Oxford - Brighton fares

[igloo]

Hi all,

I'm a little confused by Oxford - Brighton fares; I wonder if anyone could help me please?

I'm looking at return trip from Oxford to Brighton, e.g. leaving on the 7th Dec and returning on the 9th Dec, for 1 passenger, on http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/

Both the 14:01 and the 17:01 outward journeys take the route Oxford - Reading - Gatwick Airport - Brighton, and both cost £45 (returning, for example, at 14:25). This I assume is the NOT LONDON price, although I can't see where to find that information on the website. Other times, e.g. 14:31, are £51, which I assume is the ANY PERMITTED price.

My first confusion is why the £51 price isn't shown if I click "More Fares" next to one of the £45s. Wouldn't I be able to take the avoiding London route on the more expensive ticket? While doing so may be silly, the website won't allow me to select an outward journey avoiding London and a return journey going through it.

But my main confusion relates to railcards. If I now tell the site that I have a network railcard then the 14:01 price drops to £29.70, but the 17:01 is still £45. I've looked at http://www.railcard.co.uk/network/time-restrictions but don't see any restrictions. My best guess is that it relates to the Gatwick Airport - Brighton leg being handled by a Gatwick Express train, but http://www.railcard.co.uk/network/terms says

Network Railcard discounts are available for journeys on Gatwick Express services between Gatwick Airport and Brighton. On Mondays to Fridays (except Bank Holidays) passengers holding Network Railcard discounted tickets can travel on selected Gatwick Express train services from London Victoria to Haywards Heath or beyond during the evening peak - see Easements for further details.

which I read as saying that taking any "Gatwick Express" train from Gatwick Airport to Brighton is fine - and that part of the line doesn't have a black "not valid" line on http://www.railcard.co.uk/clientfiles/File/map.pdf

So is the website wrong, am I reading the restrictions wrong, or is there another reason that a railcard can't be used on that journey?


Thanks
Ian

 

[LexyBoy]

My first confusion is why the £51 price isn't shown if I click "More Fares" next to one of the £45s. Wouldn't I be able to take the avoiding London route on the more expensive ticket? While doing so may be silly, the website won't allow me to select an outward journey avoiding London and a return journey going through it.

NRE doesn't handle ticket routeings very well, not helped by the steadily increasing number of routeing restrictions. I suspect it's "forcing" you to travel on the route a ticket is "intended" to be valid on (for example, lots of Virgin routed flows have changed from "+Any Permitted" to "+London" - but these are still usually valid on cross country routes as they're usually more expensive than the "Not London" fare).

Having looked myself, NRE is happy to offer an outbound via London and return avoiding London on the Any Permitted ticket. Not sure why the "more fares" says it can't find any.

Some interesting routeings coming up as well - via Basingstoke is familiar but slightly surprised to see Oxford>Southampton>Brighton.

But my main confusion relates to railcards. If I now tell the site that I have a network railcard then the 14:01 price drops to £29.70, but the 17:01 is still £45. I've looked at http://www.railcard.co.uk/network/time-restrictions but don't see any restrictions. My best guess is that it relates to the Gatwick Airport - Brighton leg being handled by a Gatwick Express train, but http://www.railcard.co.uk/network/terms says
(...)
which I read as saying that taking any "Gatwick Express" train from Gatwick Airport to Brighton is fine - and that part of the line doesn't have a black "not valid" line on http://www.railcard.co.uk/clientfiles/File/map.pdf

So is the website wrong, am I reading the restrictions wrong, or is there another reason that a railcard can't be used on that journey?

I'd say the website is wrong and flags the Network Railcard as invalid due to the GatEx leg. The system is far too complex, and fiddled around with too often, to program into a journey planner with 100% accuracy.

I can't see any reason the Any Permitted ticket, with Network Railcard discount, wouldn't be valid on any route (except Gatwick Express services to London except those to which an easement applies, except if you're going to argue that Gatwick Express is not a TOC, except...).

To do the journey via a different route on the way back, it would be cheaper (by a whole £3!) to buy the Not London ticket and excess it to the Any Permitted - the excess being half the difference, per leg.

 

[wintonian]

£45 is route NOT LONDON and £51 is route +ANY PERMITTED.

the Network card discount for the not London fare is £29.70 as to why NRE don't show it for the 17.01 I don't know and I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't be valid.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can't see any reason the Any Permitted ticket, with Network Railcard discount, wouldn't be valid on any route (except Gatwick Express services to London except those to which an easement applies, except if you're going to argue that Gatwick Express is not a TOC, except...).

Without wanting to get into a deep protracted debate about the issue (again!) since when has it been claimed that Network cards are not valid on Gatwick Express? I can't find this 'rule' as far as I was aware they are valid on Gatwick Express?

 

[LexyBoy]

Without wanting to get into a deep protracted debate about the issue (again!) since when has it been claimed that Network cards are not valid on Gatwick Express? I can't find this 'rule' as far as I was aware they are valid on Gatwick Express?

I don't know how long it's been around (probably a long time), but I was going on the link provided by the OP Rather peculiarly the easements applying to Gatwick Express allow Network Railcard discounted tickets only during the M-F evening peak (maybe the idea was to relieve overcrowding on other services?).

 

[wintonian]

I don't know how long it's been around (probably a long time), but I was going on the link provided by the OP Rather peculiarly the easements applying to Gatwick Express allow Network Railcard discounted tickets only during the M-F evening peak (maybe the idea was to relieve overcrowding on other services?).

I see - I shouldn't try doing 2 things at the same time. .

Network Railcard discounts are available for journeys on Gatwick Express services between Gatwick Airport and Brighton. On Mondays to Fridays (except Bank Holidays) passengers holding Network Railcard discounted tickets can travel on selected Gatwick Express train services from London Victoria to Haywards Heath or beyond during the evening peak - see Easements for further details.

This suggest to me that Network card discounted tickets can be used on all Gatwick Express serves except those in the evening peak that are not explicitly defined in the easements, trouble is the evening peak is not defined - as such they should (possibly?) be valid on all services (after 10:00) making the easements pointless untill the evening peak has a definition.

 

[bb21]

I don't know how long it's been around (probably a long time), but I was going on the link provided by the OP Rather peculiarly the easements applying to Gatwick Express allow Network Railcard discounted tickets only during the M-F evening peak (maybe the idea was to relieve overcrowding on other services?).

Is the service not supposedly operated by GatEx beyond Gatwick Airport anyway? I know they are operated by 442s but they are only supposedly run under the GatEx brand betweeen Victoria and GTW.

 

[MikeWh]

I don't know how long it's been around (probably a long time), but I was going on the link provided by the OP Rather peculiarly the easements applying to Gatwick Express allow Network Railcard discounted tickets only during the M-F evening peak (maybe the idea was to relieve overcrowding on other services?).

Surely you can't use the Network Railcard on any morning peak trains as they are all before 10am?

 

[wintonian]

Surely you can't use the Network Railcard on any morning peak trains as they are all before 10am?

Good point the morning peak is defined - I changed my post to reflect that.

 

[John @ home]

the Network card discount for the not London fare is £29.70 as to why NRE don't show it for the 17.01 I don't know and I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't be valid.

It is valid for travel on the 1701 from Oxford.

since when has it been claimed that Network cards are not valid on Gatwick Express? I can't find this 'rule' as far as I was aware they are valid on Gatwick Express?

As far as I remember, since the introduction of the Network Card in 1986. The Network Railcard map shows shows London Victoria - Gatwick Airport by Gatwick Express as a Line where Network Railcards are NOT valid.

My opinion is that the reason the 1701 is wrongly shown as unavailable with a Network Railcard is due to software inadequacies. Gatwick Express ceased to be a train company some years ago and is now part of Southern, but still retains a different TOC code in the online booking system, and this code is used to exclude Gatwick Express trains from some Railcard reduced fares.

The 1701 is shown to use Gatwick Express for the Gatwick - Brighton leg:

17:01 Oxford - Reading 17:24 GW
17:24 Reading - Gatwick Airport 19:00 GW
19:16 Gatwick Airport - Brighton 19:47 GX

My guess is that the software was not written to cope with some Railcards being valid for the Gatwick - Brighton part only of this London Victoria - Brighton train.

 

[wintonian]

It is valid for travel on the 1701 from Oxford.
As far as I remember, since the introduction of the Network Card in 1986. The Network Railcard map shows shows London Victoria - Gatwick Airport by Gatwick Express as a Line where Network Railcards are NOT valid.

My opinion is that the reason the 1701 is wrongly shown as unavailable with a Network Railcard is due to software inadequacies. Gatwick Express ceased to be a train company some years ago and is now part of Southern, but still retains a different TOC code in the online booking system, and this code is used to exclude Gatwick Express trains from some Railcard reduced fares.

The 1701 is shown to use Gatwick Express for the Gatwick - Brighton leg:My guess is that the software was not written to cope with some Railcards being valid for the Gatwick - Brighton part only of this London Victoria - Brighton train.

That solves my issue then.

Must admit I never noticed that exclusion even when I had a Network card myself many years ago.

 

[Paul Kelly]

The 1701 is shown to use Gatwick Express for the Gatwick - Brighton leg:My guess is that the software was not written to cope with some Railcards being valid for the Gatwick - Brighton part only of this London Victoria - Brighton train.

I believe the journey planners and National Reservation System can't cope with the situation where the TOC operating a train changes en-route. We also see this for example with Carlisle to Glasgow services being shown as operated by Northern Rail because the train originated in Newcastle and was operated by Northern for the Newcastle to Carlisle leg.

Network Rail systems that provide timetable information (e.g. Train Service Database) cope with this perfectly well. So I think the reason for this is just shoddy workmanship on the part of the companies that ATOC out-source provision of computer systems to (e.g. Cap Gemini, who are responsible for the National Reservations System).

And you have to have a smile at the superlative language in the Cap Gemini promotional document linked to on that page, e.g. One of the best things to come out of the 1997 privatization of the UK rail industry was the formation of the Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC).

 

[LexyBoy]

Surely you can't use the Network Railcard on any morning peak trains as they are all before 10am?

I'd forgotten that GX is only extended to Brighton during peak hours, that makes more sense now.

 

[igloo]

Thanks all for all the info and confirmations!

 

[yorkie]

• Gatwick Express do not "operate" any trains; their website states "Gatwick Express is operated by Southern" (Source: GatEx branded site)
• Gatwick Express is not a company (Source: Companies House) - the only company of that name ceased trading in 2008 when the TOC was abolished
• Gatwick Express, not operating any trains, and not being a company, is therefore obviously not a Train Operating Company (Source: DfT ) however Southern are breaking the law by claiming that it is. (Feel free to contact Liam Ludlow at Southern Customer Services about that, and/or John Horncastle of ATOC who constructs sentences that make no sense when you remove the brackets).
• Gatwick Express appears as a route on Southern's front page under "Service Update" and also appears on the Southern Maps as a Southern operated "route" and it is admitted by Southern in their "Company Info"
• The National Rail website treats Gatwick Express as if it was a TOC, my recommendation is that people contact them and ask them to fix this.
• Until the mid-1990s, Gatwick Express was operated by InterCity, which did not accept the Network Railcard which was an NSE product. The abolishment of IC/NSE meant that elsewhere common sense prevailed but for some bizarre reason the Gatwick Express TOC (as it was then) did not accept Network Railcard discounted tickets, however now these trains are operated by Southern there is no excuse for this. However, there is an "easement" to allow the trains that run from London to Brighton in the evening peak to be used on Network Railcard discounted tickets, however this is so incredibly complex and archaic that National Rail Enquiries (and possibly booking sites - I've not checked) can't understand the easement.
• The TOC does not "change en-route" on any of these trains; the TOC is Southern. Gatwick Express is a brand name, and this does not change. I've seen the boards at Gatwick and they state that the trains going to Brighton are Gatwick Express trains.
• Gatwick Express and Stansted Express are both brand names of the respective TOCs; Southern and NXEA. It is Southern and NXEA respectively who operate these trains. Neither are companies, neither operate trains, and neither are Train Operating Companies.
• Some passengers have been charged an excess fare when using Southern Only tickets on Gatwick Express, all customers that made themselves known to us who were charged the excess, were refunded in full by Southern.
• Several more passengers have used Gatwick Express branded trains operated by Southern on Southern Only tickets and were not charged.
• If you are charged an excess fare on this service (on the false basis that Network Railcard discounts do not apply to your journey), I am confident we can reclaim the excess fare for you, and I am happy to proof read any letter you send to Southern.

 

[wintonian]

• Gatwick Express do not "operate" any trains; their website states "Gatwick Express is operated by Southern" (Source: GatEx branded site)
• Gatwick Express is not a company (Source: Companies House) - the only company of that name ceased trading in 2008 when the TOC was abolished
• Gatwick Express, not operating any trains, and not being a company, is therefore obviously not a Train Operating Company (Source: DfT ) however Southern are breaking the law by claiming that it is. (Feel free to contact Liam Ludlow at Southern Customer Services about that, and/or John Horncastle of ATOC who constructs sentences that make no sense when you remove the brackets).
• Gatwick Express appears as a route on Southern's front page under "Service Update" and also appears on the Southern Maps as a Southern operated "route" and it is admitted by Southern in their "Company Info"
• The National Rail website treats Gatwick Express as if it was a TOC, my recommendation is that people contact them and ask them to fix this.
• Until the mid-1990s, Gatwick Express was operated by InterCity, which did not accept the Network Railcard which was an NSE product. The abolishment of IC/NSE meant that elsewhere common sense prevailed but for some bizarre reason the Gatwick Express TOC (as it was then) did not accept Network Railcard discounted tickets, however now these trains are operated by Southern there is no excuse for this. However, there is an "easement" to allow the trains that run from London to Brighton in the evening peak to be used on Network Railcard discounted tickets, however this is so incredibly complex and archaic that National Rail Enquiries (and possibly booking sites - I've not checked) can't understand the easement.
• The TOC does not "change en-route" on any of these trains; the TOC is Southern. Gatwick Express is a brand name, and this does not change. I've seen the boards at Gatwick and they state that the trains going to Brighton are Gatwick Express trains.
• Gatwick Express and Stansted Express are both brand names of the respective TOCs; Southern and NXEA. It is Southern and NXEA respectively who operate these trains. Neither are companies, neither operate trains, and neither are Train Operating Companies.
• Some passengers have been charged an excess fare when using Southern Only tickets on Gatwick Express, all customers that made themselves known to us who were charged the excess, were refunded in full by Southern.
• Several more passengers have used Gatwick Express branded trains operated by Southern on Southern Only tickets and were not charged.
• If you are charged an excess fare on this service (on the false basis that Network Railcard discounts do not apply to your journey), I am confident we can reclaim the excess fare for you, and I am happy to proof read any letter you send to Southern.

Oh dear did someone have to mention Gatwick express.

However you are quite right and the list in the Network Railcard T&C's dosn't mention Gatwick Express but does mention Southern!

Train Companies providing Network Railcard discounts:

c2c

Chiltern Railways †

CrossCountry †

East Coast †

East Midland Trains

First Capital Connect

First Great Western †

London Midland

London Overground

National Express East Anglia †

Southeastern

Southern

South West Trains (including Island Line)

Virgin Trains †

Network Railcard discounts are available for journeys on Gatwick Express services between Gatwick Airport and Brighton. On Mondays to Fridays (except Bank Holidays) passengers holding Network Railcard discounted tickets can travel on selected Gatwick Express train services from London Victoria to Haywards Heath or beyond during the evening peak - see Easements for further details.

† Some restrictions apply on services provided by these train companies.

Yes I know it mentions Gatwick Express in the paragraph at the bottom but bellow that is sates that those TOC's with restrictions are asterisked, Gatwick Express has restrictions on the use of the railcard so why is it not in the list and asterisked?

In fact lets try and re-write it for clarity:

Train Companies providing Network Railcard discounts:

c2c

<List of TOC's unchanged>

Virgin Trains †

Additionally Network Railcard discounts are available for journeys on Gatwick Express services between Gatwick Airport and Brighton. On Mondays to Fridays (except Bank Holidays) passengers holding Network Railcard discounted tickets can travel on selected Gatwick Express train services from London Victoria to Haywards Heath or beyond during the evening peak - see Easements for further details.

† Some restrictions apply on services provided by these train companies.

 

[John @ home]

why is it not in the list and asterisked?

Because it's not a train company. This is actually a correct use of the names. Gatwick Express is a trading name used by Southern.

 

[wintonian]

Because it's not a train company. This is actually a correct use of the names. Gatwick Express is a trading name used by Southern.

Correct - though the question was purely rhetorical.

 

[yorkie]

Perhaps it's not in the list, because the list is apparently a list of Train Companies, and Gatwick Express is not a Train Company (or indeed any sort of company since 2008!).

Edit - sorry, didn't see the replies on page 2!

 

[button_boxer]

I think the point was that if there are restrictions on Gatwick Express branded services then there should be an asterisk against Southern, but there isn't.