Out of date railcard

[mazza887]

Hello, I just got the 10:30 train from Bath Spa to Bristol Temple Meads today - 7th June. The train operator is Great Western Railway.

I bought two day returns with a two together railcard with my husband. When the train ticket officer came down the train to check tickets, she asked to see our railcard. I pulled it up on my phone and it said it expired on the 23rd May 2025. I said oh sorry let me buy a new one and she said no you can’t I should fine you now but instead I’ll charge you for new tickets. So she charged us two one way tickets from Bath Spa to Birmingham stations costing a total of £158.20.

We paid it and I renewed my railcard.

Can I please confirm whether I have any recourse to complain or get a refund from this?

 

[nw1]

Not one of the experts here, but I wouldn't complain and I would just accept having to pay full price for the tickets.

Sometimes, if you're unlucky, they threaten prosecution in these kinds of cases, however unreasonable and unfair that sounds.

 

[mazza887]

I didn’t get pay full price though, I was made to pay from Birmingham to Bath instead of Bath to Bristol

 

[father_jack]

A railcard ticket with no or an out of date railcard means no ticket is held. The discounted tickets can be refunded as they were technically unused/unusable. The sale of the new single was the correct process.

However- making an assumption here that you used the Trainline- they will probably try not refund the original tickets saying they were "scanned" by the entry gate and the inspector.

But if you buy a new railcard and use the return portions it may be less than new singles to come back.

 

[Gloster]

Was the ticket that you bought before your journey from Bath to Bristol Temple Meads or Bath to Birmingham Stations?

It is possible that you have got off relatively lightly, i.e. without an investigation and the costs that that would involve.

I am not an expert.

 

[father_jack]

I didn’t get pay full price though, I was made to pay from Birmingham to Bath instead of Bath to Bristol

You didn't say they were split tickets. Your new single for the entire journey is still probably fair.

 

[mazza887]

My tickets cost about £13, if I paid full price without the railcard it would have been £20.

 

[Pushpit]

You are probably feeling quite hard done by here, give the extra cost and the set of events which presumably makes it unlikely you can get a refund on the discounted tickets. But actually this is one of the better outcomes, since the other extreme is being prosecuted for fare evasion. In between there would be out of court settlements and a Penalty Fare, which would have had an extra £50 each. You were also charged the off peak rate rather than Anytime, which cut the costs by half. So I think the ticket inspector probably believed you, and ultimately it's boils down to you not checking.

The Bath versus Bristol bit is confusing. You will see the guidance in the sticky which helps us to give useful advice. Can you confirm exactly what you bought, and exactly what you travelled, otherwise drip fed information may give you the wrong advice.

 

[mazza887]

I am not going to Birmingham. My journey is Bath to Bristol. That’s it. The price was £13 for two off peak day returns with a two together railcard. Without the railcard it was £20. However the train ticket operator said she had to charge us based on where the train ends.

 

[nw1]

I didn’t get pay full price though, I was made to pay from Birmingham to Bath instead of Bath to Bristol

Were you coming from Birmingham?

EDIT: sorry, I see you've answered that.

I'd still just accept it, it's a bit risky trying to claim the money back given that, theoretically, the railway can pursue prosecution in cases like this, however unreasonable that sounds.

 

[father_jack]

I am not going to Birmingham. My journey is Bath to Bristol. That’s it. The price was £13 for two off peak day returns with a two together railcard. Without the railcard it was £20. However the train ticket operator said she had to charge us based on where the train ends.

That's not making sense. Trains from Bath to Bristol (bar one at 0613 in the morning that was discontinued years ago) never end up in Birmingham. Cardiff maybe. Again, did you have split tickets with the other parts of ticket going to Birmingham ?

 

[mazza887]

I don’t know at what point the train goes to Birmingham, whether it came from Birmingham or was ending up at Birmingham but that’s what I’ve been charged for!

 

[father_jack]

Until you clarify the above it's hard to advise.

 

[mazza887]

I didn’t have split tickets. I went to the Bath Spa train station and entered tickets to Bristol into the machine. It was only about a 10-15 min direct journey. I boarded the train in Bath at 10:30

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Saturday at 11:10 ==

Looks like I was actually charged a return ticket to Birmingham

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Saturday at 11:33 ==

This was the journey, I guess it must have started at Birmingham and they have charged me a return from Birmingham to Bath, so it’s like I’ve come from Birmingham and am returning to Birmingham when actually my journey is Bath to Bristol, and returning Bristol to Bath.

 

[AlterEgo]

Could we see the original tickets? It’s bizarre to think you’ve been charged to Birmingham for this.

 

[mazza887]

Here is the original ticket I bought. This is the return as I put the outbound ticket into the machine on arrival to Bristol

 

[nw1]

Just one thought, could the ticket seller have selected "Birmingham" rather than "Bristol" inadvertently? Not sure what the user interface of their ticket machine looks like, but it could be an alphabetically-sorted selectable list of key destinations, I guess, in which case Birmingham could be adjacent to Bristol.

 

[mazza887]

No - I challenged that I said I’m only going to Bristol as I expected the cost to be about £20! And she insisted no she had to charge us from Birmingham and it was her words that it was for the full train journey.

 

[nw1]

No - I challenged that I said I’m only going to Bristol as I expected the cost to be about £20! And she insisted no she had to charge us from Birmingham and it was her words that it was for the full train journey.

Bizarre course of action on their part.

Not an expert here but my gut feeling is that it's risky to pursue as theoretically you were breaking the law by travelling without a valid railcard, even though it was an honest mistake. I'll leave that to other people to offer better advice, though.

 

[mazza887]

I don’t know. She said she could charge us £100 penalty fare each but that she wasn’t going to do that, was just charging us for these new tickets.

 

[nw1]

I don’t know. She said she could charge us £100 penalty fare each but that she wasn’t going to do that, was just charging us for these new tickets.

And why Birmingham I wonder? If it was a GWR train it wouldn't even be going there!

 

[mazza887]

By doing this and not giving me a penalty fare I also have no appeals process

 

[nw1]

By doing this and not giving me a penalty fare I also have no appeals process

Could you have just taken the penalty fare?

 

[mazza887]

I wasn’t really offered the penalty fare, she made out she was doing us a favour though she was very abrupt

 

[skyhigh]

I wonder if it was a Conductor who couldn't actually issue a Penalty Fare so decided to take matters into their own hands by selling a ticket to the rough value of a Penalty Fare (£50 plus the fare due).

I struggle to see any other logic in the actions they took. It's totally bizarre.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I don’t know. She said she could charge us £100 penalty fare each but that she wasn’t going to do that, was just charging us for these new tickets.

Except it would have been £ 50 plus Anytime cost of Bath to Bristol for prompt payment.

 

[AlterEgo]

I wonder if it was a Conductor who couldn't actually issue a Penalty Fare so decided to take matters into their own hands by selling a ticket to the rough value of a Penalty Fare (£50 plus the fare due).

I struggle to see any other logic in the actions they took. It's totally bizarre.

I rather think this is what is likely to have happened.

 

[father_jack]

Go and ask to see someone at Bristol Temple Meads on the way back, there'll be a supervisor or a different RPI on duty. The numbers on the paper ticket photoed above will show who it was issued the new ticket. I still find a lot of things very peculiar with this situation.

 

[nw1]

I rather think this is what is likely to have happened.

The question though is "what was in it for them" (the conductor) by doing this? That's what I don't understand - there seems to have been no advantage to the conductor by following this course of action. It was neither the "by the book" response nor the kindest response to the OP.
If they couldn't sell a Penalty Fare from their machine, why didn't they just sell the OP a pair of full-priced, non-discounted returns to Bristol?

 

[skyhigh]

The question though is "what was in it for them" (the conductor) by doing this?

A feeling of "justice being done"? A bit of commission?

There are a handful of odd characters about at every TOC that would attempt similar things.