Overnight break of journey

[clagmonster]

I have seen in many threads on here that an overnight break of journey is allowed, even on tickets such as day returns, where completing a journey in one day is not practical. My understanding is that travel must be resumed by 12:00 the next day. Please could somebody point me in the direction of where this is officially documented, as I have had a look through the NCOC and couldn't find it. The specific case I am thinking of is leaving Nottingham at about 23:00 on the return portion of an Grimsby-Nottingham CDR. Completing the journey is impossible, so overnight break of journey in Sheffield, then morning train back to Grimsby. Thanks in advance.

 

[glynn80]

I have seen in many threads on here that an overnight break of journey is allowed, even on tickets such as day returns, where completing a journey in one day is not practical. My understanding is that travel must be resumed by 12:00 the next day. Please could somebody point me in the direction of where this is officially documented, as I have had a look through the NCOC and couldn't find it. The specific case I am thinking of is leaving Nottingham at about 23:00 on the return portion of an Grimsby-Nottingham CDR. Completing the journey is impossible, so overnight break of journey in Sheffield, then morning train back to Grimsby. Thanks in advance.

The part of the NRCOC you refer to is Condition 16.

For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start your journey other than:
(i) to join a train at another station, or
(ii) to stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably
complete your journey within one day, or
(iii) to follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s staff.

However that doesn't relate to your journey as it is when you cannot reasonably complete your journey "within" one day, i.e. you cannot do the whole journey within a single day e.g. Penzance to Wick.

What does relate to your however is contained in the FRPP and for Off Peak Day tickets it states the following.

Off-Peak Day Singles and Returns: Valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket and until 0230 the following day. If it is not possible to complete the journey before this time, travel is allowed until 1200 the day after travel – but no further break of journey is allowed.

What the above says is a bit confusing and not very clear.

Looking at what it states for Off Peak tickets whereby it states that travel must be resumed by 0230 and you can then continue travelling until 1200 but cannot make any further break of journey but crucially you cannot start your journey again after 0230, it leads me to believe you wouldn't be able to do as you wished and stay overnight in Sheffield unless you stayed within the station. However it could the statement could be interpreted differently by someone else.

 

[clagmonster]

Thanks very much for that Glynn.
As FRPP is not in the public domain, I assume that all guards will have knowledge of this, as it is the sort of thing that I like to take a printout for, just in case.

 

[glynn80]

Thanks very much for that Glynn.
As FRPP is not in the public domain, I assume that all guards will have knowledge of this, as it is the sort of thing that I like to take a printout for, just in case.

Just ask the ticket office to print off the relevant page, or if not write down what it states and station stamp it.

 

[Matt Taylor]

AFAIK this overnight stay loophole exists purely for the benefit of passengers making very long distance journeys such as the previously mentioned Penzance to Wick etc, it also exists to cover passengers travelling on overnight services such as sleepers, Gatwick Express etc.

A day ticket is for a reasonably short journey and thus there is no need to travel overnight so day tickets are only valid on the date on the ticket, it is the responsibility of the passenger to ensure that they have a suitable connection to enable themselves to get back to their origin/destination, if you fail to do that the TOC is not responsible and thus you will need to buy a new ticket.

 

[glynn80]

AFAIK this overnight stay loophole exists purely for the benefit of passengers making very long distance journeys such as the previously mentioned Penzance to Wick etc, it also exists to cover passengers travelling on overnight services such as sleepers, Gatwick Express etc.

A day ticket is for a reasonably short journey and thus there is no need to travel overnight so day tickets are only valid on the date on the ticket, it is the responsibility of the passenger to ensure that they have a suitable connection to enable themselves to get back to their origin/destination, if you fail to do that the TOC is not responsible and thus you will need to buy a new ticket.

I think this is a correct analysis and is the message the FRPP meant to convey although it was pretty badly worded.

Also Gatwick Express does not run overnight, Southern run the overnight services to Gatwick Airport. You may be thinking of the First Transpennine Express services from York to Manchester Airport who coincidentally have special easements relating to them which seem to back up your analysis.

Day Return Easements

Leeds to York – Last Evening Services

Customers may use First TransPennine Express services which are scheduled to depart Leeds for York between 0230 and 0330 with tickets valid for the previous day.

Leeds to Huddersfield or Manchester – Last Evening Services

Customers may use First TransPennine Express services which are scheduled to depart Leeds for Huddersfield/Manchester between 0230 and 0330 with tickets valid for the previous day.

If your analysis were incorrect there would be no need for these easements but I believe it to be correct and thus FTPE are required to issue these easements to take account for that fact.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

I think as the journey is comparitivley short, you'd have a few questions to answer boarding a train in Sheffield in the morning with a ticket dated from the day before.
Why not pay a little bit extra, get an open return and avoid all the fuss?

 

[glynn80]

I think as the journey is comparitivley short, you'd have a few questions to answer boarding a train in Sheffield in the morning with a ticket dated from the day before.
Why not pay a little bit extra, get an open return and avoid all the fuss?

I would suggest the Off Peak Return at £22.00 compared to the Off Peak Day Return at £15.00 (new prices from May).

The Off Peak has similar validity to the Off Peak Day on this route, valid from 0900 for the former rather than 0930 for the latter on the outward portion. On the return portion however you would have to wait until 0900 to travel the next morning.

 

[clagmonster]

I agree, it is probably a result of the FRPP being badly worded. However, with the TPE easements, rather than being the continuation from an overnight break of journey, is for starting the return journey on a day return after 02:30. Another point is that the NXEC website is prepared to offer me a seat reservation on the first Sheffield-Grimsby train of the morning, having left Nottingham at about 23:00 the night before.