Overdistance excess - return not via orginal destination

[ASharpe]

I have an Guildford to Leeds return ticket with an overdistance excess to Halifax on both legs.

Would this ticket be valid returning on a Grandcentral service from Halifax to London? Or do I need to go via Leeds? I know the route would be valid for a normal Guildford the Halifax ticket.

I had a search of the forum and the fares guide but results were not clear.

Thank in advance for answering another of my questions.

 

[bb21]

There is no consensus on the forum regarding this issue.

Some people argue that because it is an excess fare for "over-riding", you therefore must travel via your original station.

Others argue that an excess changes a ticket to another, hence all permitted routes of the new ticket apply.

I leave you to make up your own mind on this.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I have an Guildford to Leeds return ticket with an overdistance excess to Halifax on both legs.

Would this ticket be valid returning on a Grandcentral service from Halifax to London? Or do I need to go via Leeds? I know the route would be valid for a normal Guildford the Halifax ticket.

I had a search of the forum and the fares guide but results were not clear.

Thank in advance for answering another of my questions.

'The Manual' (staff document) notes three types of excess which might, by some, be deemed appropriate.

'Over-riding (travelling beyond the destination on the ticket)'
'Change of Route'
'Deviation from the route on the ticket to a new destination'

I personally don't think it's rocket science, but someone else will be along shortly to disagree......

This post might be helpful.

 

[yorkie]

Well I wasn't going to contribute as I felt bb21 had covered it, but if we're going to have one side, here's the other..

“a variation in the Rights and Restrictions applicable to a Fare which has the impact of converting that Fare into another Fare”

It is a franchise commitment of all TOCs to adhere to the TSA. If a fare has been 'converted into another fare' then the terms of the fare it has been converted into apply.

Nothing can over-ride that principle, as to do so would be contrary to the TSA and a franchise breach complaint could be made to the DfT if anyone was denied travel. In practice, I can't imagine there would be any problems at all, of course, it's all theoretical in my opinion.

 

[AeroSpace]

Nothing can over-ride that principle

Presumably not intentional, yorkie?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Told you.....

Of course, any discussion involving pre-determined definitions would be much better with those pre-determined definitions....

“Fare” means the right, exercisable against one or more Operators (and, where applicable, another
person or persons), subject to the Rights and Restrictions applicable to it and the payment of the
relevant Price (less any applicable discounts):-

(a) to make one or more journeys on the Network (whether or not together with other
rights); or

(b) to carry on such a journey an item of luggage or an animal, where this right does not
arise (except on the payment of a fee) under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage or, as
the case may be, the CIV Rules or any additional conditions that are applicable,

and, where applicable, to obtain other goods or services from an Operator or another person or
persons. However, it does not include an Excess Fare or any rights that are evidenced by a London
Concessionary Travel Permit that is issued under the London Concessionary Travel Scheme.

....

“Price” means the price (including any applicable VAT) of a Rail Product or Non-Rail Product
before the deduction of any applicable discount to which a Purchaser may be entitled, as determined
in a Fares Setting Round, as specified on the relevant Product Implementation Form or, in the
case of a Reservation or an Upgrade, as notified to the Operators pursuant to Clauses 4-47 or 4-49
below.

....

“Rail Product” means a Fare, an Excess Fare, a Discount Card, a Reservation or an Upgrade.

....

“Rights and Restrictions” means the rights, restrictions and conditions to which a Fare is subject (in
other words, the defining characteristics of a Fare), for example:-

(a) the times of day during which a Purchaser of the Fare may travel;

(b) the period of validity;

(c) the route(s) on which a Purchaser of the Fare may travel;

(d) the Operator(s) whose trains a Purchaser of the Fare may use;

(e) any requirement to Purchase a Reservation before that Fare can be used;

(f) the National Class of Accommodation with which the Fare is designated; and

(g) in addition to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage or, as the case may be, the
CIV Rules, any other conditions to which it is subject specified by an Operator on
whose trains a Purchaser of the Fare may travel.

Which means....

“Excess Fare” means a variation in the Rights and Restrictions applicable to a Fare which has the impact of converting that Fare into another Fare”

....doesn't say....

"Guildford-Leeds fare plus over-riding excess fare to Halifax" equals "Guildford-Halifax fare"

....anymore than it says....

"Guildford-Leeds fare plus over-riding excess fare to Halifax" equals "Guildford-Leeds-Halifax fare"

....but I'm sure this is now 'subject to interpretation', or something like that.....

 

[yorkie]

It clearly doesn't mean that, as the fare it has been converted to is a fare (singular), it's not equivalent to a combination of tickets (ie, Guildford-Leeds/Leeds-Halifax), otherwise it would have been issued as a seperate ticket, rather than an excess. Nor has it been converted into a non-existent fare. The terms of the fare it has been converted into are what prevails.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It clearly doesn't mean that, as the fare it has been converted to is a fare (singular), it's not equivalent to a combination of tickets (ie, Guildford-Leeds/Leeds-Halifax), otherwise it would have been issued as a seperate ticket, rather than an excess. Nor has it been converted into a non-existent fare. The terms of the fare it has been converted into are what prevails.

Where did I mention a combination of fares?

I said "Guildford-Leeds-Halifax fare". You see, I said fare, singular, fare. Exchange it with "Guildford-Halifax via Leeds fare" if you like.

"Fare" is defined in the document you quoted.

 

[yorkie]

There is no such thing as a "Guildford-Leeds-Halifax fare", where is that fare in the database?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Where does it say that a 'fare' has to be in the database?

 

[island]

Post 2 adequately sums up posts 3-10

 

[yorkie]

Where does it say that a 'fare' has to be in the database?

If it's a fare you've made up, that doesn't otherwise exist, where is the definition of its validity?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Answer the question.

 

[bb21]

Post 2 adequately sums up posts 3-10

I feel a sense of déjà vu.

 

[ASharpe]

Thanks for the replies, it seems there is no consensus on the issue on these forums.

I'm not sure if I will travel via GC this week as my plans would need to be in Halifax and wanting to leave at a similar time to one of the 4 GC trains. But I could do this in the future. I think I will be careful if choosing to do this and ask the guard or in the ticket office first.

 

[yorkie]

If you have concerns about a ticket, I'd simply ask the Guard. The ticket office is run by Northern, who may have a different view on any particular ticket.

In the highly unlikely event of your Halifax-Guildford excess ticket not being accepted avoiding Leeds, a Halifax-Wakefield SDS costs £3.60 (route: not via Leeds)

 

[ASharpe]

In the unlikely event anyone is interested: I currently am on Grandcentral (free wifi; the other branch), boarding at Eaglescliffe with a split at Leeds (although part excessed to Halifax)

If an overdistance excess can give extra route validity, can it also reduce it? Is there anywhere where a ticket can go via Leeds to London but not Via York (or an alternative example) where an excess could (if presented) mean a restriction?

Purely academic of course. Except that I do roughly this sort of thing every other week due to the geography of my life.

Thanks again for all your help in enlightening me in the rules of ticket validity.

 

[yorkie]

The terms of the new fare apply so yes, it could reduce validity.

In general York/Leeds to London tend to be interchangeable with each other in terms of routeings (and fares)