P&O Ferries to permanently stop accepting foot passengers on their Dover to Calais route.

[johncrossley]

No it isn't. The Channel Tunnel has been largely irrelevant to this incredibly niche market, it's Low-cost Airlines your ire should be turned on.

Low cost airlines didn't get big unless the early 2000s. Short notice rail travel became much more inconvenient and much more expensive soon after the Tunnel opened.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

The Channel Tunnel should never have been built. It made short notice cross Channel rail travel unviable except for business travel.

The only reason why prices on Eurostar are so high is because they have no competition, so they can charge whatever they want. DB (German state operator) had plans around 2010, when they ordered new ICE3's (even dragged one to St Pancras for a photo op), but they fell through. Renfe (Spanish state operator) expressed interest in 2021 I believe, with a potential 2028 launch...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ridiculous but true

It is ridiculous. Eurostar don't have to operate the pricing policy they do, it has nothing to do with the physical infrastructure. They do have to have compulsory reservations, but plenty of trains the world over have those but the fare for each seat is fixed without any yield management.

Low cost airlines didn't get big unless the early 2000s. Short notice rail travel became much more inconvenient and much more expensive soon after the Tunnel opened.

No, it didn't. The ferries to e.g. Oostende still existed until about 2000, it was the airlines that killed them, not E*.

Anyway, who went to Paris at short notice when it took 8 hours?

 

[johncrossley]

No, it didn't. The ferries to e.g. Oostende still existed until about 2000, it was the airlines that killed them, not E*.

Anyway, who went to Paris at short notice when it took 8 hours?

The ferries still ran, but the special through fares were withdrawn soon after Eurostar started.

Before Eurostar, scheduled flights were still expensive and were still primarily for business travel so rail-sea-rail was the main affordable way of travelling abroad.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The ferries still ran, but the special through fares were withdrawn soon after Eurostar started.

No, they weren't. TCV ticketing existed until the mid 2000s when I think SNCF withdrew. I had one in 1997, a through BIJ/EuroYouth discounted fare from Charing X to Hamburg!

Getting that little paper handwritten booklet in my hands as the start of a year living in another country (at age 20) was possibly one of the most exciting purchases of my life.

 

[zwk500]

The ferries still ran, but the special through fares were withdrawn soon after Eurostar started.

Before Eurostar, scheduled flights were still expensive and were still primarily for business travel so rail-sea-rail was the main affordable way of travelling abroad.

Deregulation of EU airspace (allowing any EU airline to operate in any EU Country) occurred in 1992, at exactly the same time Eurostar opened. The opening up of the European air market is what led to the low-cost air market exploding.

 

[AdamWW]

Anyway, who went to Paris at short notice when it took 8 hours?

But it's not just about someone saying "I think I'll pop to Paris tomorrow", is it?

For a start Eurostar prices don't just get expensive the day before travel so "short notice" could be weeks or more.

Also, it can be useful or even essential not to have to commit yourself weeks or months ahead of a trip even though you have it planned - for example if there's a reason a holiday might be cancelled or you might have to cut it short that insurance wouldn't cover.

 

[zwk500]

Anyway, who went to Paris at short notice when it took 8 hours?

Paris not so much, but day trips to Calais (especially a hypermarket Wine bin) I can see as being quite popular. The ferry is only 1h30 or so each way, it can take that long to get to London from the coast at times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Paris not so much, but day trips to Calais (especially a hypermarket Wine bin) I can see as being quite popular. The ferry is only 1h30 or so each way, it can take that long to get to London from the coast at times.

To a hypermarket for wine on a train? It's only worth it if you buy more than most would carry.

If it was a viable market, though, the coaches would already be doing it via the tunnel. Connex tried it but it didn't really work.

 

[zwk500]

To a hypermarket for wine on a train? It's only worth it if you buy more than most would carry.

Foot passenger on the ferry, day out in Calais on the beach then pick up a case of wine on the way home.

If it was a viable market, though, the coaches would already be doing it via the tunnel. Connex tried it but it didn't really work.

True this.

 

[paul1609]

Foot passenger on the ferry, day out in Calais on the beach then pick up a case of wine on the way home.

True this.

Take it you've never been to Calais!
Theres much better beaches in Kent. Calais only has 2 hypermarkets Carrefour at Cite d' Europe, near the tunnel and Auchen, near the tunnel. The town has Carrefour Expresses, one larger city supermarket and a Lidl. The hypermarkets are 2 buses away from the ferry terminal or a taxi drive.
Im not a wine drinker but I can't see that the price advantage v a UK Oddbins is worth carting a case into a taxi, through the terminal on to the bus, through passport control twice, back on to the bus, up the stairs on the ship, back down again and then on a taxi to the station.
Whilst Its a longer sea journey and Ive said it before Dieppe (and the surrounding towns and villages) is a much much better location for a short break on the North France Coast. Its much easier to get to Newhaven by train the terminal is a 200 metre walk from the platform at Newhaven Town.
Theres a reason why there isn't much day trip foot passenger business to Calais any more!

 

[Struner]

No, they weren't. TCV ticketing existed until the mid 2000s when I think SNCF withdrew. I had one in 1997, a through BIJ/EuroYouth discounted fare from Charing X to Hamburg!

Getting that little paper handwritten booklet in my hands as the start of a year living in another country (at age 20) was possibly one of the most exciting purchases of my life.

(thumb up) - Hoek van Holland - Harwich was mine. ♥️

 

[zwk500]

Take it you've never been to Calais!
Theres much better beaches in Kent. Calais only has 2 hypermarkets Carrefour at Cite d' Europe, near the tunnel and Auchen, near the tunnel. The town has Carrefour Expresses, one larger city supermarket and a Lidl. The hypermarkets are 2 buses away from the ferry terminal or a taxi drive.
Im not a wine drinker but I can't see that the price advantage v a UK Oddbins is worth carting a case into a taxi, through the terminal on to the bus, through passport control twice, back on to the bus, up the stairs on the ship, back down again and then on a taxi to the station.
Whilst Its a longer sea journey and Ive said it before Dieppe (and the surrounding towns and villages) is a much much better location for a short break on the North France Coast. Its much easier to get to Newhaven by train the terminal is a 200 metre walk from the platform at Newhaven Town.
Theres a reason why there isn't much day trip foot passenger business to Calais any more!

Agree completely on Dieppe - you can do some very nice day trip/weekend breaks in that part of Normandy.

 

[AlbertBeale]

It is ridiculous. Eurostar don't have to operate the pricing policy they do, it has nothing to do with the physical infrastructure. They do have to have compulsory reservations, but plenty of trains the world over have those but the fare for each seat is fixed without any yield management.



No, it didn't. The ferries to e.g. Oostende still existed until about 2000, it was the airlines that killed them, not E*.

Anyway, who went to Paris at short notice when it took 8 hours?

In the past, I've gone by train/ferry to Paris at just hours' notice; and also Brussels-London and back via Ostend at a couple of days' notice, to pop back for a meeting in London while staying in Brussels. The (then) relatively seamless journey, combined with no short-notice price penalty, made that feasible and practical. There are times when I'd find it convenient to still be able to do that if the train-boat link, with through tickets, still functioned.

To a hypermarket for wine on a train? It's only worth it if you buy more than most would carry.

If it was a viable market, though, the coaches would already be doing it via the tunnel. Connex tried it but it didn't really work.

During the years when the Cheap Day Return London-Calais tickets existed, I made many trips over for the day - for all sorts of reasons (including shopping, on occasions; sometimes just for a "different" day out). Sometimes I took my bike, which speeded things up to/from the station at each end, and (in those days) getting on and off the boat too - as well as getting into town at the French end of course. (You can get quite a bit of shopping back if you have a couple of big panniers and a bike rack.

If this option was still available, I'd certainly still do the trip from time to time, and I know others who would too.

Agree completely on Dieppe - you can do some very nice day trip/weekend breaks in that part of Normandy.

Yes - Dieppe is now the best route for rail-sea London-Paris (and it always was a useful alternative to Dover-Calais); though the longer crossing makes it not viable for a day trip.

The real bugbear now is London-Brussels, which has no feasible rail-boat connections at all, despite the integrated port-station at Ostend.

 

[AdamWW]

The real bugbear now is London-Brussels, which has no feasible rail-boat connections at all, despite the integrated port-station at Ostend.

That would have to be ferry to Hoek van Holland then the train I suppose. At least - and despite using the HSL - the trains to Brussels have fixed prices.

(Well, there is an *early bird* price, but that only requires committing to a day, not an actual train, and I think is mostly refundable anyway).

 

[paul1609]

During the years when the Cheap Day Return London-Calais tickets existed, I made many trips over for the day - for all sorts of reasons (including shopping, on occasions; sometimes just for a "different" day out). Sometimes I took my bike, which speeded things up to/from the station at each end, and (in those days) getting on and off the boat too - as well as getting into town at the French end of course. (You can get quite a bit of shopping back if you have a couple of big panniers and a bike rack.

If this option was still available, I'd certainly still do the trip from time to time, and I know others who would too.

Unfortunately despite the fascination with them on this forum, sales of the Calais Ticket had fallen to an average of around one per day over the last decade. In the last few years that the Dover Port Bus ran it mostly ran empty or with less than half a dozen passengers. That's obviously not viable.

 

[riceuten]

The Channel Tunnel should never have been built. It made short notice cross Channel rail travel unviable except for business travel.

That's an interesting, if rather narrow analysis. Surely the tariffs should change rather than the infrastructure?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's an interesting, if rather narrow analysis. Surely the tariffs should change rather than the infrastructure?

If the UK joined Schengen I could have seen a local stopping service through the Tunnel to Calais for commuters once an hour using something like Javelins. But that's as far away as it's ever been.

 

[zwk500]

That's an interesting, if rather narrow analysis. Surely the tariffs should change rather than the infrastructure?

The Channel Tunnel's running costs would need to reduce to allow that to happen. Budget airlines fulfill the short-notice low-cost hop to France market. It's a very, very small number of people who are determined to use the train and boat as part of the trip. It should also be pointed out that only 1 train actually crossed the channel with passengers on it before the tunnel, and the Night Ferry AIUI was not seen as an especially cheap way to do things.

If the UK joined Schengen I could have seen a local stopping service through the Tunnel to Calais for commuters once an hour using something like Javelins. But that's as far away as it's ever been.

Wasn't there quite a good Eurostar service on the Ashford-Calais/Lille hop for commuters? Possibly more by accident than design, but I seem to remember a fair bit of consternation when the e320s came in and Ashford was in danger of losing all its services. Apparently there were a fair few regular travellers who did lots of business in both London and France/Belgium who found the villages around Ashford a very nice place to base themselves.

 

[AdamWW]

The Channel Tunnel's running costs would need to reduce to allow that to happen. Budget airlines fulfill the short-notice low-cost hop to France market. It's a very, very small number of people who are determined to use the train and boat as part of the trip. It should also be pointed out that only 1 train actually crossed the channel with passengers on it before the tunnel, and the Night Ferry AIUI was not seen as an especially cheap way to do things.

Is it the running costs that make the Eurostar so expensive? I had the impression that paying off the capital cost was the problem. I'm sure I've seem someone from Eurostar complaining about that.

And only 1 train per day (or night) did the entire journey, true, but just like many other trips in Europe involving ferries lots of people made the journey by changing from rail onto the ship and back to rail, and the ports were set up to facilitate this so I don't think that's particularly relevant.

 

[zwk500]

Is it the running costs that make the Eurostar so expensive? I had the impression that paying off the capital cost was the problem. I'm sure I've seem someone from Eurostar complaining about that.

Eurotunnel ltd's running costs (or whatever the company is officially called) will include the debt servicing. I highly doubt that's going to come down substantially on the commercial market any time soon, and I can't see any of the respective governments being too keen to take on any of the burden either. But even if you removed the debt from the picture and Eurostar was only asked to pay it's proportion of the actual operational costs, it still isn't going to be cheaper than Easyjet or Ryanair.

And only 1 train per day (or night) did the entire journey, true, but just like many other trips in Europe involving ferries lots of people made the journey by changing from rail onto the ship and back to rail, and the ports were set up to facilitate this so I don't think that's particularly relevant.

It's relevant because a rail-sail-rail journey was offered for a long time after Eurostar started running, and got dropped because nobody used it.

 

[AdamWW]

Eurotunnel ltd's running costs (or whatever the company is officially called) will include the debt servicing. I highly doubt that's going to come down substantially on the commercial market any time soon, and I can't see any of the respective governments being too keen to take on any of the burden either. But even if you removed the debt from the picture and Eurostar was only asked to pay it's proportion of the actual operational costs, it still isn't going to be cheaper than Easyjet or Ryanair.

It's relevant because a rail-sail-rail journey was offered for a long time after Eurostar started running, and got dropped because nobody used it.

Perhaps we're arguing semantics here, but the reference was to the channel tunnel's "running costs" (not Eurostar's) and I would consider debt servicing a separate issue to the costs of operating the tunnel itself. From Eurostar's point of view though they will presumably pay a single fee per train/seat/whatever to GETLINK(?), some of which goes to debt servicing, some to operating costs, some to profit etc.

And maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't the rail-sea-rail journey made less convenient as soon as Eurostar started, by closing down the port stations?

However, given that so far as I know Eurostar is running the maximum number of trains they can, and largely filling them, presumably any reduction in their costs would just give them more profit.

 

[johncrossley]

Budget airlines fulfill the short-notice low-cost hop to France market.

For some parts of France, yes. Lille, Dunkerque and surrounding area isn't very accessible, though. Belgium is also problematic as well, as mentioned earlier. The nearest options are easyJet to Paris CDG, Ryanair to Eindhoven and Ryanair to Luxembourg. There are Ryanair flights from Manchester to Charleroi but not from London or anywhere in the south.

 

[paul1609]

If the UK joined Schengen I could have seen a local stopping service through the Tunnel to Calais for commuters once an hour using something like Javelins. But that's as far away as it's ever been.

I can't, well not without a major change in attitudes that goes way beyond Schenegen.
The only way that a service would make sense would be if the Pas de Calais was opened up as cheap housing for London.
That would need major development, the existing housing stock just isn't sufficient. Im not entirely convinced that the French would be entirely happy being the new East End.
If we go by the commuting patterns on southeastern, post WFH and pandemic Calais would be too far away anyway.

Perhaps we're arguing semantics here, but the reference was to the channel tunnel's "running costs" (not Eurostar's) and I would consider debt servicing a separate issue to the costs of operating the tunnel itself. From Eurostar's point of view though they will presumably pay a single fee per train/seat/whatever to GETLINK(?), some of which goes to debt servicing, some to operating costs, some to profit etc.

And maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't the rail-sea-rail journey made less convenient as soon as Eurostar started, by closing down the port stations?

However, given that so far as I know Eurostar is running the maximum number of trains they can, and largely filling them, presumably any reduction in their costs would just give them more profit.

Sorry that's not correct the Channel Tunnel was designed to take up to 8 Eurostars in each direction every hour. The reality is that HS1 south of Ashford is known as the Tumbleweed Line. Don't even mention the missing rail freight.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Unfortunately despite the fascination with them on this forum, sales of the Calais Ticket had fallen to an average of around one per day over the last decade. In the last few years that the Dover Port Bus ran it mostly ran empty or with less than half a dozen passengers. That's obviously not viable.

In fact. the tickets were still available for some time after the dedicated bus between Dover station and the port stopped running - my last trips were all done after the bus had disappeared. So I'm unclear about cause and effect. Also, almost no-one I knew was aware of the Calais day-trip possibility in its later years - maybe if it had been publicised...

 

[AdamWW]

Sorry that's not correct the Channel Tunnel was designed to take up to 8 Eurostars in each direction every hour. The reality is that HS1 south of Ashford is known as the Tumbleweed Line. Don't even mention the missing rail freight.

I am always happy to be corrected by those who know more than me, but my understanding is the the limit is currently set by Eurostar's ability to get people through passport control and onto the trains, not line capacity.

Even pre-Brexit, I'd be surprised if either St Pancras or Gare du Nord could have dispatched anything close to 8 trains an hour without some serious expansion of the passenger facilities.

 

[zwk500]

I am always happy to be corrected by those who know more than me, but my understanding is the the limit is currently set by Eurostar's ability to get people through passport control and onto the trains, not line capacity.

Even pre-Brexit, I'd be surprised if either St Pancras or Gare du Nord could have dispatched anything close to 8 trains an hour without some serious expansion of the passenger facilities.

St Pancras is currently quite full when there are trains running close together (it seems to have lounge capacity for about a train and a half's worth at any 1 time), but that passenger load would be spread across Ebbsfleet and Ashford when running the full service as well. Gare du Nord wouldn't be taking all 8 trains, as some would be coming from Brussels as well.

 

[AlbertBeale]

St Pancras is currently quite full when there are trains running close together (it seems to have lounge capacity for about a train and a half's worth at any 1 time), but that passenger load would be spread across Ebbsfleet and Ashford when running the full service as well. Gare du Nord wouldn't be taking all 8 trains, as some would be coming from Brussels as well.

Even with other stations spreading the load, St P could still be pretty tight I'd reckon! Since Ashford has reasonable rail connections, I'd guess that an inducement for people to use that rather than St P might be needed if the 8 tph were ever to materialise - at the very least free train travel from SE England to Ashford with an international ticket from Ashford. And then there's Stratford.......

 

[zwk500]

Even with other stations spreading the load, St P could still be pretty tight I'd reckon! Since Ashford has reasonable rail connections, I'd guess that an inducement for people to use that rather than St P might be needed if the 8 tph were ever to materialise - at the very least free train travel from SE England to Ashford with an international ticket from Ashford. And then there's Stratford.......

I'll be honest, we're a long way from 8tph ever being required, so it's all rather moot.

 

[paul1609]

I am always happy to be corrected by those who know more than me, but my understanding is the the limit is currently set by Eurostar's ability to get people through passport control and onto the trains, not line capacity.

Even pre-Brexit, I'd be surprised if either St Pancras or Gare du Nord could have dispatched anything close to 8 trains an hour without some serious expansion of the passenger facilities.

Don't forget the plan as late as the second phase of HS1 was that Eurostars market would have grown sufficiently to support two London Terminals St Pancras and Waterloo plus the NoL services. Destinations weren't supposed to be limited to Paris or Brussels either.
Even taking in to account the subsequent reductions in terminals and Brexit Eurostar is at nowhere near the available infrastructure capacity.