get into Huddersfield even though the Skelmanthorpe station is a good half-mile from my parents' house whereas the bus stop is about 50 yards.

 

[rower40]

Overheard at Bodmin General:
"When does this train get to Plymouth?"
The unfortunate customer had been told, when buying a ticket to London at the Bodmin Parkway ticket office (which is on the down side of the line), "Cross the footbridge, take the next train.". But the 'next train' was a Bodmin & Wenford steam train from platform 3, not the intended London HST from platform 2.

 

[JohnR]

Here is an amusing (and true!) story from the time I was volunterring as a guard on the Caledonian Railway in Brechin.

I was checking the tickets on the train just after it left Brechin, when one older passenger asked me how long the train took to get to Bridge of Don. It doesnt, I replied - its Bridge of Dun, and it takes 20 minutes. But I thought I could use it to get home to Aberdeen! wailed the poor lady. Turns out she had asked at the ticket office in Brechin and misheard. She had to catch a bus into Montrose and then catch the train.

 

[paul1609]

Or the heritage railway could just connect. A lot easier at somewhere like Alton or keighley where you have an easy interchange.

Sounds straightforward but its not as straightforward as it seems. At the Kent and East Sussex Railway a lot of our passengers for instance come from coach parties. The operators will only book parties if you can offer a train at a certain time and this is particularly so when you are offering profitable catering packages. The suitable time can be a widely range of factors from visits to other attractions in the locality, arrival of shuttles from France (we are a gateway attraction) or the timing of tides for cruise ships arriving in Dover. Of course we are still looking forward to the challenge of meeting Southeastern at Robertsbridge Junction in a few years.

 

[yorksrob]

Sounds straightforward but its not as straightforward as it seems. At the Kent and East Sussex Railway a lot of our passengers for instance come from coach parties. The operators will only book parties if you can offer a train at a certain time and this is particularly so when you are offering profitable catering packages. The suitable time can be a widely range of factors from visits to other attractions in the locality, arrival of shuttles from France (we are a gateway attraction) or the timing of tides for cruise ships arriving in Dover. Of course we are still looking forward to the challenge of meeting Southeastern at Robertsbridge Junction in a few years.

I must admit, I hadn't thought of that. I suppose a subsidy for a couple of commuter trains might be less than a dinner package, but on the plus side, might be a more stable income.

 

[nferguso]

As Duffield noted earlier in this thread, the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway is set up for 'ordinary' users to travel to and from the line. This is most definitely thanks to the support of East Midlands trains.

Our services are integrated into their timetables for the Matlock service: http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/Global/Timetables%20-%2015%20may%20to%2010%20dec%202016/MAY16%20TT3%20web%20version%20final.pdf


Meanwhile, EMT do offer through ticketing to Wirksworth and intermediate stations although just recently some of the fares have dropped out of the system (we're working on a fix). Just to prove it:

http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=WIR&dest=MAN

All our services connect with the Newark/Nottingham/Derby to Matlock service (both ways), while as you can see from this photo, interchange at Duffield is extremely straightforward.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Good points. Certainly if stock owned by a heritage railway works out onto the main line it has to be approved to do so under some agreed process. Some NYMR locos and carriages (Mk 1s I believe) do this routinely to Whitby, so it is certainly possible today. I'm not clear as to what special measures are required

Among them, somewhat impressively, is having the wheels and axles ultrasound scanned for cracks (even for a non-passenger movement)

 

[edwin_m]

Among them, somewhat impressively, is having the wheels and axles ultrasound scanned for cracks (even for a non-passenger movement)

You can imagine the reaction in the press and on here if the NYMR train broke an axle and blocked all service to Whitby for several days until someone worked out how to shift it.

 

[Muzer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WHmETKW72E

 

[Baxenden Bank]

North Yorkshire Moors Railway.

Adult Return Pickering to Whitby £27 with, at most, half a dozen trains per day.

That's not an attractive option for normal 'public transport' journeys.

 

[nferguso]

I'm a bit surprised here. I've just answered the thread's question with a pretty comprehensive explanation of how the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway is providing a service for ordinary passengers and - not a peep in response!

 

[Cowley]

I'm a bit surprised here. I've just answered the thread's question with a pretty comprehensive explanation of how the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway is providing a service for ordinary passengers and - not a peep in response!

Peep. I've been busy today and didn't see this but I'm going to get the train over from Nottingham when I'm up there seeing family next, due in no small part to your post.
Really impressive what you've all achieved up there.

 

[trash80]

Hey the EVR is my favourite heritage line, maybe you are just getting plenty of silent admiration

 

[edwin_m]

I can vouch for the good connections on the EVR having made a visit there by train soon after it opened through to Duffield. I believe Peak Rail at Matlock tries to do the same, but its journey time doesn't fit so well with the times of the EMT service there.

 

[nferguso]

Peep. I've been busy today and didn't see this but I'm going to get the train over from Nottingham when I'm up there seeing family next, due in no small part to your post.
Really impressive what you've all achieved up there.

Thanks to you all - I was worried we'd gone invisible!

 

[trash80]

Peak Rail could do with easier access between the NR platform and their own. If a train is already in then its a bit of a brisk walk up to the supermarket.

 

[AndrewE]

I must admit, I hadn't thought of that. I suppose a subsidy for a couple of commuter trains might be less than a dinner package, but on the plus side, might be a more stable income.

But a "stable" "subsidy" (your admission) is a bigger loss over the whole year! If the passenger revenue doesn't cover the operating costs then by definition it is likely to sink you eventually.
It's only when cash-starved (local and National) government with a wider perspective and deeper pockets will directly "subsidise" such services that they can be viable.

I think that these services should run, but the problem is that no-one will recompense the provider for the benefits in reduced traffic (fuel consumption, air pollution), kids fitness & health (walking or cycling to the station at each end) their lifestyle expectations (i.e. using public transport.)

Running a service or two every weekday morning and evening is way beyond most preserved lines' resources, and if you think about the time commitments with the split shifts it would be beyond what most people's lifestyle and family commitments could allow.

Give me good public transport please, but properly resourced, not subsidised by those expected to deliver it.

 

[yorksrob]

But a "stable" "subsidy" (your admission) is a bigger loss over the whole year! If the passenger revenue doesn't cover the operating costs then by definition it is likely to sink you eventually.
It's only when cash-starved (local and National) government with a wider perspective and deeper pockets will directly "subsidise" such services that they can be viable.

That's precisely what I was suggesting.

For a preserved railway, a subsidy coming from local Government for example, is still an income stream, and it's likely to be steadier and add up to more, than one-off, albeit lucrative charters.

That said, I wonder whether some preserved railways bay worry about becoming too useful for the locals !

 

[MarkyT]

I was worried we'd gone invisible!

Not at all! It's a great achievement to get your services published in a main line operator's timetable and get through fares set up. Perhaps Peak Rail's times will also appear in more detail in that document one day as well! I don't like EMTs little steam engine symbol in the tables though. It's not very representative of your usual motive power and it is particularly 'toy-like' in appearance. Probably Better to omit it entirely and include the heritage reference within the EVR operator description instead.

 

[swt class 450]

I didnt realise quite how many Heritage Railways have through tickets available. Looking on BR fares it seems like through tickets are available to:

• Bluebell Railway (available to "Bluebell Railway").
• Ecclesbourne Valley Railway (available to "Shottle" or "Idridgehay" or "Wirksworth" but strangely not to "Ravenstor" for some reason?).
• Peak Railway (available to "Darley Dale" or "Rowsley").
• Spa Valley Railway (available to "Groombridge" or "High Rocks" or "Tunbridge Wells West").

Are there any others with through tickets available?

Its great that the EVR times are in the EMT timetable. It would be great if other heritage railways had their times included in National Rail timetables as well. So many Heritage Railways seem to now serve National Rail stations.

 

[steevp]

On Saturday we used National Rail and the Wallingford & Cholsey (aka the Bunk Line) to get to the Bunkfest in Wallingford - great way to get there and singers and a bar on the W & C train on the way back! Will look at doing the same next year

 

[j.crocker355]

I've always felt the Cholsey and Wallingford railway are missing a trick not running a regular commuter service from Wallingford to Cholsey station

Or even GwR turbo's or 153's running into Wallingford


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[steevp]

I've always felt the Cholsey and Wallingford railway are missing a trick not running a regular commuter service from Wallingford to Cholsey station

Or even GwR turbo's or 153's running into Wallingford


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

There is no longer any connection from the C&W to the mainline at Cholsey, so would have to be provided by the C&W.

 

[philthetube]

Many years ago I traveled from Colne to Llanbedr, I was offered two routes on journey planner, one of which was.

Colne to Preston,
Preston to Crewe
Crewe to Llandudno Junction
Llandudno Junction to Blaenau Ffestiniog
Blaenau Ffestiniog to Machynlleth
Machynlleth to Llanbedr

I wish I had printed it and kept it, I did the whole journey on one ticket.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Many years ago I traveled from Colne to Llanbedr, I was offered two routes on journey planner, one of which was.

Colne to Preston,
Preston to Crewe
Crewe to Llandudno Junction
Llandudno Junction to Blaenau Ffestiniog
Blaenau Ffestiniog to Machynlleth
Machynlleth to Llanbedr

I wish I had printed it and kept it, I did the whole journey on one ticket.

Do you mean Minffordd rather than Machynlleth? As the FR doesn't run that far south!