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Ordsall Chord

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Greybeard33

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The NR website has a list of papers relating to the public enquiry. Among them is a Statement of Case from Mark Whitby, in which he presents an alternative plan with 6 variants. Basically the same as the plan proposed by QueensCurve in Post #470.

The link is :- http://www.networkrail.co.uk/north/ordsall-chord/statement-of-case-mark-whitby.pdf

It is surprising, to say the least, that this information was not presented in public. Indeed, I would have thought English Heritage would have brought the enquiry's attention to its existence, as they were among those with the strongest objections.
Network Rail's Ordsall Chord website, http://www.networkrail.co.uk/north/Ordsall-Chord.aspx, contains links to all the numerous Inquiry documents, both pro and anti, for those with the time and patience to wade through them.

There are diagrams of some of the alternative options in http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/projects/northern%20hub/ordsall-chord/proofs%20of%20evidence/poe%2002%20-%20eng%20and%20construction%20-%20volume%202.pdf from Page 50 on. From Page 85 on it has NR's engineering objections to Mark Whitby's proposed alternative routes. Other documents linked from the website give NR's critique of Mark Whitby's assertions about cost and regeneration impact.

English Heritage favours "Option 15", the Salford Locks alternative route, which was strongly opposed by Salford Council and Scarborough Developments. There is a detailed, 58 page, Engineering Analysis Briefing Note for this option in NR's Statement of Case http://www.networkrail.co.uk/ordsall-chord/statement-of-case/network-rail.pdf, starting on Page 115. This includes detailed drawings and a Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats analysis. It concluded that Option 15 is a viable engineering solution but performs poorly in terms of environment and sustainability. NR's rationale for selecting Option 14 over Option 15 is summarised on Pages 251 & 252 of the Statement of Case document.
 
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ironstone11

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There are diagrams of some of the alternative options in http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/projects/northern%20hub/ordsall-chord/proofs%20of%20evidence/poe%2002%20-%20eng%20and%20construction%20-%20volume%202.pdf from Page 50 on. From Page 85 on it has NR's engineering objections to Mark Whitby's proposed alternative routes. Other documents linked from the website give NR's critique of Mark Whitby's assertions about cost and regeneration impact.

Many thanks for the link. It certainly points out the weaknesses of Mark Whitby's proposals and demonstrates that are really no realistic alternatives to NR's current design.
 

swt_passenger

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Many thanks for the link. It certainly points out the weaknesses of Mark Whitby's proposals and demonstrates that are really no realistic alternatives to NR's current design.

Yes, a useful find wasn't it.

Save us from well-intentioned amateur rail engineers, eh? The TWA Order enquiry documents for the Chiltern Evergreen 3 make similar reading, NR clearly have to put significant time into explaining away all sorts of alternative ideas that in broad terms they have already ruled out at an earlier stage for perfectly valid reasons, before the developed proposals ever get much publicity.
 

TrickyHex

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The report also appears to scupper there ever being the possibility of grade separation at the Windsor link / Victoria to Chat Moss crossing at Ordsall Lane. This is going to be a busy pinch point in the scheme of things.
 

Senex

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The report also appears to scupper there ever being the possibility of grade separation at the Windsor link / Victoria to Chat Moss crossing at Ordsall Lane. This is going to be a busy pinch point in the scheme of things.

It all seems to have been designed to meet an assumed train service with very little room for expansion, yet at a time when numbers using the railways are still rising sharply year on year. And isn't that string of flat junctions through central Manchester going to be an operating nightmare?
 

TrickyHex

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It all seems to have been designed to meet an assumed train service with very little room for expansion, yet at a time when numbers using the railways are still rising sharply year on year. And isn't that string of flat junctions through central Manchester going to be an operating nightmare?

It looks like it:|
 

ajdunlop

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And at the moment there is a lot of space around there which won't be the case in the future as a lot of development is planned. Could the whole of that area's sprawled junctions and links not have been combined into one junction without conflicts and freeing up some land?
 

Darren R

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And at the moment there is a lot of space around there which won't be the case in the future as a lot of development is planned. Could the whole of that area's sprawled junctions and links not have been combined into one junction without conflicts and freeing up some land?

Yes - if money were no object. Unfortunately Network Rail have take something into account that objectors (and indeed amateur planners!) don't: cost.
 

Nym

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Yes - if money were no object. Unfortunately Network Rail have take something into account that objectors (and indeed amateur planners!) don't: cost.

However, as they are now the long term asset custodians working under the DfT, should long term outcome requirements and therefore cost of replacement if not sufficiently specified (including the disruption to an enhanced service level, inflation and increase in labour costs) be taken into account now for any 'simplifications' or cost reductions to a project.

This is the exact same problem that so many PPPs suffer with is the do-minimum approach to projects, that will see it last for another 20 years of growth, rather than looking for the actual lifespan of the asset that is around 50 years minimum likely to be up to 150 years, and planning for the longer term growth.
 

TrickyHex

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Yes - if money were no object. Unfortunately Network Rail have take something into account that objectors (and indeed amateur planners!) don't: cost.

This may be the case but it would be a sweeter pill to swallow if the money per capita spent on the rail system was distributed more equitably. This may sound like a north south rant, but the scale of what is being provided on Thameslink and Crossrail is unimaginable in the provinces. Its not a case of bregrudging London for having it but the frustration of never seeing the save level of vision and investment elsewhere.
 

ianhr

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This is the exact same problem that so many PPPs suffer with is the do-minimum approach to projects, that will see it last for another 20 years of growth, rather than looking for the actual lifespan of the asset that is around 50 years minimum likely to be up to 150 years, and planning for the longer term growth.

I agree. Where would we be now if 19th Century engineers had adopted the minimalist approach which seems to be obligatory today? We have already squandered a large part of the legacy that they bequeathed us.

The Ordsall chord scheme is trying to make the best out of the drastic downgrading and rationalisation inflicted on Manchester's railways during the late BR period around 1990, when Victoria was run down, the busy Bury & Altrincham lines reduced to tramway and far too much traffic was diverted through platforms 13 & 14 at Piccadilly. This was added to the earlier closure of Manchester Central & it's approach lines. The chord is the CHEAPEST solution to attempt to integrate the north and southside networks and even if implemented will be plagued with operating constraints.

The only really adequate solution would be a north-south or north-west to south-east tunnel which would be HUGELY expensive and is not going to happen.
 
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snowball

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I agree. Where would we be now if 19th Century engineers had adopted the minimalist approach which seems to be obligatory today?

Surely they often did. They could only spend the funds they could get from shareholders. Brunel followed a relatively cheap coastal route in the West Country and built wooden viaducts that didn't last very long. For thirty years north-south trains had to use a section of the Liverpool & Manchester line between Earlestown and Parkside. When a cut-off line was opened in 1864 to connect up the WCML it was only double track. Stockport viaduct was originally only double track. Etc, etc.
 

snowball

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To be be honest I didn't have a clear idea of how long they lasted. But a quick glance at Wikipedia suggests a lot were built around 1860 and rebuilt around 1900.
 

ianhr

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Surely they often did. They could only spend the funds they could get from shareholders. Brunel followed a relatively cheap coastal route in the West Country and built wooden viaducts that didn't last very long. For thirty years north-south trains had to use a section of the Liverpool & Manchester line between Earlestown and Parkside. When a cut-off line was opened in 1864 to connect up the WCML it was only double track. Stockport viaduct was originally only double track. Etc, etc.

Yes, but the L&MR was not exactly under-engineered considering it might have been horse or cable worked and is only realising it's full potential now with electrification. In many cases capacity was doubled once the demand became apparent, as you say Stockport viaduct was widened, most of the Standedge route became 4 track if we include the Micklefield Loop etc. I cannot see capacity enhancements happening on this scale today even though there is clearly a great deal of suppressed demand, in particular for Trans-Pennine journeys and suburban and regional traffic to and from Manchester. Most of the capacity which has been stripped out over the last 50 years cannot easily be put back because land has been sold off for so called 'development'. Furthermore, as a previous post indicates, the obviously necessary grade separation at Ordsall/Windsor Jcts is impossible or ruled out because the land is worth more for even more property 'development'. All this 'development' increases demand on already overstretched infrastructure. Perhaps there should be a compulsory levy on all 'development' to pay for infrastructure investment, and not just railways but also electricity generating capacity, water supply, sewers etc. but I suppose this would not be considered appealing to investors in a "Britain open for business"....just bang up the properties and take the public infrastructure for granted!
 

Nym

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I agree. Where would we be now if 19th Century engineers had adopted the minimalist approach which seems to be obligatory today? We have already squandered a large part of the legacy that they bequeathed us.

The Ordsall chord scheme is trying to make the best out of the drastic downgrading and rationalisation inflicted on Manchester's railways during the late BR period around 1990, when Victoria was run down, the busy Bury & Altrincham lines reduced to tramway and far too much traffic was diverted through platforms 13 & 14 at Piccadilly. This was added to the earlier closure of Manchester Central & it's approach lines. The chord is the CHEAPEST solution to attempt to integrate the north and southside networks and even if implemented will be plagued with operating constraints.

The only really adequate solution would be a north-south or north-west to south-east tunnel which would be HUGELY expensive and is not going to happen.

If one wanted a closer to 'once and for all' solution to rail transport in Manchester it would involve a lot more than a £260m chord to link a couple of lines together.

For the next 50 years, off the top of my head some high level decriptions of the projects would be...

Ordsall Chord (Grade Separated as much as possible, using the spare land)
or
Ancoats to Mayfieid Flyover, including re-opening of platforms at Mayfield, connected by high speed moving walkways to the tail end of Platforms 11/12 at Piccadilly. Splitting into service groups to avoid overlong walks for platform alterations.

15/16 at Manchester Piccadilly, linked into the above development if required.

Re-opening of Manchester Central and mixed use 4/5 tracking between Central / Deansgate and Cornbrook.
Seperation of Metrolink and Reintroduced Heavy Rail from Trafford Bar / Cornbrook (current route) to Altrinham.
Cornbrook interchange to provide interchange for new Central - Mid Cheshire route, CLC Route and Metrolink.
Four track from Trafford Bar to Altinham where possible, in order to provide 6tph all stations and 6tph semi fast.
Metrolink to run via Elevated viaduct from Panoma to Trafford Depot, return to Line of Route.
Possible four tracking from E Didsbury to Trafford, 2 Metrolink, 2 Heavy, route re-opened via Hazel Grove.
6/8 platform station at Manchester Central with access to re-opened heavy lines and CLC lines.
CLC 25kV OHLE electrified, service intergrated with MerseyRail and increased to 4, 6 or 8tph. All semi and fast services via Newton le Willows.
Metrolink - additional platforms at Manchester Oxford Road, running from Deansgate-GMex over Whitworth St to a pair of platforms sharing a common concourse with Oxford Road or Adjacent to, possible street extention via Whitworth St West to two new platforms at Piccadilly Low Level. (Allowing for a sensible way to run 45/50/60tph through Cornbrook...

Electrification of pretty much every stopping route.

Victoria Eastern Terminating capacity, Rochdale, Stalybridge and Ashburys / Guide Bridge to provide additional capacity.

Heavy rail to Leigh from a new concreted viaduct junction at Worsley, 3tph EMU interworked with Wigan via Atherton services. (Salford Crescent expected to handle up to 18tph.)

4 track Ardwick - Guide Bridge

2 bay platforms and extention of electrification to Chinley (all routes).

Western and Mid Cheshire access to Trafford Park reversing line on the "Birdcage" viaduct via Cornbrook Interchange.

That's just the start, I could see more than this needed with the way Manchester's economy is growing...

PS of what I forgot...

6 Track Slade Lane Junction to Ardwick, 10 track Ardwick to Piccadilly & Mayfeild (Including Viaduct), segregating the Airport Lines.
If possible, change the layout at Levenshume and Heaton Chappel to paired by direction to get rid of a lot of crossing moves at each end, granted you would loose the cross platform interchange at Stockport though. It may be best to keep Slade Ln as is if one is providing a segregated line for the airport services.
 
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ianhr

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Yes Nym, I agree with all that. It might sound an extravagant wish list but it could probably all be met within the total cost of CrossRail.

I have always thought that the Brussels junction Railway is one of the best examples of how to integrate an urban railway network. I think it was done in the 1930s and presumably expense was no obstacle although I am not sure how it was financed. Other examples that I have always admired are the Berlin Stadtbahn and the system in and around Philadelphia. If only Manchester could achieve something like these it would have a chance of becoming a world class city.
 

stockport1

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If one wanted a closer to 'once and for all' solution to rail transport in Manchester it would involve a lot more than a £260m chord to link a couple of lines together.

For the next 50 years, off the top of my head some high level decriptions of the projects would be...

Ordsall Chord (Grade Separated as much as possible, using the spare land)
or
Ancoats to Mayfieid Flyover, including re-opening of platforms at Mayfield, connected by high speed moving walkways to the tail end of Platforms 11/12 at Piccadilly. Splitting into service groups to avoid overlong walks for platform alterations.

15/16 at Manchester Piccadilly, linked into the above development if required.

Re-opening of Manchester Central and mixed use 4/5 tracking between Central / Deansgate and Cornbrook.
Seperation of Metrolink and Reintroduced Heavy Rail from Trafford Bar / Cornbrook (current route) to Altrinham.
Cornbrook interchange to provide interchange for new Central - Mid Cheshire route, CLC Route and Metrolink.
Four track from Trafford Bar to Altinham where possible, in order to provide 6tph all stations and 6tph semi fast.
Metrolink to run via Elevated viaduct from Panoma to Trafford Depot, return to Line of Route.
Possible four tracking from E Didsbury to Trafford, 2 Metrolink, 2 Heavy, route re-opened via Hazel Grove.
6/8 platform station at Manchester Central with access to re-opened heavy lines and CLC lines.
CLC 25kV OHLE electrified, service intergrated with MerseyRail and increased to 4, 6 or 8tph. All semi and fast services via Newton le Willows.
Metrolink - additional platforms at Manchester Oxford Road, running from Deansgate-GMex over Whitworth St to a pair of platforms sharing a common concourse with Oxford Road or Adjacent to, possible street extention via Whitworth St West to two new platforms at Piccadilly Low Level. (Allowing for a sensible way to run 45/50/60tph through Cornbrook...

Electrification of pretty much every stopping route.

Victoria Eastern Terminating capacity, Rochdale, Stalybridge and Ashburys / Guide Bridge to provide additional capacity.

Heavy rail to Leigh from a new concreted viaduct junction at Worsley, 3tph EMU interworked with Wigan via Atherton services. (Salford Crescent expected to handle up to 18tph.)

4 track Ardwick - Guide Bridge

2 bay platforms and extention of electrification to Chinley (all routes).

Western and Mid Cheshire access to Trafford Park reversing line on the "Birdcage" viaduct via Cornbrook Interchange.

That's just the start, I could see more than this needed with the way Manchester's economy is growing...

PS of what I forgot...

6 Track Slade Lane Junction to Ardwick, 10 track Ardwick to Piccadilly & Mayfeild (Including Viaduct), segregating the Airport Lines.
If possible, change the layout at Levenshume and Heaton Chappel to paired by direction to get rid of a lot of crossing moves at each end, granted you would loose the cross platform interchange at Stockport though. It may be best to keep Slade Ln as is if one is providing a segregated line for the airport services.

that would be a fair start and what is *needed*.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Apparently the Chord has got approval from the SoS today.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/network-rail-ordsall-chord-order-decision-letter

Indeed, details now on the DfT site.
Pretty much approved as per NR's plans.
The qualifications seem mostly to be procedural rather than technical.
"Option 15" was apparently given a great deal of consideration, but the dis-benefits (mainly to the regeneration of the Middlewood Locks area of Salford, and further delay to Northern Hub capacity) outweighed the benefits.
Looks like NR can get going fairly quickly, though I'm sure the original timescale will not be met.
There are some contractual conditions imposed.
The decision is open for challenge, of course.
It's a good job the decision was taken before the election.
Delay beyond the election would probably have injected another round of uncertainty under a new regime.
 

WatcherZero

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Interestingly according to annex 2, you can challenge the process of the order being made and the wording of the order but you cannot challenge the granting of planning permission by the order without going to a high court judge. So while you can quibble its quite hard to actually overturn the decision.
 
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ironstone11

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Interestingly according to annex 2, you can challenge the process of the order being made and the wording of the order but you cannot challenge the granting of planning permission by the order without going to a high court judge. So while you can quibble its quite hard to actually overturn the decision.
Yes, the Chiltern Oxford Link was challenged in the high court on procedural grounds, rather than planning issues. All it achieved was a lot of wasted time and a significant delay to the start of the project.
 

table38

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MEN article (plus a look-back to to "40 years on from the original plan to link Piccadilly and Victoria - underground") at:

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchesters-piccadilly-victoria-stations-linked-8920259

The £85m Ordsall Chord has been given the go-ahead by Secretary of State for Transport Patrick McLoughlin - a decision expected to trigger millions of pounds worth of regeneration while easing congestion the regions’ railways.

When funding for the project was announced in 2011, the date given for completion was 2017.

ordsall-chord-web.jpg
 

Starmill

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Who went to those lengths to challenge something as benign as the Chiltern Oxford Link?
 

swt_passenger

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Who went to those lengths to challenge something as benign as the Chiltern Oxford Link?

A Mr Sean Feeney, of Summertown:

A NEW rail link between Oxford and London will go ahead after the failure of a High Court challenge today.

Summertown resident Sean Feeney has lost his High Court bid to stop Chiltern Railways’ Evergreen 3 project.

He argued the Department for Transport had not followed the correct process in awarding permission to the operator.

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/10426905.New_Oxford_London_rail_link_given_go_ahead/

The high court decision is online somewhere or other but I can't find it at the moment, I'll have a look tomorrow when home.

Edited to add link to judgement, though it is a dull read:

http://www.richardbuxton.co.uk/transcripts/feeney-v-secretary-state-transport-others
 
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lejog

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A Mr Sean Feeney, of Summertown:



The high court decision is online somewhere or other but I can't find it at the moment, I'll have a look tomorrow when home.

Chiltern annoyed him by referring his original objections as being from "some dude" and had to apologize. Not wise when he had already launched one frivolous judical review against Oxford City Council.

As a result of his activities, there were calls for the law to be changed so only those with a financial interest could call for a judicial review, but I doubt this has been enacted yet.
 

deltic08

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In many cases capacity was doubled once the demand became apparent, as you say Stockport viaduct was widened, most of the Standedge route became 4 track if we include the Micklefield Loop etc.!

Very close but wrong county. I think you mean Micklehurst. There is always some clever so and so on this forum who picks up other peoples errors!!!
 
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