OSIs of interest

[RJ]

I've been looking at the official Tube map (the version with NR lines included) which shows where all Out of Station Interchanges are in London. Given the rule whereby travel by bus breaks OSIs, a couple of them surprised me;

Bromley North to Bromley South
Kent House to Clock House

The first one in particular is a long walk and with almost a dozen buses running between them, I wonder if there is any facility in place for a special OSI which allows the use of a bus.

One thing I did note was the lack of an OSI between Warren Street and Euston Square. Outside of Central London, the majority of OSIs are in the north eastern quadrant of London. I wonder if they are well used and if they go some way towards explaining the relative paucity of orbital bus routes in this part of London.

I like random bits of trivia about London's transport network and also had a look at the route validators which are also shown on the map.

There is one in Zone 4 (Richmond) and one in Zone 5 (Rayners Lane.)

Route validators are primarily advertised as a way to save money on routes that are defaulted to pass through Zone 1. In the case of those validators though, can they be used to alter fares where the default route is not passing through Zone 1?

Use Tolworth to Kew Gardens for example. The default route appears to be priced for a Zone 2-5 fare, but a reasonable route exists involving Zones 4-6, NR Only via New Malden and Richmond which is not shown in the Single Fare Finder. Are the pink readers not set up to calculate other zones that can be avoided other than Zone 1?

In a similar vein, the default fare for Tolworth to Richmond is for Zones 2-5, despite a single change being available at Raynes Park allowing a journey passing through Zones 4-6, which is cheaper. Reasonable?

Whilst I'm here, the dual zoning of Hoxton intrigues me. From what I can see, being in Zone 1 only benefits people whose journey is Hoxton to Shoreditch High Street and vice versa. I say so as there are no OSIs or interchanges at either station which would affect fares for anyone travelling from anywhere else. Neither are there nearby stations that are dual zoned (looking at Whitechapel here) so I can't see any obvious impact for anyone travelling from anywhere else in Zone 1. There tends to be a reason for everything - any ideas about this one?

 

[MikeWh]

I've been looking at the official Tube map (the version with NR lines included) which shows where all Out of Station Interchanges are in London. Given the rule whereby travel by bus breaks OSIs, a couple of them surprised me;

Bromley North to Bromley South
Kent House to Clock House

The first one in particular is a long walk and with almost a dozen buses running between them, I wonder if there is any facility in place for a special OSI which allows the use of a bus.

http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/map/bromley-north-to-bromley-south/

Just over half a mile along mainly pedestrianised roads. No special facility to use a bus. Probably not used much either, to be honest.

One thing I did note was the lack of an OSI between Warren Street and Euston Square.

Yes, I agree that this could be a good idea.

I like random bits of trivia about London's transport network and also had a look at the route validators which are also shown on the map.

There is one in Zone 4 (Richmond) and one in Zone 5 (Rayners Lane.)

Route validators are primarily advertised as a way to save money on routes that are defaulted to pass through Zone 1. In the case of those validators though, can they be used to alter fares where the default route is not passing through Zone 1?

Use Tolworth to Kew Gardens for example. The default route appears to be priced for a Zone 2-5 fare, but a reasonable route exists involving Zones 4-6, NR Only via New Malden and Richmond which is not shown in the Single Fare Finder. Are the pink readers not set up to calculate other zones that can be avoided other that Zone 1?

They are, but in this case I'd say that the infrequency of trains via Kingston compared to via Clapham Junction rules the route out. Plus, both routes go via Richmond, so you'd need another way to tell them apart.

Whilst I'm here, the dual zoning of Hoxton intrigues me. From what I can see, being in Zone 1 only benefits people whose journey is Hoxton to Shoreditch High Street and vice versa. I say so as there are no OSIs or interchanges at either station which would affect fares for anyone travelling from anywhere else. Neither are there nearby stations that are dual zoned (looking at Whitechapel here) so I can't see any obvious impact for anyone travelling from anywhere else in Zone 1. There tends to be a reason for everything - any ideas about this one?

Yes. If Hoxton was solely zone 2 it would mean that the cheapest peak fare from Shoreditch High Street was 2 zone.

 

[bb21]

Bromley North to Bromley South
Kent House to Clock House

The first one in particular is a long walk and with almost a dozen buses running between them, I wonder if there is any facility in place for a special OSI which allows the use of a bus.

I suspect that one of the reasons why such a special facility has not been introduced is that it adds another layer of complication. We all know that touching a bus reader breaks an OSI. If a passenger wishes to break the OSI at Bromley North then continue on from Bromley South, what would he need to do if touching on a bus does not cancel it and he does not wish to hang around for however long is required?

 

[MikeWh]

Example using Rayners Lane:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/f...ernate&on=Acton+Town&dn=Wembley+Park&ft=Adult

Example using Richmond:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/f...National+Rail]&dn=Willesden+Junction&ft=Adult

 

[bicbasher]

I've walked between the two Bromley stations, which can be done in 10 mins or so walking along the High Street and East Street, which as mentioned above is mainly pedestrianised. You may even have time to pop into the shopping centre!

 

[MikeWh]

I've walked between the two Bromley stations, which can be done in 10 mins or so walking along the High Street and East Street, which as mentioned above is mainly pedestrianised. You may even have time to pop into the shopping centre!

Yes, the OSI is 30 minutes in each direction and through the Glades can be a useful diversion if the weather is inclement.

 

[RJ]

http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/map/bromley-north-to-bromley-south/

Just over half a mile along mainly pedestrianised roads. No special facility to use a bus. Probably not used much either, to be honest.


Yes, I agree that this could be a good idea.


They are, but in this case I'd say that the infrequency of trains via Kingston compared to via Clapham Junction rules the route out. Plus, both routes go via Richmond, so you'd need another way to tell them apart.

Fair enough - pretty much answers my queries.

Yes. If Hoxton was solely zone 2 it would mean that the cheapest peak fare from Shoreditch High Street was 2 zone.

There is now a flat fare of £2.10 at any time between the two. Though I'm certain that when the line opened, the disparity for a single fare between Zone 1/1 and Zone 1/2 was a maximum of 10p. Seems to be quite some measure to go to for the sake of journeys from one station, which is why I wonder if there was some other more significant reason for this. Perhaps an OSI (from Liverpool Street perhaps?) that hasn't come to fruition, or some proposal to dual zone Whitechapel?

Inexplicably, the Single Fare Finder shows a flat Anytime fare of £2.10 from Dalston/Haggerston stations in Zone 2 to Shoreditch High Street.

Example using Rayners Lane:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/f...ernate&on=Acton+Town&dn=Wembley+Park&ft=Adult

Example using Richmond:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/f...National+Rail]&dn=Willesden+Junction&ft=Adult

Thanks for those. I think St Margarets to Willesden Junction via Kew Gardens is a more reasonable default route than via Putney!

Yes, the OSI is 30 minutes in each direction and through the Glades can be a useful diversion if the weather is inclement.

I walked down Bromley High Street for the first time in years quite recently, saddened to see The Glades is no longer called The Glades!

 

[MikeWh]

There is now a flat fare of £2.10 at any time between the two. Though I'm certain that when the line opened, the disparity for a single fare between Zone 1/1 and Zone 1/2 was a maximum of 10p. Seems to be quite some measure to go to for the sake of journeys from one station, which is why I wonder if there was some other more significant reason for this. Perhaps an OSI (from Liverpool Street perhaps?) that hasn't come to fruition, or some proposal to dual zone Whitechapel?

Inexplicably, the Single Fare Finder shows a flat Anytime fare of £2.10 from Dalston/Haggerston stations in Zone 2 to Shoreditch High Street.

Standard TfL zone 1-2 peak is £2.80. This is a special, so I've no idea what benefit is still gained from Hoxton being dual zoned.

Thanks for those. I think St Margarets to Willesden Junction via Kew Gardens is a more reasonable default route than via Putney!

But maybe not via Clapham Junction!

I walked down Bromley High Street for the first time in years quite recently, saddened to see The Glades is no longer called The Glades!

Really? Shows how long it is since i've been there.

 

[RJ]

I suspect that one of the reasons why such a special facility has not been introduced is that it adds another layer of complication. We all know that touching a bus reader breaks an OSI. If a passenger wishes to break the OSI at Bromley North then continue on from Bromley South, what would he need to do if touching on a bus does not cancel it and he does not wish to hang around for however long is required?

Quite a few on here will know this, but does the average punter? I suspect in this scenario and perhaps New Cross Gate to New Cross, the benefits for passengers would be greater than the disbenefit for those wanting to break the OSI. After reading about the wizardary the technicians do with aliasing, automatic self completion and the like for the sake of reducing incomplete journeys, I'm sure it could be done!

I'd only deliberately break one if I was laying over at an interchange for a while and wanted to avoid the dreaded double maximum fare charge after resuming and completing my journey.

 

[bicbasher]

I walked down Bromley High Street for the first time in years quite recently, saddened to see The Glades is no longer called The Glades!

Indeed, it's now called intu Bromley. :roll:

Sadly, chain names for shopping centre's is now as common as it is for shops and radio and tv stations these days.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Quite a few on here will know this, but does the average punter? I suspect in this scenario and perhaps New Cross Gate to New Cross, the benefits for passengers would be greater than the disbenefit for those wanting to break the OSI.

The walk between the two New Cross stations is pretty straight forward walking along the same side of the road, although I'd be tempted to use another Oyster card to make the short journey in the direction of New Cross station from NXG, although in reality I'd rather pay the zone 1 premium and travel via London Bridge, especially if it's raining heavily.

 

[RJ]

Standard TfL zone 1-2 peak is £2.80. This is a special, so I've no idea what benefit is still gained from Hoxton being dual zoned.

I didn't realise that London Overground switches between TfL Only or NR Only, depending on which is cheaper. Journeys on the ELL which cross Shoreditch High Street appear to be charged at the Zone 1-2 NR Only rate, which is cheaper than the corresponding TfL only rate.

Still doesn't help with why Dalston Junction, Haggerston, Whitechapel and Wapping to Shoreditch High Street are charged at the Zone 1 TfL Only rate. The first four are all Zone 2 stations. They don't appear to be dual zoned for journeys to any station other than Shoreditch High Street. Again, there must be a reason for this. Perhaps as some sort of compromise for Shoreditch locals who would otherwise have been penalised as their old station was in Zone 2?

 

[tractakid]

I'm fairly certain the longest OSI walking wise is West Ruislip to Ickenham. 0.7 miles.

I have been looking at the allowed time for OSIs, some of them seem inconsistent. I understand OSIs that finish at a NR station often have a big chunk of time added to allow waiting for a platform announcement, so i'm not going on about this.

Comparing OSIs that finish at a LU station, the longest interchange time allowed is 30 minutes. Understandable then that this is the allotted time for the Ru-icky change, but why is it also the permitted time for Putney to East Putney, which is 0.3 miles?

 

[MikeWh]

I'm fairly certain the longest OSI walking wise is West Ruislip to Ickenham. 0.7 miles.

I have been looking at the allowed time for OSIs, some of them seem inconsistent. I understand OSIs that finish at a NR station often have a big chunk of time added to allow waiting for a platform announcement, so i'm not going on about this.

Comparing OSIs that finish at a LU station, the longest interchange time allowed is 30 minutes. Understandable then that this is the allotted time for the Ru-icky change, but why is it also the permitted time for Putney to East Putney, which is 0.3 miles?

It sort of depends on when the OSI was introduced and what is involved. Generally OSIs which involve walking along the street allow 30 minutes, although some are 20/25. Ending at a NR concourse is almost always 40, while walking between two stations on the same site is usually 20. I guess they allow a little time to use conveniences, which possibly explains why Putney is 30. I'm not sure whether 10 is the minimum setting, but if they could do less then Waterloo East to Southwark should be as little as possible given that there is nothing of any interest between the two gatelines.

 

[CNash]

If you want to take a bus without breaking your OSI, you can always use a contactless payment card if you've got one, or another Oyster. The only problem is that your bus journey isn't then counted as part of your daily cap for your main Oyster...

 

[greatkingrat]

Still doesn't help with why Dalston Junction, Haggerston, Whitechapel and Wapping to Shoreditch High Street are charged at the Zone 1 TfL Only rate. The first four are all Zone 2 stations. They don't appear to be dual zoned for journeys to any station other than Shoreditch High Street. Again, there must be a reason for this. Perhaps as some sort of compromise for Shoreditch locals who would otherwise have been penalised as their old station was in Zone 2?

It has always been the case that certain short journeys that cross a zone boundary have been charged as only one zone. This is not unique to LO, for example Caledonian Road - Russell Square, Kennington - London Bridge, Holland Park - Queensway are all charged at the Zone 1 only rate.

 

[Be3G]

Still doesn't help with why Dalston Junction, Haggerston, Whitechapel and Wapping to Shoreditch High Street are charged at the Zone 1 TfL Only rate. The first four are all Zone 2 stations. They don't appear to be dual zoned for journeys to any station other than Shoreditch High Street. Again, there must be a reason for this. Perhaps as some sort of compromise for Shoreditch locals who would otherwise have been penalised as their old station was in Zone 2?

Yes, precisely. greatkingrat is correct, of course, but I believe the short-journey benefit was expanded slightly on the ELL because it was originally intended that Shoreditch High Street was going to be a zone 2 station (to replace the old one like you say), but TfL had to concede to making it zone 1 as someone (the DfT?) was worried that it'd take too much revenue from services in to Liverpool Street otherwise. The new station is closer to the city than the old one, so considering the price difference between (say) a 2–6 and 1–6 travelcard season, they would have probably been right.

By the way, which map have you been looking at? I thought this was the official tube and rail map, but it shows neither the Bromley OSI nor the locations of pink validators.

 

[bicbasher]

Yes, precisely. greatkingrat is correct, of course, but I believe the short-journey benefit was expanded slightly on the ELL because it was originally intended that Shoreditch High Street was going to be a zone 2 station (to replace the old one like you say), but TfL had to concede to making it zone 1 as someone (the DfT?) was worried that it'd take too much revenue from services in to Liverpool Street otherwise. The new station is closer to the city than the old one, so considering the price difference between (say) a 2–6 and 1–6 travelcard season, they would have probably been right.

I believe the SHS Zone 1 allocation was also to protect Southern's revenue also when the ELL was extended along what is also into their franchise area.

 

[34D]

If you want to take a bus without breaking your OSI, you can always use a contactless payment card if you've got one, or another Oyster. The only problem is that your bus journey isn't then counted as part of your daily cap for your main Oyster...

This is indeed a concern. What happens if someone who took a bus called the helpline?