Ordsall Chord

[CosherB]

Anyone know what stage the plans for this have reached? Has the alignment been chosen? Is it going ahead or has it yet to be ratified?

 

[Nym]

Not a clue, but I'm hoping to whatever is up there that there is going to be a degree of grade seperation at the junctions, hopfully Victoria - Chat Moss going over the top of the lot on a flyover, as that has the biggest approaches to climb and fall from, and will see the most services.

 

[Viscount702]

I don't think any funding was approved for grade separation only the chord itself.

There is a recognition that the curve will transfer conflicting movements from Piccadilly to Ordsall but nothing as far as I am aware is planned to solve it at present.

Like others I am interested to see where progress on the chord is being made, although I don't think it will be operation fully until 2016.

The interesting point is that under the Northern Hub it is suggested that it will be easier to build the new platforms 15 & 16 at Piccadilly if the Chord is open first. I know that no funding is yet available for the latter at present so they may not be built but if they are then the chord may be open before 2016 for diversion purposes during construction of these platforms. How that is supposed to work however is unclear.

 

[WatcherZero]

Interestingly NR's Oxford Road platform improvements have a target completion date of 2014 with possessions 'to coincide with and share Piccadilly platform construction closures to minimise disruption and line possessions.'

 

[Viscount702]

Which improvements are those and where are they mentioned as I couldn't find any reference to them

 

[WatcherZero]

Their making all but one platform DDA compliant, changes to the lifts. the remaining platform (One I think?) has been deemed to expensive to make compliant and will have to wait until a later program such as an extra platform possibly being added/remodelled five to improve interoperation with Piccadillys increased frequency.

 

[Viscount702]

I thought that if platforms 15 & 16 were built at Piccadilly then Oxford Road would be reduced to 4 platforms to mirror the position at Piccadilly and thereby give a better headway. If 15 & 16 are not built Oxford Road would I believe keep five and maybe have 6 reinstated to cater for some additional terminators from the west.

However the proposed works at Oxford Road and Piccadilly although been done at roughly the same time do not seem directly connected to the new Platforms 15 & 16.

Oddly I find on reading through the RUS that no mention that I could see is made to Platforms 15 and 16. Mind you the RUS albeit updated and now acknowledging the Funding of the chord was primarily written before that decision was made.

Isn't a decision on the funding of the rest of the Hub due in October

 

[ukrob]

It would be quite ludicrous to build it without grade separation. So that is probably what will happen.

It was also my understanding that platforms 1-4 at Oxford Road would mirror 13-16 at Piccadilly.

 

[cle]

So would they eventually want to reconstruct to create two islands as at future Piccadilly?

I'm not sure how that would happen with the main entrance and main Piccadilly bound platform having all the retail, circulation space etc....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So would they eventually want to reconstruct to create two islands as at future Piccadilly?

I'm not sure how that would happen with the main entrance and main Piccadilly bound platform having all the retail, circulation space etc....

Have any drawings been published that show how platforms 15 and 16 will appear as part of the proposed 4-platform through lines section ? There is an entrance complex on Fairfield Street which is far better than the meagre provision that was previously provided.

 

[Viscount702]

I haven't seen any drawings as to what is proposed.

I know the idea is to provide a new island platform to the south of Platforms 13/14.

Platform 13/14 would be used for trains to the south and Airport. Platforms 15/16 would be used for trains to Oxford Road Victoria and the north etc.

The reason for this is to increase capacity. The idea being that at present if a train is in platform 13 that train has to depart before the next train can enter. In the revised arrangement a train could be in 13 and another going south could pull into 14 and in so doing improve the headway

 

[cle]

Well unless the whole viaduct is quadded, which I doubt - one train will have to leave and so surely two through platforms at Oxford Road would work, providing everything stops - which I believe it would.

Maybe for pathing, everything would also need to stop at Deansgate (or nothing would?).

 

[Viscount702]

There is no intention to quad the whole viaduct.

I don't know about Deansgate.

The proposal for 15/16 at Piccadilly fits with the same arrangement at Oxford road. However the benefits would be lost if everything stops at Deansgate. I am therefore inclined to the view that not all trains will stop at Deansgate. The idea as to how the whole thing in principle will work is there, much of the fine detail is missing. Someone must have worked out the detail but it is subject to change depending on precisely what is ultimately to be funded

 

[snail]

There is an entrance complex on Fairfield Street which is far better than the meagre provision that was previously provided.

I remember the old Fairfield St entrance. Very narrow steep steps, certainly not DDA friendly.One would hope that they can include an entrance in the plans as 15/16 will be a long trek from the main concourse or even from the satellite lounge.

 

[table38]

I remember the old Fairfield St entrance. Very narrow steep steps, certainly not DDA friendly.

It was very handy for dropping off and picking up, especially from this side of Manchester, as were the stairs up from Store Street which came out by the Little Chef.

There is a lift from the "taxi" area on Fairfield Street straight up to the satellite lounge (and P12). I've often headed for that when running late for a P13 departure, although once it wasn't working and it's a long way back round the other way

 

[Whistler40145]

Are there any drawings of the proposed Ordsall Curve anywhere for public viewing?

 

[Viscount702]

Not as far as I am aware. It is probably too early for detailed drawings

 

[snail]

There is a lift from the "taxi" area on Fairfield Street straight up to the satellite lounge (and P12). I've often headed for that when running late for a P13 departure, although once it wasn't working and it's a long way back round the other way

Been there, done that! It's a handy shortcut from the Metrolink platform - when the lift is working.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not as far as I am aware. It is probably too early for detailed drawings

Will the former Liverpool Road station that is now a museum lose its rail connections to the national rail network once the Ordsall Chord is completed. Surely that fact will have been established by now.

 

[WatcherZero]

It is believed so but not known for certain as the final designs havent been published. Yes they are aware of the issue.

 

[Whistler40145]

AFAIK not much space is available to build the Ordsall Chord. I expect it will be an engineering miracle.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

AFAIK not much space is available to build the Ordsall Chord. I expect it will be an engineering miracle.

It will be a very tight radius curve, I should imagine.

 

[Nym]

unless they run into the empty land to the west, smooth out the curve, and run into platforms 3 and 4 at Salford Central?

 

[Whistler40145]

Is there any spare land North of the current line @ Ordsall Lane that a Flyover could be built?

My idea would be for trains from Piccadilly to join a Flyover @ Ordsall Lane, this would then travel in a North East direction, then curve back towards Salford, with a new Junction prior to Salford station.

I would like any constructive comments.

 

[snail]

Not a clue, but I'm hoping to whatever is up there that there is going to be a degree of grade seperation at the junctions, hopfully Victoria - Chat Moss going over the top of the lot on a flyover, as that has the biggest approaches to climb and fall from, and will see the most services.

That possibility was covered in the Manchester Hub study report but no options were proposed.

The report also mentions that passive provision for the Ordsall Chord link was made when building the new inner ring road by setting the road level below that of the railway and discusses the possibility of adding Liverpool line platforms at Salford Crescent.

 

[CosherB]

Will the former Liverpool Road station that is now a museum lose its rail connections to the national rail network once the Ordsall Chord is completed. Surely that fact will have been established by now.

Depends on the route. The shortest, a simple chord between the Deansgate and Salford Central lines, would cut the link into Liverpool Rd. An alternative layout would leave the Deansgate to Salford Crescent line to the south, then climb and turn north to fly over that line and the line to Salford Central, before descending into Salford Central.

The latter route would be much more expensive, but would avoid conflicting movments on the routes between Salford Crescent from Deansgate and Central. It would also preserve Liverpool Rd's access to the main line.

 

[snail]

Depends on the route. The shortest, a simple chord between the Deansgate and Salford Central lines, would cut the link into Liverpool Rd. An alternative layout would leave the Deansgate to Salford Crescent line to the south, then climb and turn north to fly over that line and the line to Salford Central, before descending into Salford Central.

Not saying it couldn't happen but everything published so far suggests that any grade separation work would be on the existing Victoria-Chat Moss line, not the new chord.

 

[Nym]

Not saying it couldn't happen but everything published so far suggests that any grade separation work would be on the existing Victoria-Chat Moss line, not the new chord.

Thats what would get my vote aswell, in future this should be an extremely busy section of line, and the grade seperation gets everything in the right place for the Victoria approaches aswell.

It also has the longest (and cheapest to build) approaches, and the shortest amount of bridge required, and the least amount of new land required to be purchased. I'll draw out what I mean and attach it soon.

EDIT: Done....
I've shared a map with you called Ordstall Curve:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=208537899835423960920.0004aca5da4462fc794da

 

[WatcherZero]

The early references to it said it would be 'over water and land' So I think its a bit more ambitious than your drawings Nym.

 

[Nym]

Errr, for one, both my options would work, and secondly, option two does cross water...