Ordsall Chord

[WatcherZero]

No it doesnt, starts from the far side of Trinity Way and loops back around. The early published Ordsall chord proposals are over the Ship Canal itself.

 

[Samtron2000]

Errr, for one, both my options would work, and secondly, option two does cross water...

How do you know both options would work!!! Are you a railway engineer??? Or is it just that they both work in your fantasy world. Also, unless google maps is playing up, option 2 doesn't cross water. Again, maybe it does in nym's fantasy world:roll:

 

[Nym]

Errr, what does the canal and locks contain then if it isn't water?

 

[Samtron2000]

Errr, what does the canal and locks contain then if it isn't water?

I've seen ponds wider than a canal lock so that is hardly a challenge. The problem you have with your route 2 is that it goes close to where they have created so marina style wide waters!! This area is planned for development and I'm not sure the developers will share the same desires for the land as yourself!!

 

[Nym]

Yes, but it still requires a corssing, and it's still water isn't it?

And developers only want one thing, £££ if there happens to be a purchase order land on their desk to build the curve via that kind of alignment I'm sure the land would just end up being baught.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

if there happens to be a purchase order land on their desk to build the curve via that kind of alignment I'm sure the land would just end up being bought.

I do not think that any plans to apply for a compulsory purchase of land that will be required to build the Ordsall Chord would be applied for, until the approval of the agreed route is reached. They will not just go for a "blanket" compulsory purchase order upon all the land requirements on all the possible provisional routes.

 

[Viscount702]

No CPO will be made until the preferred route is decided upon.

Any further news as to possible routes

 

[Viscount702]

I have posted the below on another forum (as some on here may have noticed) but am repeating it here in case there are others in the know

"The electrification from Manchester to Liverpool Preston and Blackpool is under way and will be completed about 2016. This will involve some track modification as I understand it on the approach to Victoria.

The Ordsall curve has received funding. I am assuming this will be built regardless of whether or not the remainder of the Northern Hub gets funding next year and be operational by about 2016.

It seems to me that as the chord will affect the electrification scheme and vice versa it would so far as possible be sensible to finalise the chord scheme and take that into account and modify the electrification scheme to suit so as to avoid unnecessary or duplicated work where feasible. Will that happen, because the chord scheme also requires and seems to include further track layout changes to Victoria (4 or 6 Platforms at Salford Central?). "

 

[John55]

This from the NR website will be of interest.

Presumably the details of route etc will be available at the consultations listed on this page.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/north/Ordsall-Chord.aspx

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Presumably the details of route etc will be available at the consultations listed on this page.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/north/Ordsall-Chord.aspx

Thank you for this information. I will most certainly be attending the first of these exhibitions at the Manchester Museum of Science and Industry on Friday, 7th October.

 

[Nym]

Thank you for this information. I will most certainly be attending the first of these exhibitions at the Manchester Museum of Science and Industry on Friday, 7th October.

Well for the time it is, you may well find me there too, no prize for spotting me though...

 

[snail]

Will that happen, because the chord scheme also requires and seems to include further track layout changes to Victoria (4 or 6 Platforms at Salford Central?). "

I don't see the connection here with changes to Victoria and at Salford Central. The chord will join the existing Chat Moss (Liverpool) line well before Salford Central, the proposals there are for additional platforms on that section of double track. Central originally had 4 platforms on the Wigan/Bolton lines but the 'Wigan' platforms were closed and the track taken up several years ago, I think around the time the Windsor Link was completed, leaving just the two current working platforms.

Victoria will need additional capacity for terminating services from the west, whether or not they call at Salford Central is of little relevance to that work.

 

[Viscount702]

John55

Thank you for the information. I hadn't seen the update on the NR website but was aware of the consultations which I thought were aimed more on the Hub as a whole rather than just the Curve.

Unfortunately I can't go to any of the consultations as I don't live anywhere near Manchester. No doubt others who do will update us.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Snail

You may have information which I don't.

I don't know the precise route of the proposed curve and how it fits with the existing layout.

I expect it to join with the Chat Moss line before Salford Central as you say. It has been suggested that Salford Central will have more platforms in use at some point and even 6 has been mentioned.

There is also talk of the new west bays at Victoria. It is not clear if they will be provided and where ,but the site of the Old Exchange Station has been mentioned and this would to me seem the most logical. If this is the solution or some other one I can see why the possibility of 6 platforms at Salford may be being looked at although personally I think there will only be 4 at most.

What I was getting at was the electrification which is under way and will be completed first requires some track changes but what I don't know. The chord when built will also requires changes in addition I believe to those for electrification and I was thinking that it would make more sense to do everything at one go if this should be possible.

What I do find interesting is that NR say the curve will be about 1K which is a bit longer than I think was being talked about previously.

 

[snail]

You may have information which I don't.

I don't know the precise route of the proposed curve and how it fits with the existing layout.

I expect it to join with the Chat Moss line before Salford Central as you say. It has been suggested that Salford Central will have more platforms in use at some point and even 6 has been mentioned.

I have no more information than what has been published so far, and my own knowledge of the area.

As I commented about Salford Central, it already has 4 platforms (but 2 are out of use) so adding platforms to the Chat Moss lines has to take the total to 6. I would be very surprised if the proposals are anything more than putting platforms adjacent to the two current running lines, though some alignment changes may be required to make them fit.

Some people (not you necessarily) are conflating the '6 platforms at Salford Central' comment to some wonderful interchange hub, ignoring what is currently there. The other popular misconception is that the station used to have platforms on the Chat Moss line at one time. It never has, though the diverging lines are very close to it - hence the suggestions to link them.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There is also talk of the new west bays at Victoria. It is not clear if they will be provided and where ,but the site of the Old Exchange Station has been mentioned and this would to me seem the most logical.

The matter of the former Manchester Exchange station has been discussed on more than one thread on different sub-forums in recent months. There is a joint construction project with both National Rail and a private development company envisaged, that would preclude the former station area from such usage as you mention.

 

[Nym]

Yes, but there are many many proposals kicking about at the moment, and Network Rail seems open to change...

Whatever happened to this 'Whitehall of the North' idea that I'd be quite happy for it to sod off and die in the bushes, or just use up other derelict space in Central Manchester (Yes there is plenty!) and keep the big chunk of Industrial land next to one of the busiest stations in the country, and ideally placed for an HS station alone until HS2 decide wheres best yeah? (Not to mention that Slade Ln - Ardwick will still need to be 6 track soon enough, (and >8 track Ardwick into Picc / Mayfeild) excluding HS2.)

Thats disappeared off the cards from Network Rail, or seems to. Tram-Train is stagnating, etc etc.

In offical documents I started off reading a new 300m link between viaducts, then 600m, now I'm reading 1km. If it's 1km that runs out from beyond Ordstall Lane Junction, or the new track alignment crosses ordstall lane then loops back, that would be a logical length (at 1km) to work with. It would also keep the MOSI connected, and provide passive provision for some later grade separation of the Chat Moss - Exchange route.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes, but there are many many proposals kicking about at the moment, and Network Rail seems open to change...

I have now found the information concerning the former Manchester Exchange station site. The project development is called "The Greengate Embankment" and is a joint development between Ask Developments and Network Rail.

In your comment above, you seem to suggest that Network Rail are now not fully committed to this project. Can you clarify exactly what you mean with regard to this matter.

 

[Nym]

I was on about the comitment to the Mayfeild area 'Whitehall of the North' and redevelopment of industrial land near railways in general with the not hearing anything. But there isn't much else that could be done with the Exchange site tbh, other than a full re-opening, or putting into place 3 or 4 platforms for services off of the Chat Moss route to terminate.

But with a realistic ceiling on services being...

4tph Ordstall Coard
-- 2tph Diggle Route
-- 2tph Todmorden Route
6tph Chat Moss
-- 2tph Wigan Stopper
-- 4tph Liverpool L St (2 Fast 2 Slow)
8tph Salford Crescent
-- 4tph Bolton
-- 2tph Wigan via Atherton
-- 2tph Leigh (Yes, I know it isn't built yet)

There could be come more coming to the chat moss route eventually, but even then, each pair of tracks at a maximum through Victoria will see 10tph, (that would be with 8tph over the Chat Moss from Victoria), adding in two freight paths across victoria onto the Aggregates sites, and the Bin Liners, with a Q path that makes 12tph per pair of tracks, now if a 3min headway is installed and NO SERVICES terminate at Victoria, then that should be acceivable, especially with grade seperation at Ordstall Lane, and the majority of services running through either being overpowered 185 units or electric units.

It would of course be really helpful to have space to terminate services from both the Chat Moss and Salford Central lines, but then it would mean crossing the flow of traffic in and out of the throught of the station to be able to do this, and when I've finished ranting, I think, with proper sidings or services running through to an appropriately electrified station, eg, Stalybridge, Rochdale, Ashburys, then with a 3min headway and 2min recovery and a nice tight timetable it would be possible to fit a massive timetable through without terminating platforms. But it would be very nice to have some, especially for the Chat Moss services, as these could be majority terminate at Victoria with only the 3 or so tph though passing into the through lines, taking 4tph off the throughs.

 

[Viscount702]

The attached were upload by a poster on another forum and clearly originate from NR. I can't find these documents on the NR website though at present but they relate to the consultation

The Curve as shown on the plan may only be indicative. I hope so because it will achieve what is needed but will be well short of ideal. Also what is shown on the plan does not seem to fit with the comments made on the NR website that the chord will be now about 1K long.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The attached were upload by a poster on another forum and clearly originate from NR. I can't find these documents on the NR website though at present but they relate to the consultation

The Curve as shown on the plan may only be indicative. I hope so because it will achieve what is needed but will be well short of ideal. Also what is shown on the plan does not seem to fit with the comments made on the NR website that the chord will be now about 1K long.

I should imagine that these documents will be part of the information on view at the various exhibitions to be held commencing with the first exhibition at the Manchester Museum of Science and Industry on Friday, 7th October. The link that shows the full schedule of these exhibitions has already been posted on an earlier posting on this thread.

 

[Nym]

Yep, I'll be there on Friday, Paul, if you're going you might spot me, I'll be asking all the really difficult and specific questions.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yep, I'll be there on Friday, Paul, if you're going you might spot me, I'll be asking all the really difficult and specific questions.

I would expect nothing less from you, noting your interest in this project, when the queries regarding future rail access to the museum and Ordsall Chord routes over water will be subjects amongst many others for discussion. I hope that they will have much in the way of published information that can be given to visitors to these exhibitions. It seems strange that the start time is 1500 for the very first exhibition, but it may well have been to allow exhibition visitors the opportunity to visit the museum complex prior to attending the exhibition.

 

[Nym]

Well, it's handy since I'm not finished at UMIST until 2pm...

The main chunk of my questions will proberbly relate to the route, provisions between Ordstall Lane, Deal St and Victoria, and Oxford Road. We're looking at anything possibly up to 14tph through Oxford Road, and 22tph to Victoria, and without total homogenous stock performance, I don't think either can cope.

The minimum that you'd be looking at is somthing like

4tph Ordstall Cord
--2tph Diggle
--1tph Calderdale
--1tph either Calderdale or Sheffeild via Philips Park
2tph Airport - Windsor Link (1 Blackpool, 1 Lakes)
1tph Stockport - Windsor Link
1tph Stockport - CLC Fast
2tph Airport - Chat Moss (1 Scotland, 1 Liverpool)
1tph Piccadilly (Airport) - Chat Moss
2tph Oxford Road - CLC Slow

Thats 13tph without any enhancements to services, thats actually dropping the Southport - Airport 1tph, or joining it up with the Lakes services and splitting at Bolton (Would mean handing it over to Northern along with some stock to run it though)

Add in the probable need for another...

1tph Stockport (Buxton) - CLC Semi Fast (Taking TPE's old Slot)

And keeping the Southport as well (If the Scotland service doesn't call at Wigan this would be needed for a direct Wigan - Airport service)

We're upto 15tph on what is effectivly a 2 track railway with flat crossings and 1 usable passing loop in one direction (Oxford Road). (Not to mention freight!)

That means an overall 4min headway and perfect timing for it to work, technically it should be possible at Oxford Road, provided there is a strict 2min dwell time and a 2min headway, but to stop things queing up you WILL need 4 through platforms at Piccadilly, as this should reduce the pressure to have everything turning up at exactly the right time. It would also be a lot better to not have anything terminating at Oxford Road. So provision of some reversing sidings between the slow lines (or what would potentially become the through approach lines if the layout is enhanced at Piccadilly to become, East, Stockport Fast, Stockport Slow, Styal).

If theres going to be any more enhancement of services over the Oxford Road corridor, it will need a major rebuild of Oxford Road, as you may know I've looked into the space available on viaduct and there is space for two 170m long platforms and two 100m long platforms on the island between, all with independent approaches, would provide one arriving one departing availability and sensible capacity shoots up to 24tph, or remains at a steady 16tph with better terminating facilities for the CLC (Not needing to cross the flow of the Picc bound traffic when leaving)

 

[swt_passenger]

The attached were upload by a poster on another forum and clearly originate from NR. I can't find these documents on the NR website though at present but they relate to the consultation

The Curve as shown on the plan may only be indicative. I hope so because it will achieve what is needed but will be well short of ideal. Also what is shown on the plan does not seem to fit with the comments made on the NR website that the chord will be now about 1K long.

They do have a knack of exaggerating projects by adding the lengths of up and down lines on a two track railway...

 

[dggar]

Yep, I'll be there on Friday, Paul, if you're going you might spot me, I'll be asking all the really difficult and specific questions.

Do we know whether this will be presentaion followed by Qs & As or just a display with people on hand to answer questions.

 

[WatcherZero]

A few poster boards and staff answering questions probably. If it was a presentation and Q&A they would have narrower consultation hours.

 

[snail]

The main chunk of my questions will proberbly relate to the route, provisions between Ordstall Lane, Deal St and Victoria, and Oxford Road. We're looking at anything possibly up to 14tph through Oxford Road, and 22tph to Victoria, and without total homogenous stock performance, I don't think either can cope.

Do you really think they will answer questions on specific services at this stage? So much depends on plans elsewhere fitting into place my bet would be a generic nodding of the head and little info given out. The main purpose of the consultation is to (a) see if it's considered a Good Thing and (b) collect opinions on the route options.

Good luck!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I was just about to make a posting of all the dates, times and premises of these exhibitions (as I did for the Metrolink Second City Crossing events) when I realised that Viscount702 had posted a link in posting # 49.

 

[Nym]

So, who is going to the consultation today at the MOSI?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

My wife and I visited the Ordsall Chord first exhibition at MOSI today which was not scheduled to start until 1500, so we took lunch there, but when we descended to the ground floor at 1345, we were informed that the stand was now open, as the press had departed early.

What a disappointment. For forum members with National Rail information already in their possession about this project, nothing was learnt. No details of alternative chord lines that slightly varied from the original drawing (even though it was admitted these existed), "grade separation" was met with a blank look and all that we were given was a card folder with A5 4pp cards on:-
Ordsall Chord
The Northern Hub
Electric Future
Manchester Victoria
Plus a feedback form on all four items above.

I might as well have used the £25.00 travel and lunch costs in our local area on a lunch at one of our local restaurants.