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P&O Ferries - mass redundancies without consultation

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brad465

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Ministers are reviewing all P&O contracts across Government and Shapps is questioning if the move was legal:


All P&O Ferries contracts across government will be reviewed in response to the way it sacked 800 workers.
Staff have been protesting after many were told without warning by video message on Thursday that it would be "their final day of employment".
In a letter to the company, Transport Secretary Grant Shapps said he was "deeply concerned" at the move and questioned whether it was legal.
P&O said it was a "last resort" to save the business.
Mr Shapps urged the company to pause the redundancies announced.
Protests have been staged in Dover, Liverpool, Hull and elsewhere in the UK against the P&O redundancies.

Business Secretary Kwasi Kwarteng has also written to the ferry operator's chief executive demanding answers to P&O Ferries' handling of the redundancies.

Mr Kwarteng's letter to its boss Peter Hebblethwaite says the company "appears to have failed" to follow the correct process for making large-scale redundancies, which would include consulting with unions and staff representatives and notifying him through the Insolvency Service and the Redundancy Payment Service.
The letter says failure to notify is "a criminal offence and can lead to an unlimited fine".
Mr Kwarteng's questions to P&O Ferries include asking for details on the exact number of redundancies and how many of these involved any consultation, as well as the location of work for each staff member dismissed.
Additionally, he asked if staff made redundant were offered alternative roles directly for P&O Ferries or similar roles on new terms and conditions through an agency.
The business secretary also raises the company's previous application for government support when Covid lockdowns disrupted travel.
"It is particularly depressing that this should happen given the millions of pounds of British taxpayer support P&O companies received from the furlough scheme," he wrote.

UPDATE: Shapps and Kwarteng appeared to send letters to the Chairman who resigned in December last year:


It seems like Grant Shapps and Kwasi Kwarteng have written strongly worded letters to a man who resigned as P&O chairman on 16th December 2021...
 
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Typhoon

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Unbelievably, Natalie Elphicke MP attended the protests alongside unions at Dover today.

This is a woman who voted against ending ‘fire and rehire’, and her government wants to restrict protests and are not exactly fans of unions.

The nerve! Thankfully though it appears the lovely lady was heckled.
The next General Election is just over two years away. In that time, people in many parts of the country will have largely forgotten this. Those that won't will be those largely affected. Hull and Liverpool are Labour so HMG won't worry about them. Dover and the Cairnryan are held by Conservatives, and are much smaller so a greater proportion of the voters will be affected. Mrs Elphicke is right to worry about her future employment; she has a track record of blaming everyone and doing nothing. I'm surprised she hasn't blamed Macron, it normally is 'France' or 'The French'.

I don't know who owns Dover port so there maybe some "cross charging" going on but I doubt it.
I can't see that you have had an answer (apologies if you have) but is is operated and owned by Dover Harbour Board, which is a Statutory Corporation, so effectively us (via HMG). The Board members are a load of suits so don't expect anything more than token gestures. They are there to make money,
 

mmh

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Unbelievably, Natalie Elphicke MP attended the protests alongside unions at Dover today.

This is a woman who voted against ending ‘fire and rehire’, and her government wants to restrict protests and are not exactly fans of unions.

The nerve! Thankfully though it appears the lovely lady was heckled.
It's perfectly possible to have different opinions on different things. Oh my, an MP supporting constituents, whatever next?

I note Starmer is silent. Has he got covid again? He is really very unfortunate to be "ill" so often.

Meanwhile politicians of all colours have condemned this.
 

alex397

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It's perfectly possible to have different opinions on different things. Oh my, an MP supporting constituents, whatever next?
Supporting her constituents? Showing up for a photo shoot more like.

Well she certainly didn’t seem popular amongst the protestors, considering they were shouting ‘shame on you’ at her.

Doing some research about her would show her track record. Pretty much a wannabe Priti Patel
 

permarquis

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It's perfectly possible to have different opinions on different things. Oh my, an MP supporting constituents, whatever next?

I note Starmer is silent. Has he got covid again? He is really very unfortunate to be "ill" so often.

Meanwhile politicians of all colours have condemned this.

Perhaps, as an MP for the party currently in government, her constituents expect more in the way of "support" than a photo opportunity.
 

brad465

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It's perfectly possible to have different opinions on different things. Oh my, an MP supporting constituents, whatever next?

I note Starmer is silent. Has he got covid again? He is really very unfortunate to be "ill" so often.

Meanwhile politicians of all colours have condemned this.
He hasn't been, having sent this tweet earlier (he may have done media interviews that I'm not aware of):


I’ve spoken with staff sacked by P&O Ferries. I’m furious for them and stand with them. The Tories have created an environment where a bad employer thinks they have license to tear up staff contracts. Labour will introduce a new deal for working people to make work more secure.

The main voice in Labour on this issue so far has been Louise Haigh, who's the Shadow Transport Secretary.
 

geoffk

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This doesn’t appear to be a consequence of Brexit as the UK’s labour laws were less favourable to workers even while we were in the EU. French workers enjoy greater protection than their British colleagues thanks to the Code du Travail (labour code) and they are not affected by P&O’s decision. A French company must follow a strict procedure which includes calling a meeting with five days’ notice, offering retraining then sending written notice of redundancy with at least seven days’ notice.

However, leave campaigners have said that ending freedom of movement would prevent British workers being undercut by labour from overseas. I read that the RMT (and ASLEF, for that matter) urged their members to vote leave. It would be interesting to know how many took this advice!
 

43096

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This is what "management" are paid to do - to manage. It's why they get paid more than deck-hands.
Yes, it might lead to an impasse but at that point you have been seen to have acted properly and you have options you can then pursue.
The fact seems to be that they didn't want to do this, because it's hard. P&O management wanted a simple way out which involved the least amount of time and effort on their part. If their parent company's claims mean anything, there was no problem bankrolling P&O during the process, the end result of which would have been better for P&O management, other employees, and P&O customers.
What they've ended up doing is the worst possible outcome for all three.
So we come back to the theory that the desire is to take P&O Ferries out of existence instead.
And you reckon they’d get anywhere with that approach with the RMT? Given the RMT’s attitude to every dispute is belligerent, I can see how P&O have got to the position they have, regardless of the wrongs of it.
 

brad465

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This doesn’t appear to be a consequence of Brexit as the UK’s labour laws were less favourable to workers even while we were in the EU. French workers enjoy greater protection than their British colleagues thanks to the Code du Travail (labour code) and they are not affected by P&O’s decision. A French company must follow a strict procedure which includes calling a meeting with five days’ notice, offering retraining then sending written notice of redundancy with at least seven days’ notice.

However, leave campaigners have said that ending freedom of movement would prevent British workers being undercut by labour from overseas. I read that the RMT (and ASLEF, for that matter) urged their members to vote leave. It would be interesting to know how many took this advice!
The story has annoyed Brexit supporters, including Farage, and as you say, the undercutting of British workers in this way does not look good politically. I'm not sure what the RMT were thinking on that, but it may have had something to do with the horseshoe theory, where far left and far right folk were both likely to support Brexit, however they will have supported it for different reasons. The Brexit the RMT might have wanted was definitely not going to happen under the right wing politicians fronting the main campaign.

On the subject of immigration, would the foreign agency workers being brought in meet the points' requirements for this job? If not, was an exception granted and why? The new staff also must have been trained up and cleared in advance of yesterday's announcement, meaning the Home Office must have had advance notice.
 
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DDB

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The story has annoyed Brexit supporters, including Farage, and as you say, the undercutting of British workers in this way does not look good politically. I'm not sure what the RMT were thinking on that, but it may have had something to do with the horseshoe theory, where far left and far right folk were both likely to support Brexit, however they will have supported it for different reasons. The Brexit the RMT might have wanted was definitely not going to happen under the right wing politicians fronting the main campaign.

On the subject of immigration, would the foreign agency workers being brought in meet the points' requirements for this job? If not, was an exception granted and why? The new staff also must have been trained up and cleared in advance of yesterday's announcement, meaning the Home Office must have had advance notice.
I think entering a country to join a ship has very different visa requirements than entering to work. Training if there was any might be stretching it a bit.
 

Sean Emmett

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RMT enthusiastic supporters of Brexit. Reaped what they sowed. Feel sorry for the employees (having been made redundant 3x myself).
Lions led by donkeys.
 

Cloud Strife

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The days of duty free price wars probably aren't coming back. The money is in freight, which wouldn't be impacted. Carrying a few more or less motorists because of duty free special tickets isn't going to make a dent in profits or losses. If someone wants to take on P&O, they'll look at undercutting them on freight.

True, the real barrier for entry to this market is the fact that you need to have enough ships to offer flexibility for freight. I can't see any entrant making Dover-Calais work without specific circumstances (the Irish landbridge) or without at least four vessels.
 

DanNCL

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Unbelievably, Natalie Elphicke MP attended the protests alongside unions at Dover today.

This is a woman who voted against ending ‘fire and rehire’, and her government wants to restrict protests and are not exactly fans of unions.

The nerve! Thankfully though it appears the lovely lady was heckled.
She even joined in the chants of “shame on you” before she realised they were aimed at her :lol:
 

BayPaul

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True, the real barrier for entry to this market is the fact that you need to have enough ships to offer flexibility for freight. I can't see any entrant making Dover-Calais work without specific circumstances (the Irish landbridge) or without at least four vessels.
I agree. Though I'd say 3 ships rather than 4. That is what Irish Ferries have just built up to, and the number that DFDS have to Calais. Historically, Seafrance and MyFerryLink also both had 3 in operation for most of their history. That allows 15 sailings per day, which is a decent enough frequency.

On the other routes, the barriers to entry are rather different. Berth availability is probably the limiting factor for any new company to come in, unless they were to buy any facilities off P&O. Stena could probably add capacity on all three links with ease - Birkenhead to Dublin would be an easy link to introduce, perhaps with a Visentini ropax or two. They already run Killingholme to Hoek for freight, on freighters with decent passenger capacity, so adding a passenger service wouldn't be impossible, though it would need passenger facilities built at Killingholme.
Adding capacity at Cairnryan would just involve finding a suitable 3rd ferry.
 

matrix24

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This is terrible news, specifically for all the staff involved. I really hope this disgraceful "fire everyone" thing isn't true

I'm pretty sure Stena Line employ a lot of UK staff on their routes parallel to P&O routes. Does anyone know for sure?
My son works for Stena, had extensive training. First off vessel, then on. This included firefighting, lifeboats, first aid etc. Also stays to one vessel due to changes in different classes. All are recruited in the counties they serve.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Norwind is an hour from Dublin, having left Liverpool at 1000.
Of course it might not be in passenger service, though the P&O Ferries site says "services have resumed" on that route.
 

jfollows

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Guardian reports that it's in service: (https://www.theguardian.com/busines...its-po-ferries-contracts-after-staff-sackings)
After reports the firm intended to resume the Liverpool-Dublin route with its Norbank ship on Saturday, the shadow transport secretary, Louise Haigh, said: “P&O must not be allowed to sail today with replacement agency labour for loyal workers unjustly sacked this week. Strong words from the government are meaningless – they must step in and act.”

After at least one of the company’s ferries was reported to have left Liverpool on Saturday morning, the Labour MP for Sefton Central, Bill Esterson, tweeted: “Looks like one of the P&O ships has left for Dublin. So who is the crew?”
 

Cloud Strife

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I agree. Though I'd say 3 ships rather than 4. That is what Irish Ferries have just built up to, and the number that DFDS have to Calais. Historically, Seafrance and MyFerryLink also both had 3 in operation for most of their history. That allows 15 sailings per day, which is a decent enough frequency.

On the other routes, the barriers to entry are rather different. Berth availability is probably the limiting factor for any new company to come in, unless they were to buy any facilities off P&O. Stena could probably add capacity on all three links with ease - Birkenhead to Dublin would be an easy link to introduce, perhaps with a Visentini ropax or two. They already run Killingholme to Hoek for freight, on freighters with decent passenger capacity, so adding a passenger service wouldn't be impossible, though it would need passenger facilities built at Killingholme.
Adding capacity at Cairnryan would just involve finding a suitable 3rd ferry.

Irish Ferries are rather relying on the Irish landbridge one-stop-shop though, aren't they? With DFDS, I'm guessing that they offer a lot of flexibility for their bigger clients, so Calais/Dunkerque are effectively one route for them with six ships. That's why I suspect that 4 would be needed, perhaps 3 passenger vessels with at least one additional freighter to provide additional resilience.

Killingholme-Hoek would seem to be a no brainer if P&O do fall, although I could see Stena getting a very good deal to operate from Hull. I'm not sure about Birkenhead-Dublin though - is the Liverpool-Dublin route really that successful for P&O? Reading online, it seems that there are a lot of issues with the P&O service and timekeeping, and the boats themselves are very spartan.

Although, this is one route where you'd think that they could make an absolute killing on offering a cruiseferry experience, similar to the Baltic ferries.
 

BayPaul

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Irish Ferries are rather relying on the Irish landbridge one-stop-shop though, aren't they? With DFDS, I'm guessing that they offer a lot of flexibility for their bigger clients, so Calais/Dunkerque are effectively one route for them with six ships. That's why I suspect that 4 would be needed, perhaps 3 passenger vessels with at least one additional freighter to provide additional resilience.

Killingholme-Hoek would seem to be a no brainer if P&O do fall, although I could see Stena getting a very good deal to operate from Hull. I'm not sure about Birkenhead-Dublin though - is the Liverpool-Dublin route really that successful for P&O? Reading online, it seems that there are a lot of issues with the P&O service and timekeeping, and the boats themselves are very spartan.

Although, this is one route where you'd think that they could make an absolute killing on offering a cruiseferry experience, similar to the Baltic ferries.
I think the landbridge is a bit of a disraction really, that they have used to try to disarm the competition. The amount of trade that produces is fairly small in comparison to the total capacity. Personally, I think this is a long term plan for running the route as a genuine competition to DFDS and P&O.

I agree that the Dublin route should be a ideal cruise ferry one, and it is typical of P&O that they never made any attempt to do that. It is also a very important freight link, saving the drive along the A55 is certainly worthwhile, so something more like Pride of Hull would seem to be ideal for the route, rather than a pure cruiseferry.

A bit off topic really though!
 

SerialComplain

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Some people prefer to work for the highest payer and accept that they might sometimes be unemployed. Some even go into business on their own account with all the financial risk that involves

Some people prefer to work for the highest payer and accept that they might sometimes be unemployed. Some even go into business on their own account with all the financial risk that involves.
Sure, go into business for yourself, do your own accounts, take the risk and gain the rewards. But that's not what's happening here is it?
 

Dai Corner

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Sure, go into business for yourself, do your own accounts, take the risk and gain the rewards. But that's not what's happening here is it?
For all we know (the former employees aren't talking publicly) P&O might have been the highest paying in the industry, in exchange for less secure employment. They certainly think people will work for them for considerably less than they used to pay.
 

jon0844

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I admit to finding that quite enjoyable to watch.

She got her photo in the papers though, which hides the fact she was ridiculed - so from a PR perspective, she likely thinks she did fine. More people will probably see the photos than the video (watching it over and over doesn't count!!).
 

Typhoon

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Things have got a little murkier
Whitehall officials tried to justify P&O Ferries’ sacking of 800 workers by telling ministers it would “ensure that they remain a key player in the UK market for years to come through restructuring”, a leaked memo shows.

The briefing document shows the Department for Transport failed to challenge the company’s decision to dismiss crew members with immediate effect, possibly in breach of employment law.

From https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/officials-failed-to-challenge-p-amp-o-firings-mv06ldsv9
(Sorry can't quote more - its behind a paywall and I need the cash more than Murdoch.)
 

jfollows

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Thanks for the pointer, here's the full article: (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/officials-failed-to-challenge-p-amp-o-firings-mv06ldsv9)

To summarise, the article says that "government" was informed of the plan to sack 800 workers at P&O in advance, although probably only just, as in a day or so in advance rather than what might be the legal requirement of more notice discussed earlier in this thread. However this information probably didn't make it to ministers in time, who might have reacted to it if they had known, and government officials had tended to side with P&O in their briefings. It doesn't seem to unreasonable to think that politicians would have reacted far more negatively to the plans, had they known about them, and indeed did condemn the plan when they learned about it.

As I mentioned before, it seems relatively easy to inform "government" but the implications of the information then seem to grind through civil service briefings which attempt to distil the key information but also delay its transmission in important cases. Some wisdom of hindsight of course, as often is the case.

Officials failed to challenge P&O firings
Caroline Wheeler, Jim Armitage, Nicholas Hellen and Hannah Al-Othman

Saturday March 19 2022, 10.00pm, The Sunday Times

Whitehall officials tried to justify P&O Ferries’ sacking of 800 workers by telling ministers it would “ensure that they remain a key player in the UK market for years to come through restructuring”, a leaked memo shows.

The briefing document shows the Department for Transport failed to challenge the company’s decision to dismiss crew members with immediate effect, possibly in breach of employment law.

Written by a senior official, it was shared across the government, including with the prime minister’s private office, before P&O told staff in a video recording on Thursday that it was their final day at the company.

Cabinet ministers then condemned the redundancies as a public backlash ensued. Grant Shapps, the transport secretary, gave P&O’s chief executive, Peter Hebblethwaite, a public dressing-down.

This weekend Shapps ordered a review of all government contracts with P&O Ferries and its parent company, DP World. Unions want DP World’s London Gateway and Southampton ports to be blocked from having “freeport” status under a flagship government programme to create mini tax havens around the country.

Fresh details of the mass sacking emerged this weekend.

Before the announcement of the redundancies, a recruitment firm was running job advertisements aimed at workers in eastern Europe and the Baltics. Another crewing agency, appointed by P&O, offered sacked staff a sweetener if they agreed to return to work through the agency. They would receive £19,666.67 after a year if they signed by March 24, and half that if they waited until March 31.

Employees said that they could lose their redundancy payouts if they talked to the media, but Phil Lees, 62, an engineering officer in Dover who had worked for the ferry operator for 34 years, said: “They repaid me by basically throwing all my service and everything straight in the dustbin.”

There were also warnings taxpayers could end up bailing out the firm’s pension fund. It has a £146 million deficit, much of it long-standing, which if not paid off will affect the benefits of retired staff from dozens of other companies that pool their pensions through the Merchant Navy Ratings Pensions Fund.

The taxpayer is exposed to the tune of £20 million because the Royal Fleet Auxiliary, which provides support to the navy and the marines, is a so-called sponsoring employer of the scheme, as are the British Antarctic Survey and the National Environment Research Council.

Baroness Altmann, a former pensions minister, said: “Taxpayers are on the hook for their share of liabilities in the scheme.”

A P&O spokesman said: “We are going to honour all our commitments.”

On Saturday P&O restored its service from Liverpool to Dublin. It expects to restore its cross-Channel ferry service on Friday.

Shapps said vessels would not be allowed to sail with inexperienced crews and has ordered the Maritime and Coastguard Agency to inspect all vessels before they return to service.

Although ministers are now acting, the memo shows the government’s instinct was to defend the company’s decision. It states: “We understand that P&O Ferries have an intention to try and re-employ many staff on new terms and conditions or use agency staff to restart routes; they estimate disruption to services lasting 10 days.”

The document adds: “Without these decisions an estimated 2,200 staff would likely lose their jobs. These changes will align them with other companies in the market who have undertaken a large reduction in staff.”

Shapps received a copy. Sources close to him say he was “blindsided” by the ferry company’s announcement and had no warning — even though officials in his department were told on Wednesday.

A Whitehall source said: “Officials appear to have initially bought the P&O Ferries line that this was essential to save the company from imminent collapse. But talk of agency staff and getting operations up and running in just ten days should have set alarm bells ringing that this was no ordinary redundancy announcement with a proper consultation process.

“Ministers were incandescent when they were made aware of what was taking place and intervened as quickly as possible.”

Louise Haigh, the shadow transport minister, is expected to try to force a vote on Monday on the fire-and-rehire practices being used by the company.

The Department for Transport said: “This was an internal government memo which, as standard practice, outlined what officials had been told by P&O Ferries shortly before their announcement was made.

“This was sent before ministers were advised of the full details and as soon as they were informed, they made clear their outrage at the way in which P&O staff had been dismissed.

“It is clear from the memo that our immediate priority was to work with unions to ensure workers’ rights continue to be protected and the transport secretary has urged the company to sit down with workers and reconsider this action.”

Has anyone actually managed to validate the loosing 100m a year claim yet?
Also, from today's Sunday Times business section, the loss is only a recent thing, and some comments I've seen in newspapers report an expectation of significant rising demand in the near future post-Covid.
1647768506034.png

The Sunday Times also observed that Irish Ferries, which has been competing on the cross-channel route from Dover since June 2021, had previously done what P&O did last week, but back in 2005 - it replaced its workers with cheap foreign agency labour using strong-arm tactics. It reports people in the industry describing P&O's acting chief executive as being inexperienced and out of his depth. So maybe "something had to be done", but not this, seems to be the main commentary. DP World is seen as controlling the strings and making the call for the action taken.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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We seem to be back to "all services suspended" today, even on the Liverpool-Dublin route.
Norbank and Norbay are docked in Liverpool.
 

davetheguard

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To summarise, the article says that "government" was informed of the plan to sack 800 workers at P&O in advance, although probably only just, as in a day or so in advance rather than what might be the legal requirement of more notice discussed earlier in this thread.

Surely the "replacement" foreign workers will have needed visas now that freedom of movement has been stopped by Brexit? And those self same visas are only obtainable from the Government. That can't have happened overnight; it's surely weeks & weeks if the well-known Ukrainian delays are anything to go by.

Does this mean that the government either knew well in advance, or one part of government doesn't talk to another? Or perhaps both!
 
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paul1609

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Surely the "replacement" foreign workers will have needed visas now that freedom of movement has been stopped by Brexit? And those self same visas are only obtainable from the Government. That can't have happened overnight; it's surely weeks & weeks if the well-known Ukrainian delays are anything to go by.

The government either knew well in advance, or one part of government doesn't talk to another. Perhaps both!
Seafarers don't need a visa to join a ship. You enter a country on your journey and exit passport control before your ship leaves, the interim is not treated as employment.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Those agency crew that have been quoted in the media seem to be British.
They are not necessarily "foreign workers".
A good few are also likely to be Irish, for whom there is no visa requirement to work in the UK.
 
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