Ordsall Chord

[Darren R]

Notices are going up at affected stations warning of the closure of Manchester Victoria and Salford Central over the Easter weekend, for engineering works associated with the Ordsall Chord.

The posters also state that: "The Ordsall Chord is...due to be completed in December 2017." Surely this isn't realistic? (Even without the best efforts of the egregious Mr Whitby to speed matters along. )

 

[SodTheDrummer]

Notices are going up at affected stations warning of the closure of Manchester Victoria and Salford Central over the Easter weekend, for engineering works associated with the Ordsall Chord.

The posters also state that: "The Ordsall Chord is...due to be completed in December 2017." Surely this isn't realistic? (Even without the best efforts of the egregious Mr Whitby to speed matters along. )

NR will continue working away until TWO is revoked, which hopefully wont happen. Hurry up guys! Just in case the judges are of a similar intelligence to Whitby..:roll: Plenty of activity going on the last few days as I've been passing.. :grin:

 

[anorack 1]

In the unlikely event of the TWO being revoked. Could the Dft. or NR. have the decision overturned by the Supreme Court?

 

[hwl]

In the unlikely event of the TWO being revoked. Could the Dft. or NR. have the decision overturned by the Supreme Court?

Plenty of options.
Directly leglislate for it or go for a DCO based on the current scheme as is developed beyond spade ready. The only problem with DCO is less room for change than TWO hence transport projects try to use TWO to give more room for changes later if a problem arrises.
The SoS could re assess and come to the same decision which would be easy if work has started on the new resident development which block the Whitby scheme.

 

[snowball]

Plenty of options.
Directly leglislate for it or go for a DCO based on the current scheme as is developed beyond spade ready. The only problem with DCO is less room for change than TWO hence transport projects try to use TWO to give more room for changes later if a problem arrises.

I think primary legislation would be required - an act of parliament. I don't think a DCO is an option. Earlier stages of the legal preparations for the Chord were done on the assumption that it would be authorised by a DCO, but a change in the legislation meant that the scheme fell below the size threshold for a DCO and so the work had to be re-done as a TWO application.

(DCO = Development Consent Order
TWO = Transport & Works Act Order)

Edit: Anorack's question remains: if the Appeal Court were to decide in favour of Whitby, would the SoS be able to appeal to the Supreme Court?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Notices are going up at affected stations warning of the closure of Manchester Victoria and Salford Central over the Easter weekend, for engineering works associated with the Ordsall Chord.

The posters also state that: "The Ordsall Chord is...due to be completed in December 2017." Surely this isn't realistic? (Even without the best efforts of the egregious Mr Whitby to speed matters along. )

Quite realistic.

 

[po8crg]

Edit: Anorack's question remains: if the Appeal Court were to decide in favour of Whitby, would the SoS be able to appeal to the Supreme Court?

Yes. That's what the Supreme Court is for.

Note that the Court of Appeal can grant leave to appeal, but usually won't (it only will if it thinks that the case is sufficiently legally interesting that it needs hearing at the higher level). If it doesn't, then you apply to the Supreme Court for leave to appeal, and they they decide whether to hear the case or not.

It used to be called a writ of certioriari back when it was the House of Lords (and still is called such for the US Supreme Court), and plenty of lawyers still call it "cert" - you apply for cert and then the Supreme Court may grant cert, or decline cert.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can anyone recall a similar situation in Europe where a single person has been able to disrupt a rail project in the way that Whitby has done so far?

 

[Corporal Jones]

Is Whitby his own man or is he acting for somebody?

 

[snowball]

Several road schemes, notably the Aberdeen Western Peripheral Route, have been delayed by repeated appeals by seemingly obsessive individuals. The road authorities usually deferred the start of construction until all possibilities of appeal had been exhausted.

 

[Disorientxpres]

The line through Shoreditch High Street was the target of extensive litigation that was a lot like this case.

 

[kevconnor]

An update on the appeal by Mr Whitby whereas it was previously listed to possibly be heard as a 'Float on 12-Apr-16 or 13-Apr-16' it has now been given a 'fixed' hearing date of 21-Mar-16.

 

[snowball]

An update on the appeal by Mr Whitby whereas it was previously listed to possibly be heard as a 'Float on 12-Apr-16 or 13-Apr-16' it has now been given a 'fixed' hearing date of 21-Mar-16.

WatcherZero has said on SSC that the date was brought forward at the request of Network Rail so that they won't have to pause the work (unless, of course, the decision goes against them).

 

[PR1Berske]

WatcherZero has said on SSC that the date was brought forward at the request of Network Rail so that they won't have to pause the work (unless, of course, the decision goes against them).

In which case "pause" becomes "mothballed", then heaven knows what comes next....

 

[HowardGWR]

WatcherZero has said on SSC that the date was brought forward at the request of Network Rail so that they won't have to pause the work (unless, of course, the decision goes against them).

It will effectively go against them but factually not, because NR isn't the litigant.

 

[Elecman]

What happens if the judgement goes against Daft/SoS could they just instruct NR to carry on regardless? What would be the consequences as presumably any fine levied for non compliance would be a fina against the treasury to the treasury?

 

[Darren R]

What happens if the judgement goes against Daft/SoS could they just instruct NR to carry on regardless? What would be the consequences as presumably any fine levied for non compliance would be a fina against the treasury to the treasury?

A court judgement can't just be ignored (however tempting it may be!) - the consequences would be jail for contempt of court.

If Whitby does win, I suspect an immediate appeal will be lodged by the Secretary of State.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

A court judgement can't just be ignored (however tempting it may be!) - the consequences would be jail for contempt of court.

If Whitby does win, I suspect an immediate appeal will be lodged by the Secretary of State.

I was under the impression that Whitby was appealing the decision on the basis of process, not evidence, so all that can happen is that a review of the legal basis of the decision process will take place; one has already happened and it found in favour of the SoS.

One can only hope that (weirdly) he wins, a second review finds NO fault and the supreme court lists him as a vexatious litigant ...

 

[wadia13]

I was under the impression that Whitby was appealing the decision on the basis of process, not evidence, so all that can happen is that a review of the legal basis of the decision process will take place; one has already happened a it found in favour of the SoS.

One can only hope that (weirdly) he wins, a second review finds fault and the supreme court lists him as a vexatious litigant ...

Wouldn't it be better if Whitby just lost and exhausted all his legal options? If he wins, its another big question as to if he is declared a vexatious litigant. Also the chance of further delays and cost overruns that a ruling in Whitby's favour could cause. In contrast, by the mere act of winning, wouldn't it show his claims have legitimacy?

 

[furnessvale]

Wouldn't it be better if Whitby just lost and exhausted all his legal options? If he wins, its another big question as to if he is declared a vexatious litigant. Also the chance of further delays and cost overruns that a ruling in Whitby's favour could cause. In contrast, by the mere act of winning, wouldn't it show his claims have legitimacy?

I don't think a winner could be declared vexatious.

The whole point of vexatious is a loser who just won't give up.

(Perhaps I am misreading your post?)

 

[hwl]

I think Joseph Locke's point was that if he wins (his appeal against not being granted leave to appeal) then loses the next stage which would be the actual appeal itself that might be the best option...

 

[SodTheDrummer]

I think Joseph Locke's point was that if he wins (his appeal against not being granted leave to appeal) then loses the next stage which would be the actual appeal itself that might be the best option...

Surely the best option would be for the irritating little man to go away and let NR get on with building a vital piece of infrastructure. And then name the viaduct 'Whitby viaduct' or something...?

 

[anorack 1]

I think Joseph Locke's point was that if he wins (his appeal against not being granted leave to appeal) then loses the next stage which would be the actual appeal itself that might be the best option...

If Whitby wins his appeal against not being able to appeal. What happens to the Easter closure of Victoria and the rest of the planned works. Will it mean even more delays and cost?

 

[snowball]

He has already won his appeal against not being granted leave to appeal. It ws granted "on the papers" on 18th January. The case coming up this month is his substantive appeal against the decision of the judicial review which supported the original decision to authorise the chord.

I don't think we yet know what reasons he will give why that decision should (in his view) be set aside.

I think JL is saying, among other things, that even if the upcoming case goes in his favour, the result will not be a declaration that the original approval was wrong, but rather that there has to be a re-run of the judicial review of the original approval - which could come to the same conclusion the second time.

This however would still result in a massive new delay to the scheme.

 

[notlob.divad]

Out of interest, and this may be the wrong place for the question, but if he does win his appeal and the process has to be repeated at presumably great cost and delay:
a) how does this impact on the new franchises which seem to be tied in quite tightly with the new infrastructure.
b) is there any other work that network rail could get on with maybe bringing forward works at Oxford Road, Piccadilly scheduled for after the chord so that the overall project timescale is not impacted too much.

It strikes me that if the chord project is delayed it has the potential to cascade delays across a series of projects around the region.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

I think Joseph Locke's point was that if he wins (his appeal against not being granted leave to appeal) then loses the next stage which would be the actual appeal itself that might be the best option...

Indeed.

Out of interest, and this may be the wrong place for the question, but if he does win his appeal and the process has to be repeated at presumably great cost and delay:
a) how does this impact on the new franchises which seem to be tied in quite tightly with the new infrastructure.
b) is there any other work that network rail could get on with maybe bringing forward works at Oxford Road, Piccadilly scheduled for after the chord so that the overall project timescale is not impacted too much.

It strikes me that if the chord project is delayed it has the potential to cascade delays across a series of projects around the region.

The appeal (etc.) is not about evidence, as it cannot be, so all that will happen is a further review of the inquiry's findings, from a legal point of view. This will have an effect on the programme, but not sufficient to consider accelerating other projects that are themselves subject to TWAO anyway.

The only costs will be to us, the taxpayer, as Whitby is fighting BritGov PLC directly, with his liability for other's costs already capped.

It is in the DfT's interest to harass the SoS for any subsequent review of the case to be conducted as rapidly as possible ....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

An update on the appeal by Mr Whitby whereas it was previously listed to possibly be heard as a 'Float on 12-Apr-16 or 13-Apr-16' it has now been given a 'fixed' hearing date of 21-Mar-16.

Well, that now leaves only 13 days to wait for the latest pronouncement on this long-running saga. At least it is now a "fixed" date.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Surely the best option would be for the irritating little man to go away and let NR get on with building a vital piece of infrastructure. And then name the viaduct 'Whitby viaduct' or something...?

I suggested such a name a while back, though only with my tongue slightly in my cheek!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's a very large concrete structure taking shape north of the "Chat Moss" viaduct in the Middlewood Locks area.
Presumably this will carry a new viaduct for the diverted Chat Moss lines towards the disused platforms at Salford Central, while the existing viaduct carries the Chord lines.

Also if you haven't used Victoria station from the west lately, the panoramic view of the cathedral area from the train is fast disappearing as gigantic new skyscrapers in the old Exchange station area are now in the way.
Like the route through Oxford Road, it is becoming a "concrete and glass canyon".

 

[SodTheDrummer]

I suggested such a name a while back, though only with my tongue slightly in my cheek!

Lol. My tongue is firmly out of my cheek and pointed at Whitby!