Outrage as London tube driver whips up passengers to chant pro-Palestinian slogans

[danm14]

"More Talent Less Limited", the fake Tube announcement YouTuber, has uploaded a video of the chanting seemingly from his perspective, asking "Should I take the blame?", along with a screenshot of some text messages suggesting that he was on the train where the incident took place.

I am now becoming extremely sceptical that this was a driver. It seems a little too coincidental that the man known for making fake Tube announcements just happened to be on the train where this incident happened, videoing it, yet was not involved.

 

[jumble]

It is highly unlikely TFL would not know who is driving a particular train at a particular time. However in order to do this they would need to know exactly which train was involved in the alleged incident. The clip doesn’t show a car number, so in the absence of that there is a reliance on the place and times being highly accurate.

I agree but I would ask how come the people who have whipped up all the outrage have not reported any locations /times ?
There is no evidence what ever that I can see that this is not some clown with a loudhailer going to or coming back from a protest march
It will be interesting to see how this pans out

 

[Busaholic]

Now that Suella Braverman has got involved so as to boost her position with the most boneheaded of Tory MPs plus Sun/Mail/Express readers for when she launches her next leadership bid, this 'story' will have more legs than an octopus. Be sure Sadiq Khan firstly, and the Labour Party secondly, will be declared the villains of the piece by all those people.

 

[thenorthern]

It looks like they haven't officially got to the bottom of who made the announcement. If it was someone using a bullhorn then it would be nice if BTP "had a word" with the individual simply to send a message that using loudspeakers on trains is against railway by-laws.

In regards to announcing the death of the Queen to me that isn't a political message it's announcing what is major breaking news. Back in 2002 before the advent of recorded annoucements I remember being on a Virgin Train and the announcer decided to tell us that England were winning against Denmark in the World Cup 3-0 which I am not sure was justified.

A couple of years ago I remember there was a conductor who stated "Telford Central beware of gypsies and pickpockets" which to me was totally unacceptable as it was a message intended to spread hate.

 

[richa2002]

A couple of years ago I remember there was a conductor who stated "Telford Central beware of gypsies and pickpockets" which to me was totally unacceptable as it was a message intended to spread hate.

"spread hate"? All I see is a presumption of a certain demographic's behaviour which you would have to live under a rock to not think has some validity. Now you are probably thinking "you shouldn't assume everyone of a certain demographic behaves the same way" and that is of course correct, but if you think the guard's comment suggests this, I would say you're being awfully ungenerous to them. For example, say there was a 50/50 chance of Coca Cola killing you, would you think someone saying "beware of Coca Cola" is saying that all Coca Cola kills you? Or is it just sensible advice in the face of an unusually high probability of it causing you trouble?

Whether such an announcement was appropriate for a train is another question but I see no need to use the silly hyperbolic term, "spreading hate". At most it's unprofessional, if TOCs don't wish for such advice to be handed out by their staff.

 

[Falcon1200]

There is no evidence what ever that I can see that this is not some clown with a loudhailer going to or coming back from a protest march

If it was indeed an individual with a loudhailer, surely that would have been audible only in one carriage, rather than throughout the train as with the PA? How it could be established which situation occurred is another matter, of course.

 

[1D54]

A driver has apparently come forward and is being spoken to by the Police this evening according to the BBC

 

[Dstock7080]

A driver has apparently come forward and is being spoken to by the Police this evening according to the BBC

Indeed, now confirmed by other media:

https://www.itv.com/news/london/2023-10-23/tube-driver-suspended-after-leading-pro-palestine-chant-on-train

A Tube driver who led a chant of “free, free Palestine” on a London Underground train on Saturday has been suspended pending further investigation into the incident, Transport for London said.

 

[MCR247]

"spread hate"? All I see is a presumption of a certain demographic's behaviour which you would have to live under a rock to not think has some validity. Now you are probably thinking "you shouldn't assume everyone of a certain demographic behaves the same way" and that is of course correct, but if you think the guard's comment suggests this, I would say you're being awfully ungenerous to them. For example, say there was a 50/50 chance of Coca Cola killing you, would you think someone saying "beware of Coca Cola" is saying that all Coca Cola kills you? Or is it just sensible advice in the face of an unusually high probability of it causing you trouble?

Whether such an announcement was appropriate for a train is another question but I see no need to use the silly hyperbolic term, "spreading hate". At most it's unprofessional, if TOCs don't wish for such advice to be handed out by their staff.

I believe that term is considered to be a slur now, so that is likely why the poster you quoted took issue with it

 

[AndyPJG]

A Driver has now been suspended.

BBC News (London)

Tube driver suspended over pro-Palestinian chant
A Tube driver who appeared to lead a pro-Palestinian chant on a London Underground train has been suspended, Transport for London (TfL) said.
It happened on Saturday as about 100,000 protesters took part in a pro-Palestinian demonstration.
Footage posted online apparently showed the chant being led over the train's speaker system.
The words "free, free" could be heard and passengers responded "Palestine" - a popular chant at protests.
TfL said the driver was suspended while full investigations were under way.
Glynn Barton, TfL's chief operating officer, said: "We have been urgently and thoroughly investigating the footage appearing to show a Tube driver misusing the PA system and leading chants on a Central line train on Saturday.
"A driver has now been identified and suspended whilst we continue to fully investigate the incident in line with our policies and procedures."
The chant was criticised by minister for London Paul Scully who said Tube staff should "focus on the day job" and warned against stoking tension in the capital.
The Israeli Embassy said: "It is deeply troubling to see such intolerance on London's Tubes … public transport should be a place of safety and inclusivity for all."

 

[ScottGallagher]

Whatever happens with the driver , no doubt LU will be reviewing their stance and policy on non essential announcements.

 

[bramling]

Whatever happens with the driver , no doubt LU will be reviewing their stance and policy on non essential announcements.

I would imagine this sort of thing is already covered in TFL’s standards of conduct, in terms either of bringing the company into disrepute, and/or politics in the workplace.

I wish TFL would do as you suggest though.

 

[Bartsimho]

I would imagine this sort of thing is already covered in TFL’s standards of conduct, in terms either of bringing the company into disrepute, and/or politics in the workplace.

I wish TFL would do as you suggest though.

I'd say only use it for Safety Critical or Operational announcements. Anything else should be in the automated pile (Use the PA if that breaks)

 

[Mawkie]

Whatever happens with the driver , no doubt LU will be reviewing their stance and policy on non essential announcements.

They constantly do - the latest diktat is that Train Ops must not use the term beggers in any announcement, and may no longer use the "Beggars and Buskers operate on this train...." automated message.

As I said in a previous post somewhere - I do what they tell me to do coz they pay my bills. I don't have to agree, disagree, or even understand the reason why.

 

[bramling]

They constantly do - the latest diktat is that Train Ops must not use the term beggers in any announcement, and may no longer use the "Beggars and Buskers operate on this train...." automated message.

Anyone know the rationale for this one?

 

[Bartsimho]

Anyone know the rationale for this one?

I could see issues of equating beggars and buskers together as they are very different especially with TfL having performing spaces for buskers but I doubt that's why.
Beggars is probably seen as a negative reflection of homeless people.

 

[Ladder23]

Personal views should remain personal when at work. I fear this driver may be having an awkward meeting with management on Monday.

Rightly so, passengers not participating in this chanting would of felt uncomfortable as it was without the driver adding to it all, can’t believe someone in that position would be silly enough to do that

 

[BostonGeorge]

I am racking my brains over what ASLEF or the RMT's response to this would be. The RMT as a union are sympathetic towards the innocent civilians of Palestine, so this train operator may find some support among individual members for WHAT he said. That being said, the fundamentals of using him using his position to make a political statement to the public is not good. I hope he's unionised to give himself half a chance.

 

[londonteacher]

I am racking my brains over what ASLEF or the RMT's response to this would be. The RMT as a union are sympathetic towards the innocent civilians of Palestine, so this train operator may find some support among individual members for WHAT he said. That being said, the fundamentals of using him using his position to make a political statement to the public is not good. I hope he's unionised to give himself half a chance.

Any reputable union would surely have to be understanding that this was a misuse of the trains PA system - something that there is probably some rules about.

Unfortunately, being unionised should not make a single bit of difference. If the driver is found to be in breach of rules then his job could be on the line. I hope however that instead retraining takes place for the driver as emotions are running high on all sides at the moment.

 

[BostonGeorge]

Unfortunately, being unionised should not make a single bit of difference. If the driver is found to be in breach of rules then his job could be on the line. I hope however that instead retraining takes place for the driver as emotions are running high on all sides at the moment.

Being a union member ALWAYS makes a difference. They will do what they can to save his job - they won't merely look at him as a lost cause, and they will work a few angles to give him the best possible chance. Without any representation he really wouldn't have a prayer.

 

[londonteacher]

Being a union member ALWAYS makes a difference. They will do what they can to save his job - they won't merely look at him as a lost cause, and they will work a few angles to give him the best possible chance. Without any representation he really wouldn't have a prayer.

It would be interesting to hear the union’s arguments to try and support.

I personally don’t think on a train is the right place for any comments like this on either side of the argument to be made. But, if there are no specific rules against it then maybe it needs looking at.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Being a union member ALWAYS makes a difference. They will do what they can to save his job - they won't merely look at him as a lost cause, and they will work a few angles to give him the best possible chance. Without any representation he really wouldn't have a prayer.

Completely agree, and he should have a fair hearing like anyone else should. The trouble for the union is this is not your average disciplinary, its all on video so can't be denied and he acted of his own accord broadcasting to hundreds of people.

 

[bramling]

I am racking my brains over what ASLEF or the RMT's response to this would be. The RMT as a union are sympathetic towards the innocent civilians of Palestine, so this train operator may find some support among individual members for WHAT he said. That being said, the fundamentals of using him using his position to make a political statement to the public is not good. I hope he's unionised to give himself half a chance.

The union are likely to ensure the company follows its disciplinary procedures correctly. That’s probably as far as their stance will go.

It would be interesting to hear the union’s arguments to try and support.

I personally don’t think on a train is the right place for any comments like this on either side of the argument to be made. But, if there are no specific rules against it then maybe it needs looking at.

There will be rules against it, bringing company into disrepute for starters, and almost certainly something about expressing political views.

There was an H&C driver who stopped their train and joined what IIRC was a vigil in respect of Grenfell Tower. To be honest I don’t think that was an anppropriate thing to do either, but at least that wasn’t a political thing. I don’t think any action was taken over that one though.

Unfortunately, being unionised should not make a single bit of difference. If the driver is found to be in breach of rules then his job could be on the line. I hope however that instead retraining takes place for the driver as emotions are running high on all sides at the moment.

High emotions don’t have a place when in charge of a train, no matter how sensitive the issue. One of the reasons train drivers attract a high salary is for exactly that reason, that professionalism is expected 100.0% of the time.

 

[Egg Centric]

Would be disproportionate imo to fire someone over this if a "first offence". He's unlikely to have many transferable skills for an equivalent compensation package so essentially you're screwing with the rest of his life, which should be avoided if possible.

I agree it's deeply inappropriate though.

 

[Bartsimho]

Would be disproportionate imo to fire someone over this if a "first offence". He's unlikely to have many transferable skills for an equivalent compensation package so essentially you're screwing with the rest of his life, which should be avoided if possible.

I agree it's deeply inappropriate though.

Don't know about that. Egregious acts even if they are a first offence should be fireable.

As for transferable skills that shouldn't come into it. The decision on whether to fire someone for an offence or not should never look at if they could get another job.

 

[ComUtoR]

and almost certainly something about expressing political views.

Does having an LGBTQ flag plastered down the side of a train count as a political view ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does having an LGBTQ flag plastered down the side of a train count as a political view ?

It would be inappropriate for a member of staff to place an LGBTQ+ flag down the side of a train themselves.

If it is policy of the operator to paint or vinyl one and that doesn't conflict with any contracts they have in place regarding their operation, that is totally different; the operator can decide policy on such matters, not individual staff members.

If we consider e.g. an independent private bus company (TfL is more complex, of course) the owner of the company would, within the law, be able to decide what to paint or show on their buses even if political (see Mr "Wetherspoon" and his pro-Brexit publicity), but individual drivers would by default not unless the company allows them that.

It's an interesting question as to whether this specific issue may crop up elsewhere - Aylesbury sprung to mind, where most of the local bus operation is run by a set of small companies owned by local Muslim families ("Red *", Vale and Z&S) who may indeed decide to display the Palestinian flag on their buses in solidarity, either painted on or just the flag. I've not been to Aylesbury to see if this is happening or not. Indeed Red Rose does have a small Arabic motif as part of its livery, I don't know for certain what it means, though.

 

[Mawkie]

Does having an LGBTQ flag plastered down the side of a train count as a political view ?

Yes it would.

As does making me drive a train with a red poppy stuck on the front of it, but as @Bletchleyite says, that is within the gift of the transport operator - my own opinions are of no consequence.

For what it's worth, this does seem to be a storm in a tea-cup. Calls for immediate dismissal, and other over the top suggestions are a little silly. If the newspaper accounts are to be believed, then this was a person playing to his crowd, not someone using his train as a political machine, aiming to change the world one announcement at a time.

Some time ago, TfL were producing internal documents telling staff to bring their personalities to their job - in particular in their announcements, but also in the way they wore their hair, showed tattoos, etc. The trouble with allowing this kind of laissez faire approach is where to draw the line - maybe TfL are now discovering this can be a double-edged sword.

 

[jumble]

A Driver has now been suspended.

BBC News (London)

Wow I I called this wrong
However I really believed no Tube Driver could be quite so stupid

 

[1D54]

Wow I I called this wrong
However I really believed no Tube Driver could be quite so stupid

As you said yourself, let's see how this pans out. You as yet have called nothing wrong.