P&O Ferries - mass redundancies without consultation

[Bletchleyite]

P&O's Twitter is now saying they are unable to run for "the next few days".

If this outcome took them by surprise that's some gross incompetence on the part of the management...

 

[Steddenm]

European Causeway is in Larne
European Highlander is in Cairnryan

There's a P&O vessel in Liverpool and one in Dublin.

 

[yoyothehobo]

P&O's Twitter is now saying they are unable to run for "the next few days".

If this outcome took them by surprise that's some gross incompetence on the part of the management...

Understatement of the century

 

[BayPaul]

They won't. They won't ever have been on these ships. They won't know anything about them. And what is it going to save? The sacked employees are at least entitled to payment in lieu of notice, let alone redundancy payments, and much more likely compensation for unfair dismissal, because the jobs are clearly not redundant.

There is no way you can replace all your staff with agency workers and expect it to run, let alone something technical, with catastrophic consequences if it goes wrong, such as a ferry operation

Remember that maritime legislation is completely different to shore based legislation. I am pretty sure that this would be entirely legal (even though I don't like that fact) even if the vessels were UK flagged. The Maritime Labour Convention, which is effectively the main piece of legislation covering employment rights for seafarers really contains practically nothing about redundancy - all that is needed is 7 days notice, which no doubt will be paid out. All seafarers are effectively on fixed term agreements that last for the few weeks or months they are onboard.

It may well have been possible to bring some of the key agency staff onboard in advance, somewhat covertly. P&O have had various ships laid up over the last few years which would have made this easier. These aren't people off the street. By agency workers in this case, the only difference between them and the people they are replacing is who employs them. I am sure that they would have included people who previously worked on the ships too.

And of course P&O management would have expected the existing crew to lock in, which also gives additional time for the new crew to get familiar whilst this is all sorted out.

I would find it very surprising if they've been able to hire 800 qualified people without anyone noticing?

Surprisingly simple to do, especially at the moment with large numbers of ferries still laid up after Covid. A friend of mine was part of a similar team who took over the Isle of Inishmore from an Irish Ferries crew. It was all kept very secret until they were on the M4 going through Wales.

P&O's Twitter is now saying they are unable to run for "the next few days".

If this outcome took them by surprise that's some gross incompetence on the part of the management...

Of course it didn't take them by surprise, but they had to pretend!

 

[Spartacus]

I'd hope at least that when they finally leave their ships that the sacked crews have commenced a good deal of 'maintenance', with parts stripped, drained of lubrication etc... in other words a massive ball ache to put back into service, but nothing actually damaging.

I despise this kind of thing, wholesale sackings, as well as fire & rehire, whichever this turns out to be, it's practically Victorian in nature.

 

[LucyP]

Oh look, as I said. The agency staff don't exist and can't run the ships. Funny that. They need to sit down with their employees and sort out the terms and conditions.

 

[brad465]

P&O's Twitter is now saying they are unable to run for "the next few days".

If this outcome took them by surprise that's some gross incompetence on the part of the management...

A good way to lose a load of customers as well, more so than if they couldn't run for a few days due to bad weather.

 

[cactustwirly]

Yes. It's usual that when someone is made redundant they are immediately escorted from the premises by security and paid in lieu of notice.



Do DFDS employ UK staff at Dover? The Harwich operation didn't when that existed, they were from the Philippines.

Yes they do.
Dover to Dunkirk uses Dover flagged vessels with British crew. Dover to Calais is french crew with french registered vessels

 

[Grumpy Git]

Shameless.

I've always wondered how high the walls will need to be on the homes of the 0.1% who own 99.9% of the wealth?

 

[SerialComplain]

Even so, they could have, er, jumped ship to a different employer or even industry if employment rights were important to them. I wonder whether any who are RMT members sought or were given advice when the company was sold?

Surely employment rights are important to everyone?

 

[LucyP]

It's also usual (and required by UK law) to have a consultation process before anyone is made redundant. This isn't redundancy, because the jobs are not redundant. It's fire and rehire and it really has backfired. P&O have been very badly advised. The government will be forced to intervene now because there are going to be supply chain implications.

 

[Dai Corner]

Surely employment rights are important to everyone?

Some people prefer to work for the highest payer and accept that they might sometimes be unemployed. Some even go into business on their own account with all the financial risk that involves.

 

[LucyP]

I don't understand why people are saying that employees could have moved just because their UK based employer was ultimately owned by a foreign company. There are plenty of transport workers in that situation in the UK, let alone other industries. Are people really saying that when they find out that their train or bus company is ultimately owned by a German or French or Italian company, then they should leave? And how is that any different from working for a "British" company that is actually registered in the Cayman Islands for tax purposes?

 

[brad465]

It's also usual (and required by UK law) to have a consultation process before anyone is made redundant. This isn't redundancy, because the jobs are not redundant. It's fire and rehire and it really has backfired. P&O have been very badly advised. The government will be forced to intervene now because there are going to be supply chain implications.

They'll also have to intervene for political reasons. Labour have strongly criticised fire and rehire and plans to ban it are party policy, if the Government don't intervene or do enough then Labour and other opposition will have a strong standing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A good way to lose a load of customers as well, more so than if they couldn't run for a few days due to bad weather.

They're putting people on DFDS, so provided that's at a reasonable time for them I doubt it will bother many, though DFDS don't take foot passengers.

More of an issue is it seems a Rotterdam day trip who are now stranded with their luggage on board and nobody willing to get it for them.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I believe that is what the RMT plan, however P&O are also planning to use reasonable force (!) to remove them, as they will be trespassing.

This is likely to get very nasty.

Is there anything stopping the crews from sailing and "sitting in" at sea to make removal more difficult?

 

[Dai Corner]

I don't understand why people are saying that employees could have moved just because their UK based employer was ultimately owned by a foreign company. There are plenty of transport workers in that situation in the UK, let alone other industries. Are people really saying that when they find out that their train or bus company is ultimately owned by a German or French or Italian company, then they should leave? And how is that any different from working for a "British" company that is actually registered in the Cayman Islands for tax purposes?

Because the impression given by preceding posts was that the employees involved had no UK employment rights (or had lost them due to the reflagging of the ships, or otherwise).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some people prefer to work for the highest payer and accept that they might sometimes be unemployed. Some even go into business on their own account with all the financial risk that involves.

Before IR35 came along, being a contractor (something which comes with no employment rights whatsoever) was very popular in the IT industry, for instance, because it brought in more money.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Is there anything stopping the crews from sailing and "sitting in" at sea to make removal more difficult?

I assume then you would be moving from trespass to piracy of which i daresay the charges would be more severe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there anything stopping the crews from sailing and "sitting in" at sea to make removal more difficult?

I suspect preventing this is exactly why they ensured the ships were berthed before saying anything. If they were already at sea, a very silly game of chase could have ensued.

 

[LucyP]

There has been talk about law changes relating to fire and rehire, but they won't change it, whatever Labour say. It isn't a vote winner, because it gives the unions too much power, and it takes industrial relations back to the bad old days. What they might do is look at the definition of Some Other Substantial Reason in the Employment Rights Act. Ultimately that's what these cases boil down to at the Tribunal. The employer will argue that the SOSR is that they cannot afford to employ the employees on £X per hour any longer for various economic reasons, but only on £X minus something.

 

[yoyothehobo]

I do wonder if this is a ploy to dispose of the company altogether. It is making a significant loss and they can at least now say "we tried to do something different" and flog the ferries to DFDS/Stena/other where wanted and scrap anything else.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do wonder if this is a ploy to dispose of the company altogether. It is making a significant loss and they can at least now say "we tried to do something different" and flog the ferries to DFDS/Stena/other where wanted and scrap anything else.

A bit pointless when nothing is stopping them just doing that.

 

[Busaholic]

There is no way you can replace all your staff with agency workers and expect it to run, let alone something technical, with catastrophic consequences if it goes wrong, such as a ferry operation

Almost exactly 35 years since the Herald of Free Enterprise left Zeebrugge with its bow door open, leading to the death of 197. Does P&O not care that an event similar to that might well recur with an inexperienced and/or uninterested crew?

 

[LucyP]

Is the company making a loss? The latest accounts only cover 2020, but the profit and profit margin was up.

 

[kylemore]

No doubt the replacement crews will have all the correct tickets however I can still see the MCA getting involved on safety grounds as they will be unfamiliar with the vessels. Does this involve officers as well as ratings?

 

[Trainbike46]

I do wonder if this is a ploy to dispose of the company altogether. It is making a significant loss and they can at least now say "we tried to do something different" and flog the ferries to DFDS/Stena/other where wanted and scrap anything else.

If that was the aim, it might have been more profitable to just sell certain routes to other companies, as has been done before by DFDS among others?

 

[LucyP]

I think the insurers will very much care. Imagine that phone call.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Almost exactly 35 years since the Herald of Free Enterprise left Zeebrugge with its bow door open, leading to the death of 197. Does P&O not care that sn event similar to that might well recur with an inexperienced and/or uninterested crew?

That event would be unlikely, because there are now indications on the bridge as to the state of the doors. That there weren't was the biggest crime (I think that's the right word) of that whole thing.

That said, you could kind of get the indifference to that, because it wasn't only the doors being open that caused it, like most air crashes there were about 5 factors that led to it. It was at the time common for ships to sail in complete safety with the doors wide open throughout, the lip of the car deck is something like 5 metres above the waterline most of the time. The Crash Bang Wallop podcast did an excellent sum-up of it, though sadly there are no more new episodes as one of the presenters has passed away.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'd be interested to hear John Prescott's opinion on this turn of events.
He once had the Grant Shapps role as SoS for Transport, having earlier been a sponsored MP for the National Union of Seamen.