Original HST timings on the West of England line.

[GS250]

Hi all.

Was wondering if anyone had any timings for the first few years of HST timings on the services from Paddington to Penzance? Most importantly....how they compared with the local hauled services that they replaced. Obviously the big step up in timings was on the London-Bristol-South Wales routes. The Berks and Hants line was nominally 90mph with a few sections of 100 if memory serves me correct. Obviously acceleration, ability to run consistently at line speed and hill climbing ability would have been the HSTs main advantage.

Cheers for any answers.

 

[hexagon789]

Hi all.

Was wondering if anyone had any timings for the first few years of HST timings on the services from Paddington to Penzance? Most importantly....how they compared with the local hauled services that they replaced. Obviously the big step up in timings was on the London-Bristol-South Wales routes. The Berks and Hants line was nominally 90mph with a few sections of 100 if memory serves me correct. Obviously acceleration, ability to run consistently at line speed and hill climbing ability would have been the HSTs main advantage.

Cheers for any answers.

Accelerations were on average from London for the introduction of HSTs:

Taunton: 15 mins
Plymouth: 18
Penzance: 27

Linespeed was still 90 max when the HSTs were introduced, the work to increase it to 100-110 was only undertaken in 1981-2.

The original pattern was hourly from Paddington at XX:25 from 0725 to 2025, the 0725, 0925, 1025, 1125 (Cornish Riviera), 1325, 1525, 1625 on Fridays, 1725 (Golden Hind) and 1825 extended to Penzance. The 0825 went via Bristol and the 1225 and 1425 remained LHCS.

The "standard" timing to Plymouth was about 3h15 or a few mins longer with two stops - Reading and Exeter, that was by the 0925, 1125, 1325 and 1525. The Plymouth terminators in the even hour slots were about 5-20 mins slower with 4 stops, though some made 6-7 stops such as the two loco-hauled workings and the 0825 via Bristol.

Penzance was just over 5hrs, though the Golden Hind took 5 hours exactly.

Penzance return departure times had no pattern to accommodate variations in stopping pattern to Plymouth:
0518 (Golden Hind, 5hrs to Paddington), 0714, 0903, 1010 (Cornish Riviera), 1203, 1332, 1537, 1623 this allowed
Plymouth a standard departure slot.

From Plymouth services left at XX:00 with 4 exceptions. To prevent the need to stable an extra set in the West and because the first three trains to Penzance have insufficient time to turnaround at Penzance and make it to Plymouth for the standard departure slot, 3 evening trains were off pattern.

The service from Plymouth thus being (*started from Penzance):

0605
0700* Golden Hind
0800 via Bristol
0900*
1000 via Bristol
1100*
1200* Cornish Riviera
1300
1400*
1520*
1600 loco-hauled
1725*
1824*

Services in the up were slightly slower, the fastest being 3h18, one at 3h19 and the rest 3h20 or greater from Plymouth-Penzance. Only one service made 2 stops, the 1332 ex-Penzance, 1520 from Plymouth. The usual was 3 for ex-Penzances, 6 for Plymouth starters.

There were also 3 Paington services, formed by extending 3 Bristol workings - 0920, 1120, 1320. These also forming reliefs to the respective Penzance workings 5 mins later. Returns from Paignton being - 1328, 1515, 1722 going forward from BTM as the 1520, 1710, 1920.

There were other arrangements regarding loco-hauled workings to Newton Abbot and Paignton and rejigging the core HST services such as moving the two-hourly stopping HST to Bristol to an XX:24 path.

 

[GS250]

Excellent information. 10/10 for that!!

Thankyou.

I recall travelling down to Par on the 'Cornish Riviera' in 1985 and it being a class 50. Must have been a stand in?

 

[hexagon789]

Excellent information. 10/10 for that!!

Thankyou.

I recall travelling down to Par on the 'Cornish Riviera' in 1985 and it being a class 50. Must have been a stand in?

That or a relief. Nevertheless after the economic downturn in the early 1980s, the Western Region in particular cut HST diagrams. The West Country in particular saw a number of diagrams revert to LHCS though not the CR or GH.

The freed up WR sets, along with some NE-SW sets, went to the MML to launch HST operation there in 1982.

 

[Magdalia]

I recall travelling down to Par on the 'Cornish Riviera' in 1985 and it being a class 50. Must have been a stand in?

In 1985 the Cornish Riviera was 1140 from Paddington, booked HST, and did not call at Par.

There was a summer dated 1018 Paddington-Penzance that was loco hauled, and that did call at Par. Having started 82 minutes before the Cornish Riviera, it was only 22 minutes earlier arriving at Penzance.

In 1985 the 1340 Paddington-Penzance was also booked to be loco hauled, and called at Par.

 

[Gloster]

Two random comments, both from memory, so not entirely reliable. The first Down Penzance in the early years (07.25 or 07.40 Paddington) ran via Bristol. They soon had the Hind, or at least the Up one, to below 5 hours: 05.18 Penzance-10.15 or 10.16 Paddington or similar. We had instructions to avoid even Distant checking the Hind, even if that involved delaying a stopper by around fifteen minutes.

 

[hexagon789]

Two random comments, both from memory, so not entirely reliable. The first Down Penzance in the early years (07.25 or 07.40 Paddington) ran via Bristol. They soon had the Hind, or at least the Up one, to below 5 hours: 05.18 Penzance-10.15 or 10.16 Paddington or similar. We had instructions to avoid even Distant checking the Hind, even if that involved delaying a stopper by around fifteen minutes.

0725 went via BTM yes.

Indeed, I'm sure by the mid/late-80s and the institution of the 100-110mph upgrades on the Berks and Hants, that the Golden Hind and Cornish Riviera were both down to about 4h45 at one point to Penzance, running fast to Exeter. Then I think the Golden Hind had a Reading pick-up stop put back in and one or two others in Cornwall to cater more for peak traffic flows than offer the absolute fastest journey.

 

[GS250]

In 1985 the Cornish Riviera was 1140 from Paddington, booked HST, and did not call at Par.

There was a summer dated 1018 Paddington-Penzance that was loco hauled, and that did call at Par. Having started 82 minutes before the Cornish Riviera, it was only 22 minutes earlier arriving at Penzance.

In 1985 the 1340 Paddington-Penzance was also booked to be loco hauled, and called at Par.

Its quite possible then that I was utterly fobbed off by my Dad into believing it was the Cornish Riviera! The trip was in April 1985.

That 1018 you speak of...it definitely had comprehensive catering (full English was on offer) and pretty sure it was limited stop to Plymouth. Then again...it may have been that virtually all intercity services offered a full breakfast back then?

This in contrast to the absolutely heaving HST we got on the return which stopped pretty much everywhere and who's buffet ran out by about Exeter. In fairness, it was a Sunday. Also had the dreaded 'mixed' smoking coach of which caused my mum to write a rather poison pen complaint to British Rail. In short...it wasn't a great experience on that particular HST.

 

[Commoner]

Two random comments, both from memory, so not entirely reliable. The first Down Penzance in the early years (07.25 or 07.40 Paddington) ran via Bristol. They soon had the Hind, or at least the Up one, to below 5 hours: 05.18 Penzance-10.15 or 10.16 Paddington or similar. We had instructions to avoid even Distant checking the Hind, even if that involved delaying a stopper by around fifteen minutes.

From May 1980 when the 07.25 ex-Padd became an HST it ran via the B and H. From May 1982 it terminated at Plymouth and from October 1982 ran via Box to Bristol Temple Meads and down to the west country. The 07.25 terminated at Bristol TM from May 1983 when the first HST to Plymouth became the 08.05 Paddington which again ran via Box.

In the first HST timetable in May 1980 the 08.25 Paddington-Plymouth ran from via Badminton, and called at Parkway but ran straight through Temple Meads. This arrangement continued until May 1982 when the 08.25 became a through service to Penzance running via the B and H. It ceased to run from May 1983.

All references are to Monday-Friday working.

 

[43074]

0725 went via BTM yes.

Indeed, I'm sure by the mid/late-80s and the institution of the 100-110mph upgrades on the Berks and Hants, that the Golden Hind and Cornish Riviera were both down to about 4h45 at one point to Penzance, running fast to Exeter. Then I think the Golden Hind had a Reading pick-up stop put back in and one or two others in Cornwall to cater more for peak traffic flows than offer the absolute fastest journey.

May 1988 has the Golden Hind taking 4hr41 from Penzance and 3hr from Plymouth to Paddington, and the Cornish Riviera 2hr52 to Plymouth and 4hr45 to Penzance. By that time standard departures were at xx50 from Paddington, and no semblence of a regular pattern northbound by this point.

From May 1980 when the 07.25 ex-Padd became an HST it ran via the B and H. From May 1982 it terminated at Plymouth and from October 1982 ran via Box to Bristol Temple Meads and down to the west country. The 07.25 terminated at Bristol TM from May 1983 when the first HST to Plymouth became the 08.05 Paddington which again ran via Box.

In the first HST timetable in May 1980 the 08.25 Paddington-Plymouth ran from via Badminton, and called at Parkway but ran straight through Temple Meads. This arrangement continued until May 1982 when the 08.25 became a through service to Penzance running via the B and H. It ceased to run from May 1983.

All references are to Monday-Friday working.

On the subject of West of England HSTs running via Bristol, from May 1988 the 0950 Paddington - Paignton 'West Country Pullman' reached Bath in 1hr2 and Bristol 1hr17 which I'm pretty sure were the fastest timings achieved by HSTs on the "core" routes before the timetable become more orientated around the flows from Swindon & Reading etc.

 

[hexagon789]

May 1988 has the Golden Hind taking 4hr41 from Penzance and 3hr from Plymouth to Paddington, and the Cornish Riviera 2hr52 to Plymouth and 4hr45 to Penzance.

I wasn't too far out going off memory.

On the subject of West of England HSTs running via Bristol, from May 1988 the 0950 Paddington - Paignton 'West Country Pullman' reached Bath in 1hr2 and Bristol 1hr17 which I'm pretty sure were the fastest timings achieved by HSTs on the "core" routes before the timetable become more orientated around the flows from Swindon & Reading etc.

Pretty good - 103.44mph

 

[GS250]

I believe the early HSTs were supplemented by extra long loco hauled sets on summer Fridays? We're talking load 13 consists here.

I may be wrong but I seem to recall the early days of HSTs on this route especially were beset with overcrowding issues. Possibly a victim of their own success although only having 4 standards didn't help.

 

[hexagon789]

I believe the early HSTs were supplemented by extra long loco hauled sets on summer Fridays? We're talking load 13 consists here.

I may be wrong but I seem to recall the early days of HSTs on this route especially were beset with overcrowding issues. Possibly a victim of their own success although only having 4 standards didn't help.

One of the reasons the WoE sets were the first to be lengthened to 2+8.

There was a parttern of reliefs to.thr three busiest Penzance workings written into the original timetable as I outlined but yes, LHCS reliefs were very much necessary in the summer.

 

[irish_rail]

The "standard" timing to Plymouth was about 3h15 or a few mins longer with two stops - Reading and Exeter, that was by the 0925, 1125, 1325 and 1525. The Plymouth terminators in the even hour slots were about 5-20 mins slower with 4 stops, though some made 6-7 stops such as the two loco-hauled workings and the 0825 via Bristol.

So since the 1970s progress has led to still having a standard 3 hours 15 mins London to Plymouth time. Shame the WofE route can't get some of the lines peed improvements other parts of the network enjoy. No improvement in 45 years is pretty damm poor.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

So since the 1970s progress has led to still having a standard 3 hours 15 mins London to Plymouth time. Shame the WofE route can't get some of the lines peed improvements other parts of the network enjoy. No improvement in 45 years is pretty damm poor.

Yes there has been progress - the 3hrs 15mins was by alternate trains with even hour trains slower. Those have all now been sped up to offer a consistent journey time of 3hrs 15.

 

[irish_rail]

Yes there has been progress - the 3hrs 15mins was by alternate trains with even hour trains slower. Those have all now been sped up to offer a consistent journey time of 3hrs 15.

But when compared with other parts of the network, its pretty much stasis. 45 years and we now have an even service. Woohoo. I've no decent options when I want to travel quickly from Plymouth to London. At least in the past there where services that omitted Taunton. Money needs to be spent on linespeed improvements in Devon, it needs to be found from somewhere even if that means re balancing some of the huge expenditure going on the north of England.

 

[Class800]

But when compared with other parts of the network, its pretty much stasis. 45 years and we now have an even service. Woohoo. I've no decent options when I want to travel quickly from Plymouth to London. At least in the past there where services that omitted Taunton. Money needs to be spent on linespeed improvements in Devon, it needs to be found from somewhere even if that means re balancing some of the huge expenditure going on the north of England.

Taunton is quite an important centre

 

[irish_rail]

Taunton is quite an important centre

Totally agree. But there are virtually no fast trains between Plymouth and London, and that needs to change. Every other "fast" should omit Taunton and Tiverton. But as i said, money needs to be spent on speeding up the Newton Abbot to Plymouth section from 55-60 mph up to circa 90mph.

 

[Gloster]

Even if Tiverton Parkway is omitted (*), Taunton is really much too important a station, both as regards the town itself and as a railhead, to be be skipped. You might just justify one or two trains skipping on peak holiday-travel days, as was the case with the Riviera, in order to concentrate holiday traffic on them. Making every other train just Taunton and Exeter (and possibly Newton Abbot) before Plymouth is probably about the best you can expect.

* While the station was at Tiverton Junction it was just four trains a day in each direction and they were a mish-mash of destinations.

 

[JonathanH]

But as i said, money needs to be spent on speeding up the Newton Abbot to Plymouth section from 55-60 mph up to circa 90mph.

Is it even possible to get the speeds up to 90mph without basically building a new line over that section?

Presumably most of the 'low hanging fruit' has long been dealt with.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I've no decent options when I want to travel quickly from Plymouth to London.

The Hind taking 3 hours flat is a pretty decent option.

 

[Class800]

Totally agree. But there are virtually no fast trains between Plymouth and London, and that needs to change. Every other "fast" should omit Taunton and Tiverton. But as i said, money needs to be spent on speeding up the Newton Abbot to Plymouth section from 55-60 mph up to circa 90mph.

Given pathing requirements where the Reading to Taunton line meets the Bristol to Exeter line, I am not sure anything will be saved by omitting Taunton really.

Even if Tiverton Parkway is omitted (*), Taunton is really much too important a station, both as regards the town itself and as a railhead, to be be skipped. You might just justify one or two trains skipping on peak holiday-travel days, as was the case with the Riviera, in order to concentrate holiday traffic on them. Making every other train just Taunton and Exeter (and possibly Newton Abbot) before Plymouth is probably about the best you can expect.

* While the station was at Tiverton Junction it was just four trains a day in each direction and they were a mish-mash of destinations.

Newton Abbot important for Paignton connections

 

[irish_rail]

The Hind taking 3 hours flat is a pretty decent option.

Its one train. At 0655 in the morning and it is peak fare. Hardly a reasonable option for most. Meanwhile other parts of the UK get hourly super fast services omitting many important locations on route.
Taunton is mentioned, but on the WCML not everything stops at say Rugby. Or Milton Keynes. Similarly on ECML not all trains stop at Peterborough. But on the WofE we are stuck with everything stopping at Taunton and journey times that are no better than the 1970s. Its indefensible really. There's clearly money in the pot, its being thrown at the North , so why can't the south west have a share rather than wasting money on no hopers like Marsh Barton Station or Nice to have projects like Okehampton that really won't make a huge amount of difference to the majority down here.

Is it even possible to get the speeds up to 90mph without basically building a new line over that section?

Presumably most of the 'low hanging fruit' has long been dealt with.

Admittedly I can't be sure. I did have a guy from network rail ride with me a couple of years ago who seemed to think it was doable but that the funding wasn't forthcoming. Certainly 75mph should be pretty straight forward if there was a will.

 

[Taunton]

Accelerations were on average from London for the introduction of HSTs:

Taunton: 15 mins
Plymouth: 18
Penzance: 27

Quite an amount of the London to Taunton saving was just on the initial stretch to Reading, doing 125mph, plus the better acceleration to get up to line speed.

The trivial differential between Taunton and Plymouth is surprising, because of the superior climbing ability on the various gradients, especially Dainton, which I would think would be most of the 3 minute difference on its own.

Living in London and travelling out on the first morning express to Taunton, for some years this routed via Bristol, and pretty much all the speed advantage was lost.

 

[GS250]

Totally agree. But there are virtually no fast trains between Plymouth and London, and that needs to change. Every other "fast" should omit Taunton and Tiverton. But as i said, money needs to be spent on speeding up the Newton Abbot to Plymouth section from 55-60 mph up to circa 90mph.

Does anything run fast these days? Ie London-Reading-Exeter-Newton Abbott-Plymouth.

I had a nagging feeling that the introduction of the IET's would result in a less ambitious but more consistent timetable. Plus...that the Pullman catering would quietly be retired. I believe the latter hasn't happened but its certainly been scaled down from a few years ago.

 

[irish_rail]

Does anything run fast these days? Ie London-Reading-Exeter-Newton Abbott-Plymouth.

I had a nagging feeling that the introduction of the IET's would result in a less ambitious but more consistent timetable. Plus...that the Pullman catering would quietly be retired. I believe the latter hasn't happened but its certainly been scaled down from a few years ago.

I don't think there's anything as quick as that no. Used to be, but the 1206 off Padd was too popular so I guess that's why the extra stops where added to spread the demand.
My argument is that the WofE line is comparable really only to the two anglo Scottish routes in terms of journey times and most people doing a long slog (discount XCs long distance trains where many are making shorter journies).
Both anglo Scottish routes have trains that are limited stop . I feel GWR deserves the same.

 

[43074]

Does anything run fast these days? Ie London-Reading-Exeter-Newton Abbott-Plymouth.

I had a nagging feeling that the introduction of the IET's would result in a less ambitious but more consistent timetable. Plus...that the Pullman catering would quietly be retired. I believe the latter hasn't happened but its certainly been scaled down from a few years ago.

On a weekday the 0637 Paddington to Penzance calls Reading, Taunton, Exeter, Plymouth (3hrs) and onwards to Penzance so there is a 3 hour Plymouth to London timing in both directions.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Does anything run fast these days? Ie London-Reading-Exeter-Newton Abbott-Plymouth.

I had a nagging feeling that the introduction of the IET's would result in a less ambitious but more consistent timetable. Plus...that the Pullman catering would quietly be retired. I believe the latter hasn't happened but its certainly been scaled down from a few years ago.

The up Newquay on summer Saturdays is non stop Exeter to Reading

 

[stuu]

Its one train. At 0655 in the morning and it is peak fare. Hardly a reasonable option for most. Meanwhile other parts of the UK get hourly super fast services omitting many important locations on route.
Taunton is mentioned, but on the WCML not everything stops at say Rugby. Or Milton Keynes. Similarly on ECML not all trains stop at Peterborough. But on the WofE we are stuck with everything stopping at Taunton and journey times that are no better than the 1970s. Its indefensible really. There's clearly money in the pot, its being thrown at the North , so why can't the south west have a share rather than wasting money on no hopers like Marsh Barton Station or Nice to have projects like Okehampton that really won't make a huge amount of difference to the majority down here.

Increasing the speeds west of Newton Abbot would mean a completely new alignment, through difficult terrain. That's not going to be cheap - £50-£100m per mile and probably more. I can't see any colour of government spending that sort of money.

 

[Magdalia]

Its quite possible then that I was utterly fobbed off by my Dad into believing it was the Cornish Riviera! The trip was in April 1985.

That 1018 you speak of...it definitely had comprehensive catering (full English was on offer) and pretty sure it was limited stop to Plymouth. Then again...it may have been that virtually all intercity services offered a full breakfast back then?

This in contrast to the absolutely heaving HST we got on the return which stopped pretty much everywhere and who's buffet ran out by about Exeter. In fairness, it was a Sunday. Also had the dreaded 'mixed' smoking coach of which caused my mum to write a rather poison pen complaint to British Rail. In short...it wasn't a great experience on that particular HST.

April 1985 is before the annual timetable change, and outside the summer season.

I had overlooked the 0940 Paddington-Penzance, which was loco hauled in both 1984 and 1985 timetables. This had a restaurant car in 1984 but not 1985. It called at Par at 1426. Given that you remember Full English Breakfast being on offer, I think that was probably your train.

And apologies for taking a day to reply!