Over 60 Oyster and Boundary Zone tickets

[Bletchleyite]

I had a boundary Z6 return to Luton Airport Parkway (bought at West Hampstead), using my Over-60 Oyster to get to the boundary.

Is this combination valid on EMR/LNER/Avanti, i.e. Boundary Zone plus Over 60 Oyster? Or are there additional restrictions over e.g. a paper Day Travelcard which unquestionably would be?

(It used to be the case 10-15 years ago or so that a Boundary Zone ticket was only valid on a TOC with two stops inside Zones 1-6, but this changed and is no longer the case, though I forget when)

 

[microrich]

Is this combination valid on EMR/LNER/Avanti, i.e. Boundary Zone plus Over 60 Oyster? Or are there additional restrictions over e.g. a paper Day Travelcard which unquestionably would be?

(It used to be the case 10-15 years ago or so that a Boundary Zone ticket was only valid on a TOC with two stops inside Zones 1-6, but this changed and is no longer the case, though I forget when)

My understanding from the freedom pass website (I believe the restrictions are the same for 60+ oystercard) is that you would not be able to use this combination on EMR or LNER. The website states:

The Freedom Pass is not valid for travel on train services operated by:

• East Midlands Trains
• Grand Central
• Hull Trains
• Gatwick Express (Only available with the purchase of an extension ticket at the start of your journey)
• Heathrow Express
• London North Eastern Railway
• Southeastern high speed services to and from St Pancras International and Stratford International

(source: https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/services/freedom-pass/using-pass/national-rail)

Strangely, it seems that you can use Boundary Z6 tickets in conjunction with 60+ oyster or freedom passes on Avanti (in theory at least), but not EMR or LNER. So if you're going to Luton Airport Parkway it would appear that with this combination you can use Thameslink but not EMR.

Getting my 60+ oyster in a couple of months (can't wait!) and am a frequent EMR user, so keen to understand this myself.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for that. So the issue is the Over 60s pass, not the Boundary Zone ticket that's with it.

GatEx appears to be valid with a BZ ticket (so not sure why it's there at all!)

 

[Haywain]

Avanti is not a participating operator in the scheme.

 

[microrich]

Avanti is not a participating operator in the scheme.

Are you referring to 60+ oyster or boundary tickets? (or both)?

The Freedom pass website certainly seems to suggest Avanti is valid for a Boundary Zone 6/Freedom pass combination since it is not listed as an excluded operator.

Also I note that brfares show Boundary Zone 6 tickets to Milton Keynes (for example) with no restriction on operator (https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=QAJ&dest=MKC&period=20240303)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Boundary Zone tickets in and of themselves are valid on any TOC. The issue is the Freedom Pass.

 

[Haywain]

Are you referring to 60+ oyster or boundary tickets? (or both)?

The Freedom pass website certainly seems to suggest Avanti is valid for a Boundary Zone 6/Freedom pass combination since it is not listed as an excluded operator.

Also I note that brfares show Boundary Zone 6 tickets to Milton Keynes (for example) with no restriction on operator (https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=QAJ&dest=MKC&period=20240303)

Freedom Pass and 60+ Oyster.

 

[microrich]

Freedom Pass and 60+ Oyster.

So are we saying that there is an error on the freedom pass website in that Avanti is not listed as an excluded operator?

In connection with this, I have been trying to find a formal T&C's for the 60+ oystercard/freedom pass which would hopefully unambiguously define the restrictions. Does one exist? I've been left attempting to work everything out from a combination of the TFL website and the freedom pass website (at https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/).

Am I correct in saying that the restrictions for the freedom pass (within London) are identical to those for the 60+ oystercard? (there is obviously a difference in eligibility criteria in terms of age).

 

[Highview]

The 60+ oystercard restrictions are not the same in some cases to the freedom pass - for example the 60+ is not valid past West Drayton on the Elizabeth Line but the freedom pass is valid on the Elizabeth Line from West Drayton to Reading.

 

[Adam Williams]

In connection with this, I have been trying to find a formal T&C's for the 60+ oystercard/freedom pass which would hopefully unambiguously define the restrictions. Does one exist? I've been left attempting to work everything out from a combination of the TFL website and the freedom pass website (at https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/).

My suggestion would be to try and plan a journey using the forum's ticketing site, and see if the journey planner offers a BZ ticket on the selected train using your pass type. For example, it doesn't offer a BZ ticket for EMR services (click Flexible) but will for TL in line with your previous observations in this thread. You'll also benefit from an itinerary, of course, if you decide to purchase.

Like most things involving London, the rules are ridiculously complicated and strewn across 3 different websites; I have to look them up every time I want to try and understand what's valid.

 

[Haywain]

So are we saying that there is an error on the freedom pass website in that Avanti is not listed as an excluded operator?

That would seem to be the case.

 

[PeterC]

I thought that the rule of thumb was that you had to be able to use that operator for a journey wholly covered by the card. Operators that don't take local passengers within the zones don't get any reimbursement under the 60+ and Freedom Pass schemes.

Or is that too logical?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought that the rule of thumb was that you had to be able to use that operator for a journey wholly covered by the card. Operators that don't take local passengers within the zones don't get any reimbursement under the 60+ and Freedom Pass schemes.

Or is that too logical?

That used to be the standard rule but hasn't been for a long time. BZ tickets with a Travelcard (day or season) are valid on Avanti etc. It's just a quirk of some TfL passes that those specifically are not.

 

[Joe Paxton]

That used to be the standard rule but hasn't been for a long time. BZ tickets with a Travelcard (day or season) are valid on Avanti etc. It's just a quirk of some TfL passes that those specifically are not.

Freedom Passes are not TfL passes - they are neither issued nor funded by TfL / the GLA.

60+ Oyster Passes, by contrast, are.

 

[Adam Williams]

they are neither issued nor funded by TfL

I don't think this is entirely true, but the amount TfL contribute is unremarkable.

 

[Haywain]

Freedom Passes are not TfL passes - they are neither issued nor funded by TfL / the GLA.

That doesn't change their validity on National Rail services.

 

[Belperpete]

What happens when you don't tap out with the 60+ Oystercard at the boundary?

 

[Hadders]

What happens when you don't tap out with the 60+ Oystercard at the boundary?

Nothing. It's effectively the same as a season ticket.

 

[PeterC]

Freedom Passes are not TfL passes - they are neither issued nor funded by TfL / the GLA.

60+ Oyster Passes, by contrast, are.

That doesn't change the issue over which operators are reimbursed for acceptance.

 

[microrich]

My suggestion would be to try and plan a journey using the forum's ticketing site, and see if the journey planner offers a BZ ticket on the selected train using your pass type. For example, it doesn't offer a BZ ticket for EMR services (click Flexible) but will for TL in line with your previous observations in this thread. You'll also benefit from an itinerary, of course, if you decide to purchase.

Like most things involving London, the rules are ridiculously complicated and strewn across 3 different websites; I have to look them up every time I want to try and understand what's valid.

Thanks for this suggestion which is useful (I do use the forums ticketing site extensively for buying tickets, which is mostly excellent).

However, typically I travel on day trips in the south east, and when I travel I simply want to know the choice of tickets and what the specific restrictions are for that ticket when using a 60+ Oyster. Using the approach you suggest requires me to essentially determine the restrictions by trial and error, essentially "reverse engineering" how the itineraries have been worked out.

I also believe there may be some errors in the forums ticketing site with some fares with 60+ Oyster. For example, Charing Cross to Dartford return. The 60+ oyster map at https://content.tfl.gov.uk/60-plus-london-free-travel-national-rail-map.pdf clearly shows this journey as being wholly covered by the 60+ Oystercard so there should be no additional cost. Yet the forums website attempts to sell a Boundary Zone 6 to Dartford off-peak day return for £4.20 for this journey (selecting "TFL 60+ Oyster card" in "More Options").

 

[Adam Williams]

I also believe there may be some errors in the forums ticketing site with some fares with 60+ Oyster

I'll ask about this, but I suspect it needs to be used with the expectation that at least one of the origin/destination is outwith the area of the pass to get sensible results. I'd expect similar results for Watford Junction on LO services. Ideally, I suppose it would simply refuse to provide any fares under these circumstances.

 

[microrich]

I'll ask about this, but I suspect it needs to be used with the expectation that at least one of the origin/destination is outwith the area of the pass to get sensible results. I'd expect similar results for Watford Junction on LO services. Ideally, I suppose it would simply refuse to provide any fares under these circumstances.

Thanks - I note with other examples where I enter 2 stations within the 60+ oyster area (e.g. Charing Cross and Erith) I get the error message

"Sorry, an error has occurred.​

Boundary zone searches need to be between a zonal and non-zonal station".

which seems sensible.

My suggestion is that the journey I have detailed also needs to show this same error message.

I'm speculating a bit here since I obviously don't know what is going on "under the bonnet" with the trainsplit engine, but the difference appears to be that although Dartford is definitely in the 60+ oystercard area, it is outside of Zone 6. As far as I can see, Dartford is the only station outside Zone 6 not served by a TFL service that is in the 60+ oystercard area, so is something of an exception which is not being recognised by trainsplit.

It does raise the question as to why this exception for Dartford? Again guessing a bit, but could the rationale be to allow people travelling between stations on the southeastern metro lines (Sidcup, Bexleyheath, Woolwich) to be able to travel via Dartford rather than central London when using the 60+ oystercard?

By the way, I don't envy you guys at trainsplit attempting to code all of these rules, and well done for being the only site (that I'm aware of) that attempts to handle this . I hope you don't mind me highlighting some of these issues.

 

[Highview]

Swanley can also be reached by the 60+ card with no TfL services but is in Zone 8 like Dartford.

 

[Taunton]

Nothing. It's effectively the same as a season ticket.

I wonder. Taps in and out are recorded as you can get journey history. But down the GWML you just show the card and are let through the gates. If you board at say Maidenhead, and change to the Underground at Tottenham Court Road, and then there's a ticket check at the outer end of the Northern Line, you have nothing to show how you got there.

If you transfer to the Underground, then the DLR, and tap on the freestanding reader as leaving there, it says "Enter".

 

[etr221]

What happens when you don't tap out with the 60+ Oystercard at the boundary?

Nothing. It's effectively the same as a season ticket.

I wonder. Taps in and out are recorded as you can get journey history. But down the GWML you just show the card and are let through the gates. If you board at say Maidenhead, and change to the Underground at Tottenham Court Road, and then there's a ticket check at the outer end of the Northern Line, you have nothing to show how you got there.

If you transfer to the Underground, then the DLR, and tap on the freestanding reader as leaving there, it says "Enter".

Hadders is correct (although I would have said 'Travelcard' rather than season ticket).
And, like a travelcard/season ticket, it is valid for use, within its limits, without needing to be tapped (in or out). Journey history is essentially a record of taps: if they are made, then you get journey history, if they are not, then you don't. And any inspection of 60+ Oyster/Freedom Pass/travelcard/season ticket will show it as valid (or not), regardless of taps, except when a PAYG extension fare is being charged via the card (which does require tapping in/out, and is not the same as having a separate Boundary Zone to wherever ticket)

 

[MikeWh]

except when a PAYG extension fare is being charged via the card (which does require tapping in/out, and is not the same as having a separate Boundary Zone to wherever ticket)

60+ Oyster cards do not carry a PAYG balance. If you want to go to Gatwick, for example, you must use a boundary zone ticket.

The reason you can't use a balance on the card is that the validity changes by train company and there is no way to know which company you use when touching in and out. Between Shenfield and zone 6 you can use Elizabeth line services with the 60+ card, but not Greater Anglia services.