Oyster PAYG touch in/out on validator

[elaine66]

I've recently started travelling between Farringdon and Turnpike Lane at around 5pm - 5:30pm on weekday evenings by taking the Thameslink to Finsbury Park and then changing onto the Piccadilly line. I'm using Oyster PAYG. At the top of the stairs to the underground at Finsbury Park there's an Oyster validator with a number of signs of varying degrees of officialness telling Oyster PAYG users they have to use it. I've been complying, but I've noticed by checking my journey history that when I do so, it shows as a touch out, not a touch in as the signs say, I assume because I've already touched in at the gateline at Farringdon. The gates at Turnpike Lane let me out fine and I seem to end up paying the correct £3.60 fare, but I'm worried that the next time there's a line of ticket inspectors inside the gateline at Turnpike Lane, they're going to think I haven't got a valid touch in and I'll be in all sorts of trouble.

Should I carry on obeying the signs, or ignore the validator? It is a slight pain to have to get my Oyster out when all I'm doing is changing trains, and I do seem to be getting in people's way to get to the validator, so I'd rather ignore it if possible.

 

[Watershed]

I've recently started travelling between Farringdon and Turnpike Lane at around 5pm - 5:30pm on weekday evenings by taking the Thameslink to Finsbury Park and then changing onto the Piccadilly line. I'm using Oyster PAYG. At the top of the stairs to the underground at Finsbury Park there's an Oyster validator with a number of signs of varying degrees of officialness telling Oyster PAYG users they have to use it. I've been complying, but I've noticed by checking my journey history that when I do so, it shows as a touch out, not a touch in as the signs say, I assume because I've already touched in at the gateline at Farringdon. The gates at Turnpike Lane let me out fine and I seem to end up paying the correct £3.60 fare, but I'm worried that the next time there's a line of ticket inspectors inside the gateline at Turnpike Lane, they're going to think I haven't got a valid touch in and I'll be in all sorts of trouble.

Should I carry on obeying the signs, or ignore the validator? It is a slight pain to have to get my Oyster out when all I'm doing is changing trains, and I do seem to be getting in people's way to get to the validator, so I'd rather ignore it if possible.

Once you have touched in, the only kind of validator you need to touch during your journey is either:

• a pink validator (to avail of a cheaper fare for taking a route avoiding certain Zones) or
• a yellow validator (standalone or on a gateline) when undertaking an Out of Station Interchange, i.e. where you leave the paid area of one station and walk to an adjacent/nearby station. This is sometimes necessary when changing between parts of a station of the same name, e.g. between the LU and NR parts of London Termini.

The validator at the top of the stairs at Finsbury Park is intended for people who are changing between National Rail and London Underground services, and are using a paper/smart ticket for the NR portion of their journey but want to switch to Oyster/contactless for the LU part, or vice versa.

The validator at Finsbury Park is set to continuation exit, meaning that the journey is completed for the purposes of preventing you from being charged a maximum fare. However you are still deemed 'touched in', so that if you accidently touch the validator where you don't need to, you will still be valid to travel and won't be charged a maximum fare upon touching out at the end of your journey.

Technically there is nothing wrong with what you are doing, but as noted in the link above, some RPIs may be unaccustomed to seeing your card not having a maximum fare, so there is a risk they interpret this as you having touched out and thus not having a valid ticket. Overall you gain nothing, but stand to potentially face hassle, by touching at the validator - so there is no reason to do so.

 

[elaine66]

Once you have touched in, the only kind of validator you need to touch during your journey is either:

• a pink validator (to avail of a cheaper fare for taking a route avoiding certain Zones) or
• a yellow validator (standalone or on a gateline) when undertaking an Out of Station Interchange, i.e. where you leave the paid area of one station and walk to an adjacent/nearby station. This is sometimes necessary when changing between parts of a station of the same name, e.g. between the LU and NR parts of London Termini.

The validator at the top of the stairs at Finsbury Park is intended for people who are changing between National Rail and London Underground services, and are using a paper/smart ticket for the NR portion of their journey but want to switch to Oyster/contactless for the LU part, or vice versa.

The validator at Finsbury Park is set to continuation exit, meaning that the journey is completed for the purposes of preventing you from being charged a maximum fare. However you are still deemed 'touched in', so that if you accidently touch the validator where you don't need to, you will still be valid to travel and won't be charged a maximum fare upon touching out at the end of your journey.

Technically there is nothing wrong with what you are doing, but as noted in the link above, some RPIs may be unaccustomed to seeing your card not having a maximum fare, so there is a risk they interpret this as you having touched out and thus not having a valid ticket. Overall you gain nothing, but stand to potentially face hassle, by touching at the validator - so there is no reason to do so.

Brilliant, thank you. I shall commence sailing past the validator this evening.

 

[Richardr]

The validator at the top of the stairs at Finsbury Park is intended for people who are changing between National Rail and London Underground services, and are using a paper/smart ticket for the NR portion of their journey but want to switch to Oyster/contactless for the LU part, or vice versa.

Slightly off topic, but do these same validators work for both the National Rail smart ticket (KeyGo for Thameslink) for an out say, as well as the Oystercard (which would be an in) - assuming both were separately tapped against it?

 

[Nottingham59]

At the top of the stairs to the underground at Finsbury Park there's an Oyster validator with a number of signs of varying degrees of officialness telling Oyster PAYG users they have to use it.

I had the same dilemma some years ago at Seven Sisters, where there is a yellow Oyster card reader in the passageway between the tube and the rail platforms. The only signage said "Oyster card users touch here", so some such. I really do think that TfL should put signs up with these readers saying who they are for and that near all Oyster card users don't need to worry about them.

 

[Hadders]

Now that Finsbury Park station is barriered the standalone validators are only for passengers changing from paper tickets to Oyster/contactless and vv.

 

[Nottingham59]

Now that Finsbury Park station is barriered the standalone validators are only for passengers changing from paper tickets to Oyster/contactless and vv.

Yes. And the notice next to them should say so. If it's like Seven Sisters five years ago, it will say "Oyster Users tap here", which was incorrect and misleading.

 

[Hadders]

Yes. And the notice next to them should say so. If it's like Seven Sisters five years ago, it will say "Oyster Users tap here", which was incorrect and misleading.

Agreed. IIRC the notices are ones produced by GTR rather than LU, not that this really matters.

 

[Richardr]

Now that Finsbury Park station is barriered the standalone validators are only for passengers changing from paper tickets to Oyster/contactless and vv.

So does that mean someone changing from KeyGo to Oyster has to exit the station to get the KeyGo tap out?

 

[Mikw]

I find it all rather confusing. I remember by credit went from £28 to £1 because of "missing touches" once, i got it all back after a few weeks, but it worried me on the day.

So now i just touch any validator no matter what, that seems to have stopped the missing touches anyway.

 

[MikeWh]

Agreed. IIRC the notices are ones produced by GTR rather than LU, not that this really matters.

The validators in the subway are attached to the Underground station.

 

[Hadders]

The validators in the subway are attached to the Underground station.

But I’m sure the notices above them are locally produced GTR ones. I’ll check tomorrow morning as I’ll be using one of those validators to touch in.

 

[Watershed]

I find it all rather confusing. I remember by credit went from £28 to £1 because of "missing touches" once, i got it all back after a few weeks, but it worried me on the day.

So now i just touch any validator no matter what, that seems to have stopped the missing touches anyway.

Touching any validator no matter what could, in some cases, lead to you completing your journey mid way through, meaning you are travelling 'ticketless'.

It's quite simple really, touch in when you start your journey, touch out when you finish it. If you are changing trains en-route, and need to leave the paid area of the station to do so (e.g. you are walking along the street), then touch out when exiting the paid area and back in when you re-enter the paid area.

At most stations where you would be likely to change trains, there will be barriers so it will be pretty obvious what you have to do. There are only a handful of situations where you would not encounter barriers, e.g. if changing to/from the DLR.

 

[Hadders]

But I’m sure the notices above them are locally produced GTR ones. I’ll check tomorrow morning as I’ll be using one of those validators to touch in.

Here’s a picture of the notice above the validators at Finsbury Park.

 

[jfollows]

Here’s a picture of the notice above the validators at Finsbury Park.

I know it's trying to be helpful, but I find this a little confusing, I think it should say "only use this validator if ...." which would be clearer to me anyway.

 

[Nottingham59]

I find this a little confusing

It is totally confusing. Does it mean that all interchange passengers should touch at this validator if they pass it? If it means that, then it should say so. If it doesn't mean that, then it is mis-leading.

I assume that notice is there purely to reduce the inconvenience to gateline staff who otherwise will have to deal with passengers trying to get out of the gateline when they have already touched out at this validator. So like most things on the railway, it's there for the internal operational convenience rather than helping from the customer perspective.

 

[Watershed]

It is totally confusing. Does it mean that all interchange passengers should touch at this validator if they pass it? If it means that, then it should say so. If it doesn't mean that, then it is mis-leading.

I assume that notice is there purely to reduce the inconvenience to gateline staff who otherwise will have to deal with passengers trying to get out of the gateline when they have already touched out at this validator. So like most things on the railway, it's there for the internal operational convenience rather than helping from the customer perspective.

It's a continuation exit validator so I don't thinking touching it has any adverse impact if you do continue your journey or touch out at the barriers.

Whilst the notice isn't 100% clear, it's still customer friendly to have a validator there at all - they could insist on passengers exiting the gateline and re-entering to switch between paper tickets and Oyster.

 

[Nottingham59]

It's a continuation exit validator so I don't thinking touching it has any adverse impact if you do continue your journey or touch out at the barriers.

It does have an impact if you are transferring from the tube to the train and you then get ticket inspection on the train. According to https://oysterfares.com/information-pages/same-station-and-continuation-exits-entries/

"there may be a problem with National Rail RPIs. The exit touch removes the maximum fare which is what the RPIs are looking for when they check the card using a hand-held reader. If they examine the recent journey history on the card it will appear as though you are out of the system and travelling without a validated Oyster card".

 

[Watershed]

It does have an impact if you are transferring from the tube to the train and you then get ticket inspection on the train. According to https://oysterfares.com/information-pages/same-station-and-continuation-exits-entries/

"there may be a problem with National Rail RPIs. The exit touch removes the maximum fare which is what the RPIs are looking for when they check the card using a hand-held reader. If they examine the recent journey history on the card it will appear as though you are out of the system and travelling without a validated Oyster card".

Well yes, but you are still ultimately valid and could prove this if you were issued with a Penalty Fare as a result (through the Oyster statement).

I wouldn't advise touching the validator but doing so isn't fatal.

 

[717001]

Now that Finsbury Park station is barriered the standalone validators are only for passengers changing from paper tickets to Oyster/contactless and vv.

So does that mean someone changing from KeyGo to Oyster has to exit the station to get the KeyGo tap out?

They should work for the Key as well - if it doesn't this should be flagged with Great Northern / Thameslink

I know it's trying to be helpful, but I find this a little confusing, I think it should say "only use this validator if ...." which would be clearer to me anyway.

There is a current Network Rail-led project preparing to update much of the signage around the "rail" areas of Finsbury Park station.

 

[AndyNLondon]

Here’s a picture of the notice above the validators at Finsbury Park.

It is totally confusing. Does it mean that all interchange passengers should touch at this validator if they pass it? If it means that, then it should say so. If it doesn't mean that, then it is mis-leading.

I assume that notice is there purely to reduce the inconvenience to gateline staff who otherwise will have to deal with passengers trying to get out of the gateline when they have already touched out at this validator. So like most things on the railway, it's there for the internal operational convenience rather than helping from the customer perspective.

Surely the purpose of that sign is to discourage people from queueing up at the validators in the passageway and causing congestion, rather than to do with whether tapping out there upsets the gateline? When Finsbury Park only had barriers on some of the mainline platforms, regular users would have been used to needing to tap out on the readers in that passageway when coming from an un-gated platform, so I think the "don't use this reader if you're exiting the station" message is aimed at telling them about that change.