Orion high speed logistics letting the train take the strain.

[Lister101]

Ive been saying this for years, use stations as logistics destinations out of hours, especiallyin bigger cities.

High speed UK rail freight service aims to overtake trucks for logistics

Orion wants to use converted passenger trains for express cargo deliveries

amp.ft.com

The ageing electric passenger train that pulled into London’s Euston station on the evening of July 7 initially looked unremarkable. But, when the doors slid open, the new arrival’s revolutionary potential became evident.

The interior of the train, operated by Orion High Speed Logistics, had been stripped of seats and fitted with metal floors and equipment to hold wheeled cages full of retailers’ stock. Minutes after arriving, the cages were being hauled out of the station and into central London on bikes powered by a mixture of human and battery power.

These events illustrate the possibilities presented by Orion, part of a company called Rail Operations Group. It hopes that a fleet of converted, 100mph passenger trains can exploit the trend towards decarbonisation to compete in new marketsfor UK rail.

 

[Darandio]

Ive been saying this for years, use stations as logistics destinations out of hours, especiallyin bigger cities.

But you forgot to tell us, it's your first post!

 

[YorkshireBear]

I saw this article today. I hope it does start as planned in November, I couldn't find a recent update on a thread here. I know originally they targeted September.

If the industry gets this right, it could be an absolute game changer.

 

[65477]

The ROG web site says Jan 2022 for start of services

https://orion.railopsgroup.co.uk/#timeline

2022​

January​

2022 onwards: scaling across more routes as more units enter the service

 

[Darandio]

The ROG web site says Jan 2022 for start of services

https://orion.railopsgroup.co.uk/#timeline

That fixed timeline has been there since 2020 but the article does state they hope to start this month.

 

[jfowkes]

I'm hoping for a timelapse video of the first unloading. I'd love to see how it's done in practice.

All the little details like how many people they need, where the empty cages go, where the ramps are stored, all that kind of stuff.

Also hoping for someone like Geoff Marshall to do a YouTube video on it.

 

[Bertie the bus]

The ROG web site says Jan 2022 for start of services

https://orion.railopsgroup.co.uk/#timeline

It doesn't. It says more services from 2022. More means they would already be running some by then.

May be of relevance - 319373 has been dragged by a 57 to Shieldmuir tonight and is currently heading back to Crewe. No idea if it is being dragged back or running solo. There have been many paths for runs north of Crewe in recent weeks but as far as I know this is the first to actually run. Possibly an indication that something will happen soon.

 

[Master29]

Ive been saying this for years, use stations as logistics destinations out of hours, especiallyin bigger cities.

High speed UK rail freight service aims to overtake trucks for logistics

Orion wants to use converted passenger trains for express cargo deliveries

amp.ft.com

How can you if this is your first post?

 

[Speed43125]

How can you if this is your first post?

It says how many messages anyones posted in their profile on the left.

 

[Mugby]

How can you if this is your first post?

He's been saying it for years but not necessarily on these forums. Does it really matter?

 

[YorkshireBear]

He's been saying it for years but not necessarily on these forums. Does it really matter?

Great welcome for a new member isn't it!

 

[deltic]

There was a longer FT article which stated that they were struggling with the economics of the route as while they could easily fill a London to Scotland train they couldnt get sufficient backload. Question for me is how do they deal with the loading and unloading and what do those staff do for the rest of their shift.

 

[Nicholas43]

I've been saying this for years, use stations as logistics destinations out of hours, especially in bigger cities.

High speed UK rail freight service aims to overtake trucks for logistics

Orion wants to use converted passenger trains for express cargo deliveries

amp.ft.com

Welcome Lister101, and thanks for posting this, also welcome, report.

 

[strawbrick]

Those of a certain age will recall that once upon a time you could take a parcel to the local British Rail station and it would be delivered quite quickly to a station near to the intended recipient usually for collection, but some large cities offered an onward delivery service to the door.

The parcels were not carried on dedicated trains but on normal service trains, in an area know as the Guard's Compartment under the watchful eye of a British Railway employee with the job title of Guard.

If a direct service was not available then the parcel would be transferred to an ongoing service at an intermediate station, indeed I once sent a parcel from Berkhamsted to Wick and it arrived within the day. Parcels for the stations not on a local route were taken to London and transferred between appropriate London terminal by a small fleet of vehicles.

The service was known as Red Star.

Happy days!

 

[swt_passenger]

Those of a certain age will recall that once upon a time you could take a parcel to the local British Rail station and it would be delivered quite quickly to a station near to the intended recipient usually for collection, but some large cities offered an onward delivery service to the door.

The parcels were not carried on dedicated trains but on normal service trains, in an area know as the Guard's Compartment under the watchful eye of a British Railway employee with the job title of Guard.

If a direct service was not available then the parcel would be transferred to an ongoing service at an intermediate station, indeed I once sent a parcel from Berkhamsted to Wick and it arrived within the day. Parcels for the stations not on a local route were taken to London and transferred between appropriate London terminal by a small fleet of vehicles.

The service was known as Red Star.

Happy days!

So efficient it collapsed completely in the face of well organised private sector road parcel distribution. It won’t be coming back no matter how much people hope. I can’t see Orion doing much either.

 

[XAM2175]

The service was known as Red Star.

So efficient it collapsed completely in the face of well organised private sector road parcel distribution. It won’t be coming back no matter how much people hope. I can’t see Orion doing much either.

It couldn't even survive having its own costs allocated to it during sectorisation.

 

[jfowkes]

In my mind we (the collective, societal we) have start considering the carbon cost of logistics as being more important than economic cost or time efficiencies. We should be prepared to sacrifice those things if we can significantly reduce the carbon cost of getting stuff from A to B. Schemes like Orion Logistics can be a part of that.

 

[strawbrick]

It couldn't even survive having its own costs allocated to it during sectorisation.

Given that the stations, the trains and the staff were already being paid for I cannot see how the marginal costs could have made it unprofitable. I would suggest that the Wikipedia entry on Red Star gives a more accurate reason for the demise.

I would suggest that there can be no doubt that it was ultimately doomed by the sectorisation of the railways when the concept of a national railway network was destroyed.

 

[jon0844]

Now that we're delivering so many goods, I can't see why these ideas wouldn't work - using already available paths in the day/night. You have the Royal Mail train(s) so why not others carrying parcels or goods from one distribution point to another?

A lot has changed from years ago, and this isn't about wanting to send the odd parcel on a passenger train. You can imagine the risk of theft/damage and the need to scan/search packages before mixing with passengers. What worked or didn't work years ago doesn't really apply now, so it probably isn't even worth making any comparisons.

 

[XAM2175]

Given that the stations, the trains and the staff were already being paid for I cannot see how the marginal costs could have made it unprofitable. I would suggest that the Wikipedia entry on Red Star gives a more accurate reason for the demise.

That's exactly why it couldn't survive as an independent business sector: the majority of its costs were hidden in the overheads of other BR sectors. The idea that it was a perfectly healthy and viable business all through the '90s that just happened to be totally destroyed by privatisation before post-Hatfield disruption delivered the coup de grâce is fanciful.

I would suggest that there can be no doubt that it was ultimately doomed by the sectorisation of the railways when the concept of a national railway network was destroyed.

I think you might be trying to refer to "privatisation" here.

 

[whoosh]

Red Star:

I can remember someone I worked with speaking about it. He used to work at a station between Tunbridge Wells and Hastings.
Many customers used to come along with a parcel to be delivered to one of the other stations on the line, knowing it would likely be placed on a train pretty soon and be sent on it's way. This was until a new Manager got involved and insisted the parcels took up space in a room on the station as they hadn't been sent 'Express Delivery' (or equivalent) - the customers had gone for the cheaper non-guaranteed option, and so this Manager made sure they were guaranteed to wait until the next day unless they'd been sent at the higher rate.

Massive loss of business suddenly. A decent service for the customer, where it wasn't guaranteed to be sent straight away same day, but in reality likely, was suddenly changed to be deliberately awkward.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

That's exactly why it couldn't survive as an independent business sector: the majority of its costs were hidden in the overheads of other BR sectors. The idea that it was a perfectly healthy and viable business all through the '90s that just happened to be totally destroyed by privatisation before post-Hatfield disruption delivered the coup de grâce is fanciful.

There's a lot of devil in the detail here: What really matters is what the additional cost is of running the parcel service, compared to running the rail service without a parcel service: If it was a case of, staff had to be employed anyway, and handling the Red Star parcels just meant that those staff spent more time doing stuff when they'd otherwise be twiddling their thumbs, then the extra cost of the parcels in those cases is basically zero, and trying to sectorize out the costs is going to give a misleading result. On the other hand, if more staff actually had to be employed or staff had to work longer hours or some other expense was incurred on account of the parcels, then that is a legitimate cost of running the parcels service.

I suspect that which it is is largely unknowable now. And, as @jon0844 says, the situation would be very different today anyway.

 

[swt_passenger]

There's a lot of devil in the detail here: What really matters is what the additional cost is of running the parcel service, compared to running the rail service without a parcel service: If it was a case of, staff had to be employed anyway, and handling the Red Star parcels just meant that those staff spent more time doing stuff when they'd otherwise be twiddling their thumbs, then the extra cost of the parcels in those cases is basically zero, and trying to sectorize out the costs is going to give a misleading result. On the other hand, if more staff actually had to be employed or staff had to work longer hours or some other expense was incurred on account of the parcels, then that is a legitimate cost of running the parcels service.

I suspect that which it is is largely unknowable now. And, as @jon0844 says, the situation would be very different today anyway.

Well today the RMT would probably object to the additional work, responsibility or risk…

 

[Dave W]

Presumably in "ye olde days", one would collect a parcel from the station themselves. Perhaps this felt old fashioned a decade ago, but now every off licence owner and his dog (amongst others) operate as an Amazon collection point - could certain railway stations perform the same function again?

 

[Sm5]

The only way I see a new “Red Star” is an Amazon sized budget to do it.

I’m going to try to paint a rosy picture here..

Having a 319 doing an all stations up a line at night, stopping for 20 minutes each to unload a cage, then unpack a cage and reload the empty cage…

Alternatively you could offload a cage with a body and depart leaving them to it.. then return to pick them up later (starts getting resource intensive).

So maybe alternative is to no take the cage at all..
take a pre-loaded Amazon locker, filled at the warehouse, off load the whole thing and take back the empty ?

I actually dont think people will object to the 1930’s days of walking down to the goods depot to pick it up, and a local enterprise of local delivery might kick off.

However…

its still cheaper to load up at a hub drive it to a smaller hub, and off load it to a bunch of white van mans to do the last mile.
Unless the government taxes HGVs for carbon emissions, It wont change.
One way that transport is going to be empty, and empty trains cost more than empty lorries.

 

[hwl]

There was a longer FT article which stated that they were struggling with the economics of the route as while they could easily fill a London to Scotland train they couldn't get sufficient backload.

I'd expect Scotland - London to be easier to fill given where many of the Amazon warehouses are!

 

[contrex]

Presumably in "ye olde days", one would collect a parcel from the station themselves.

In the 1950s and early 60s, on a Friday, my grandma in Castle Donington would sometimes put a (newly dead, plucked) chicken in a cardboard box, tie it up with string, put a label on it, and take it to Sawley Junction (now called Long Eaton) and pop it on a train for St Pancras. She then rang my dad at work, and he'd pick it up when the train arrived. Roast for Sunday dinner.

 

[furnessvale]

One way that transport is going to be empty, and empty trains cost more than empty lorries.

Not sure why a train that replaced 30 loaded HGVs heading north, presumably because it is cheaper, should magically become more expensive to run empty southbound than the 30 empty HGVs it replaces.

 

[Grumpy Git]

I received a few items by Red Star in the late 80's / early 90's.

I found it a great service and not expensive either.

 

[bussnapperwm]

Not sure why a train that replaced 30 loaded HGVs heading north, presumably because it is cheaper, should magically become more expensive to run empty southbound than the 30 empty HGVs it replaces.

Because most of those HGVs would have something to return, e.g. Tesco lorries delivering empty crates etc