Outrage as London tube driver whips up passengers to chant pro-Palestinian slogans

[ScottGallagher]

Jumping the gun here but generally speaking if a driver did that sort of political announcement and was then suspended or dismissed would any strike action by Aslef be confined to the line that driver works on?

 

[James H]

It's depressing how many news outlets and commentators have jumped straight to the conclusion that it was definitely the driver of the train speaking in the video clip, without applying any caveat or critical thought.

 

[afclondon]

All I know is that it's definitely not a dubbed video like those prank announcement ones, although the possibility of it being a PA system of some sort is still up for debate. I follow the journalist who posted it on twitter, before deleting it a few hours later after realising the driver might face consequences.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Jumping the gun here but generally speaking if a driver did that sort of political announcement and was then suspended or dismissed would any strike action by Aslef be confined to the line that driver works on?

They don't strike in every case, only where it was unjustified. I think if it was the driver it would very much be justified. That said, the left tends to strongly support the Palestinian cause, so maybe not...

 

[Bartsimho]

They don't strike in every case, only where it was unjustified. I think if it was the driver it would very much be justified. That said, the left tends to strongly support the Palestinian cause, so maybe not...

If they strike for this then pretty much all strikes for the next year will be ineffective.

It would be really easy to show that the unions hold antisemitic views and then the public wouldn't care what they are striking over as they would dislike the union heavily.

 

[bramling]

If they strike for this then pretty much all strikes for the next year will be ineffective.

It would be really easy to show that the unions hold antisemitic views and then the public wouldn't care what they are striking over as they would dislike the union heavily.

There is a bit of a misconception that unions would call a strike for something like this. Apart from that this is jumping the gun massively, unions either call strikes as part of the bargaining process, or if they feel a *process* hasn’t been correctly applied. In this situation there would only be a strike if the company didn’t follow its disciplinary process correctly.

 

[bluegoblin7]

It's depressing how many news outlets and commentators have jumped straight to the conclusion that it was definitely the driver of the train speaking in the video clip, without applying any caveat or critical thought.

The same as many forum members on this thread did.

It would be really easy to show that the unions hold antisemitic views and then the public wouldn't care what they are striking over as they would dislike the union heavily.

Just as a point of order, being pro Palestine does not equivocate with being anti Semitic. It's a shame you've fallen for the media's rhetoric on that one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The same as many forum members on this thread did.

Just as a point of order, being pro Palestine does not equivocate with being anti Semitic. It's a shame you've fallen for the media's rhetoric on that one.

Certainly on LBC this morning Andrew Castle accused a guy of anti Semitism who hadn't said a single anti Semitic thing - maybe anti Zionist, but that isn't the same thing. I do wonder if he'll end up leaving LBC as a result, it's happened before for less. If you want to listen to it on the app it was about 0830 ish.

 

[baz962]

The same as many forum members on this thread did.

Just as a point of order, being pro Palestine does not equivocate with being anti Semitic. It's a shame you've fallen for the media's rhetoric on that one.

If and big if it was the driver , I have been wondering the same . They may not be anti Israel , maybe they have family that have been killed or injured in Palestine. I am not taking sides but it could be way more personal than we know.

 

[richa2002]

That's the thing in this particular situation I think. It's not the political statement that's the big problem but the particularly sensitive nature of the Israel/Palestine conflict and I think it's this that people need to focus on. I agree it could have led to anti-Semitic violence and was thus very dangerous.

You can't have rules or regulations based on subjective sensitivity or other such claptrap open to corruption so only the "wrong" views are targetted. You either have a blanket ban on political statements or not.

 

[Gloster]

I am wondering how long before this is going to be turned round and used as part of the anti-Sadiq Khan campaign? No doubt there are already people making unfounded and outrageous claims on social media that will be picked up by the more right-wing parts of the traditional media and reported in any way that can be twisted to be damaging to Khan.

 

[Bartsimho]

I am wondering how long before this is going to be turned round and used as part of the anti-Sadiq Khan campaign? No doubt there are already people making unfounded and outrageous claims on social media that will be picked up by the more right-wing parts of the traditional media and reported in any way that can be twisted to be damaging to Khan.

If the police are seen a limp on the issue it will be used as Khan is their boss.

Some will inevitably connect him to it as well.

 

[MCR247]

IF this was a driver then obviously they took a big risk and they can’t be hugely surprised if it impacts their continued employment.

However, had the announcement been pro the other side, I wonder what the wider response would’ve been? I’m not so much referring to any internal procedures on TfLs part, but would the Met have been getting involved on Twitter and raising with BTP etc? I think not.

 

[nw1]

You can't have rules or regulations based on subjective sensitivity or other such claptrap open to corruption so only the "wrong" views are targetted. You either have a blanket ban on political statements or not.

Blanket bans are inflexible though and could lead to someone sacked merely for having a very light dig at Donald Trump (let's say), which is obviously a very different kettle of fish to "weighing in", in a strident way, on the current conflict and possibly inciting violence against the "other" side.

(And I say this as someone who is pretty outraged by what is going on in Gaza).

 

[Bartsimho]

IF this was a driver then obviously they took a big risk and they can’t be hugely surprised if it impacts their continued employment.

However, had the announcement been pro the other side, I wonder what the wider response would’ve been? I’m not so much referring to any internal procedures on TfLs part, but would the Met have been getting involved on Twitter and raising with BTP etc? I think not.

I think there still would have been a social media flair up regardless of which side it was on. Based on how many people have attended marches for Palestine in the past week they would have been loud about it. There are also several news organisations that would pick it up as well.
At risk of being too political the Met did stop a billboard travelling around London detailing those who were killed in the first attack of this event.

 

[Busaholic]

If the police are seen a limp on the issue it will be used as Khan is their boss.

Some will inevitably connect him to it as well.

Neither Sadiq Khan nor any other Mayor of the past or near future is, in reality, boss of the Metropolitan Police. The Commissioner is their boss, and he/she is appointed by the Home Secretary, admittedly in consultation with the Mayor: there is no guarantee that, in the view of disagreement, the Home Secretary's favoured candidate will not prevail, and this may have happened in the case of the present incumbent.

The Commissioner is accountable in law for exercising police powers and is held to account for the delivery of policing by both the Home Secretary and the Mayor. The Home Secretary is specifically responsible too for the Met's counter-terrorism and other national policing matters entrusted to them, with the Mayor playing no part in these.

In short, London's elected Mayor's real powers are piffling compared to other cities worldwide, particularly as their tax-raising powers are so limited. Blair and Brown made sure that Prescott's obsession didn't achieve much so as to keep Ken Livingstone and his ilk in check.

 

[Gloster]

Neither Sadiq Khan nor any other Mayor of the past or near future is, in reality, boss of the Metropolitan Police. The Commissioner is their boss, and he/she is appointed by the Home Secretary, admittedly in consultation with the Mayor: there is no guarantee that, in the view of disagreement, the Home Secretary's favoured candidate will not prevail, and this may have happened in the case of the present incumbent.

The Commissioner is accountable in law for exercising police powers and is held to account for the delivery of policing by both the Home Secretary and the Mayor. The Home Secretary is specifically responsible too for the Met's counter-terrorism and other national policing matters entrusted to them, with the Mayor playing no part in these.

In short, London's elected Mayor's real powers are piffling compared to other cities worldwide, particularly as their tax-raising powers are so limited. Blair and Brown made sure that Prescott's obsession didn't achieve much so as to keep Ken Livingstone and his ilk in check.

Yes, but it won’t stop the right-wing end of the traditional and social medias (and others) from blaming him for every problem, real or imaginary, with the most tenuous connection to the police. Of course, if the Met. does something right (it must happen, but I can’t think of any examples) that is the genius of Braverman.

 

[jon0844]

If the police are seen a limp on the issue it will be used as Khan is their boss.

Some will inevitably connect him to it as well.

90% of the comments I saw on X after this video mentioned/blamed Sadiq, along with demands for the driver to be sacked (even deported) and the usual rhetoric that London is lost.

Lots of comments come from the USA (well they claim to be, as they're just as likely fake accounts from Russia).

 

[MCR247]

I think there still would have been a social media flair up regardless of which side it was on. Based on how many people have attended marches for Palestine in the past week they would have been loud about it. There are also several news organisations that would pick it up as well.
At risk of being too political the Met did stop a billboard travelling around London detailing those who were killed in the first attack of this event.

I definitely see what you’re saying, and I agree there likely would’ve been a social media ‘flare up’ and perhaps a few news articles would be written as a result which then would go to the train operator for comment.

But that’s not quite what happened here. The Met and BTP got involved very quickly on Twitter, before even the press had picked up on it as a viral news story. And they replied that they would be investigating.

So, whilst we still might’ve ended up with a thread on here about a LU train operator making pro Israel remarks, would it have been a police matter? Absolutely not.

 

[Andyh82]

The train driver in question (assuming it was the train driver) will probably be on Good Morning Britain by about Wednesday giving his side of the story

There will be a load of blown up outrage no doubt, the mayor will get involved, and he’ll be reinstated by the weekend

 

[jon0844]

So, whilst we still might’ve ended up with a thread on here about a LU train operator making pro Israel remarks, would it have been a police matter? Absolutely not.

Why not? Employees have rules they need to abide by for all sorts of things these days, such as social media, and before that I'm sure PAs were included.

I am skeptical as to whether this was the driver and not someone with a bullhorn in just that coach, but if it was the driver then I can expect them to be in trouble.

How could the police and TfL not take interest when this video has gone virtual and sparked some absolutely abhorrent comments and threats?

That would have almost certainly been the case the other way.

 

[MCR247]

Why not? Employees have rules they need to abide by for all sorts of things these days, such as social media, and before that I'm sure PAs were included.

I am skeptical as to whether this was the driver and not someone with a bullhorn in just that coach, but if it was the driver then I can expect them to be in trouble.

How could the police and TfL not take interest when this video has gone virtual and sparked some absolutely abhorrent comments and threats?

That would have almost certainly been the case the other way.

I’m not saying TfL wouldn’t have an interest, they of course would. I’d definitely expect any internal processes to be followed in the same way in either case as they’d be opening themselves up for trouble otherwise. I’m commenting on the police involvement in the initial ‘incident’. FWIW I also doubt it was actually a PA announcement.

Any comments it has sparked is separate to this specifically because both the Met Police and the BTP only ever referred to investigating the initial incident. In fact they said this so early on in reply to the now deleted initial tweet that a lot of the bad comments and tweets hadn’t even been posted yet.

 

[AlbertBeale]

The only "political" announcement I can ever remember on a tube train PA was when the driver of (I think) a Victoria Line service announced the news that Margaret Thatcher had resigned as PM. Almost everyone in the carriage I was in started cheering and applauding...

 

[rmt4ever]

Front page of the Sun today (Mon 23/10/23) :


At least they seem to have got the correct train photo I suppose

 

[Mawkie]

Front page of the Sun View attachment 145258

At least they seem to have got the correct train photo I suppose

That's truly shocking - I had no idea they thought their 'newspaper' was worth 90p...

 

[Turtle]

It’s a bad look for railway staff in safety critical roles to become diverted in this way, regardless of cause, and I feel the same about the ‘entertaining’ drivers who tell jokes/stories over the PA system between stations.

Good post.
When you're at work just stick to work related issues only.

 

[bramling]

Good post.
When you're at work just stick to work related issues only.

Yes I’ve always agreed with this. The PA is essentially a piece of emergency equipment, and its use should be minimised. I always encourage essential and important use only. Unfortunately TFL are the opposite, and go as far as giving awards to drivers for frivolous PA use.

TFL would rather give an award to someone for making a silly PA than someone who comes to work every day and gets on with doing their job well.

 

[jumble]

Front page of the Sun today (Mon 23/10/23) :
View attachment 145258

At least they seem to have got the correct train photo I suppose

So we are supposed to believe
A driver of a train has done this
A group of random people started chanting in support.
TFL's rota for drivers is such a shambles that they do not know who was driving a particular train
The Home Office are so certain that this was a driver that they call it "an insult"

Frankly i think this is a complete load of nonsense

 

[endicomark69@g]

Front page of the Sun today (Mon 23/10/23) :
View attachment 145258

At least they seem to have got the correct train photo I suppose

Something else to blame the Internet for........somehow it still hasn't killed off Der Sturmer.

I would imagine that TfL still have relevant clauses in terms of employment that you undertake NOT to make statements or demonstrations of a political nature while on duty, or while wearing Company Uniform (to/from work etc) in which case if it is the Driver........he's going to have a bad day and deservedly so.

The more level headed in this thread haven't been swayed by any attempts to "what about" as if bias should form part of any judgement - TfL stays out of politics (even when Politics royally screws about with them) and that's in ALL cases. There's no debate and no "tolerance" involved in that, it's simply the position.

If this was some wozzack not employed by TfL looking for clicks and subverting a safety critical function on a moving train I would hope the Met do take and interest and ensure this "person" is forcibly disinclined to do anything this stupid, incendiary and potentially dangerous ever again.

 

[bramling]

So we are supposed to believe
A driver of a train has done this
A group of random people started chanting in support.
TFL's rota for drivers is such a shambles that they do not know who was driving a particular train
The Home Office are so certain that this was a driver that they call it "an insult"

Frankly i think this is a complete load of nonsense

It is highly unlikely TFL would not know who is driving a particular train at a particular time. However in order to do this they would need to know exactly which train was involved in the alleged incident. The clip doesn’t show a car number, so in the absence of that there is a reliance on the place and times being highly accurate.