Pacer popularity in preservation

[Ashley Hill]

It's nice to see so many preserved but a what cost? The general public turn up at preserved railways expecting to ride behind a steam train of an irrelevant class and don't care as long as it goes toot and chuff! There's been days on the line I volunteer on when the steamers failed and Joe Public has said no thanks to its diesel replacement. Pacers may be novel for event days but not for normal running.

 

[Vespa]

I do remember bus style bench seats on Pavers, not particularly comfortable for long journeys, some had their seats upgraded later which had is a bit more comfortable, I could visualise a Pacer in LMS coach colour scheme maybe even heritage seats, it would actually look good.

When they were first built, they were designed to be a cheap temporary solution to a rolling stock shortage, it has lasted a lot longer than it's design life, a testimony to simple engineering without any on board computer software throwing it's teddy out, it would just keep going.

With care these trains should last a very long time in service.

 

[AndyW33]

The suggestion is regularly made for the KWVR, which with the ELR must be the least unlikely candidate, but the subsidy required, even with a pacer, would still be disproportionate. And an hourly service is probably not useful enough.

The KWVR has of course tried running services for people who just want to get from A to B and back again and don't care how they do it. They even used 4 wheeled, diesel engined railbuses to do it - two of BR's German built 1960s railbuses which went straight from service to preservation. The idea was more of a shopping service than a commuter service, but there was a reason the Valley's population deserted the railway in the first place, as anyone who has ever tried to carry anything heavy from Haworth station to the upper part of the village will tell you. The road bus, of course, could get to the top of the hill, with shopping, and not only that, get closer to the main shopping area in Keighley. Same applied to the other stations on the line.

The railbuses do still exist, at least!

 

[30907]

The KWVR has of course tried running services for people who just want to get from A to B and back again and don't care how they do it. They even used 4 wheeled, diesel engined railbuses to do it - two of BR's German built 1960s railbuses which went straight from service to preservation. The idea was more of a shopping service than a commuter service, but there was a reason the Valley's population deserted the railway in the first place, as anyone who has ever tried to carry anything heavy from Haworth station to the upper part of the village will tell you. The road bus, of course, could get to the top of the hill, with shopping, and not only that, get closer to the main shopping area in Keighley. Same applied to the other stations on the line.

The railbuses do still exist, at least!

Quite. I'm not privy to the workings of the timetable department, but in normal times the first Saturday train down to Keighley is a railbus/dmu which appears to be a survivor from the shoppers' service (and I believe gets some use); it runs significantly earlier than the normal timetable.

There has been a substantial amount of housing development by the railway since the 70s - but not enough IMO to swing the subsidy case.

It's nice to see so many preserved but a what cost? The general public turn up at preserved railways expecting to ride behind a steam train of an irrelevant class and don't care as long as it goes toot and chuff! There's been days on the line I volunteer on when the steamers failed and Joe Public has said no thanks to its diesel replacement. Pacers may be novel for event days but not for normal running.

A number of lines advertise DMU services, though, which is different from last minute substitutions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A number of lines advertise DMU services, though, which is different from last minute substitutions.

Indeed. Personally I'd more pay for a ride on a Class 101 set (say) than a Mk1 behind a kettle.

I guess the thing is that preserved lines have two sets of (slightly conflicting in some ways) customers - enthusiasts (who want railway interest, often quite specific) and families (who want a kettle with some old looking coaches and don't care otherwise).

 

[Crewe Exile]

It's nice to see so many preserved but a what cost? The general public turn up at preserved railways expecting to ride behind a steam train of an irrelevant class and don't care as long as it goes toot and chuff! There's been days on the line I volunteer on when the steamers failed and Joe Public has said no thanks to its diesel replacement. Pacers may be novel for event days but not for normal running.

This hits the nail on the head. I cannot understand this trend to purchase stock that the public will simply not identify with being ‘heritage’. I have had a good few holidays in Somerset over the years - and have seen the West Somerset’s unit on a few occasions in service - can honestly say I’ve never seen more than about 2 people on it.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

This hits the nail on the head. I cannot understand this trend to purchase stock that the public will simply not identify with being ‘heritage’. I have had a good few holidays in Somerset over the years - and have seen the West Somerset’s unit on a few occasions in service - can honestly say I’ve never seen more than about 2 people on it.

On the other hand, a few railways have said they're going to experiment to an extent with their newly-acquired (and relatively cheaply acquired) Pacers. Whether it be turning them into observation cars or fitting a buffet/bar. They can do this to a pacer without the purists getting upset, could they do the same with a first generation unit?

I've had a fair few rides on the WSR's unit (a few years ago now) and at the time it was in excellent condition and a lovely experience. It was also reasonably busy, including families with small children who were excited to be riding on "Daisy".

Narrow gauge so not quite a like-for-like comparison, but the Ffestiniog used to offer discounted "early bird" tickets if you travelled on the first departure from Porthmadog in the morning, which was diesel-hauled. You could then make your downhill journey at your leisure with as many breaks of journey as you liked to ride behind the "travel kettles". My parents took me and my brothers on the line as kids, and wouldn't have been able to without these lower price tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the other hand, a few railways have said they're going to experiment to an extent with their newly-acquired (and relatively cheaply acquired) Pacers. Whether it be turning them into observation cars or fitting a buffet/bar. They can do this to a pacer without the purists getting upset, could they do the same with a first generation unit?

A first-gen unit isn't, other than the view out of the front, any good as an "observation car" anyway, the windows tended to be quite small, particularly on Met Camms.

Another one I've heard is setting up as a mobile bar for music performances and similar, for which the low-back seats will work well.

I've had a fair few rides on the WSR's unit (a few years ago now) and at the time it was in excellent condition and a lovely experience. It was also reasonably busy, including families with small children who were excited to be riding on "Daisy".

It does help that a Pacer is shaped quite like a 1st gen unit - 3 windows at the cab end and short vehicles. 143s and 144s even more so, with the high arched roofline inside (similar to a Mk1) and the outside body not looking like a Leyland National.

Paint it green and kids will think it's Daisy.

FWIW, sadly this unit has now been scrapped (there's a horrible picture of it being cut up if you search, I can't quite bear to post it here given how rare 141s are), but this looks heritage:

141103 at the Weardale Railway in better times - Wikimedia Commons

Narrow gauge so not quite a like-for-like comparison, but the Ffestiniog used to offer discounted "early bird" tickets if you travelled on the first departure from Porthmadog in the morning, which was diesel-hauled. You could then make your downhill journey at your leisure with as many breaks of journey as you liked to ride behind the "travel kettles". My parents took me and my brothers on the line as kids, and wouldn't have been able to without these lower price tickets.

Travel kettles, love it

 

[61653 HTAFC]

A first-gen unit isn't, other than the view out of the front, any good as an "observation car" anyway, the windows tended to be quite small, particularly on Met Camms.

Another one I've heard is setting up as a mobile bar for music performances and similar, for which the low-back seats will work well.



It does help that a Pacer is shaped quite like a 1st gen unit - 3 windows at the cab end and short vehicles. 143s and 144s even more so, with the high arched roofline inside (similar to a Mk1) and the outside body not looking like a Leyland National.

Paint it green and kids will think it's Daisy.

FWIW, sadly this unit has now been scrapped (there's a horrible picture of it being cut up if you search, I can't quite bear to post it here given how rare 141s are), but this looks heritage:

141103 at the Weardale Railway in better times - Wikimedia Commons



Travel kettles, love it

The Pacers worked really well for the "Music Trains" on the Penistone line back in the day (though it got a bit too cosy if a 2-car unit was used in place of the usual 3-car). The later high-backed seating did rather diminish this a little however. I assume the fact that these trains are fondly remembered by all who experienced them has influenced the plan by Vintage Trains (IIRC) to run similar excursions with their 144s. A more permanent bar area (rather than a few kegs and a folding table) would be even better.

There's far too many trying to find fault with those railways who are being innovative in my opinion. Rather than running things down before they've even begun, how about letting those with the ideas and the means to realise them get on with it. If it all ends in tears, then you can be smug and say "I told you so".

 

[Ashley Hill]

Is the problem that there's too many preserved? I'd rather see a couple of each class kept in good condition than several lying around on the infamous linear scrap yards. Once the flanges become scrap size can the owners afford replacement wheelsets or sideline it possibly leading to neglect.

 

[sprinterguy]

Is the problem that there's too many preserved? I'd rather see a couple of each class kept in good condition than several lying around on the infamous linear scrap yards. Once the flanges become scrap size can the owners afford replacement wheelsets or sideline it possibly leading to neglect.

I'll be curious to see how this pans out myself: I wouldn't be surprised to see some consolidation amongst the newly preserved fleets in the future, based on the example of the dwindling class 141 units in preservation.

Certainly they seem an excellent proposition in the short to medium term for established heritage operations to try new ventures, and for developing lines to expand their offering, but I wonder whether some units (Beyond those already purchased purely for spares - I think there's at least one such) might fall by the wayside as time goes by.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Is the problem that there's too many preserved? I'd rather see a couple of each class kept in good condition than several lying around on the infamous linear scrap yards. Once the flanges become scrap size can the owners afford replacement wheelsets or sideline it possibly leading to neglect.

If a railway that's acquired two Pacers spreads itself too thinly and ends up with two wrecks rather than one becoming a spares donor for the other, that's down to poor decisions on their part rather than an inherent problem with acquiring them in the first place. With so many examples preserved there's going to be a bigger float of spares available for a number of years.

The downside might be that with many railways getting Pacers, in a few years when Sprinters start to be withdrawn there might not be so many takers. This will be a shame, as Sprinters are just as significant to our railway history.

 

[StephenHunter]

I'm amazed about how many Pacers have been preserved myself. We're yet to see how much of a draw they'll be; but they'll be a good type for less busy days.

 

[bramling]

I'm amazed about how many Pacers have been preserved myself. We're yet to see how much of a draw they'll be; but they'll be a good type for less busy days.

The jury is out on that. I’m not sure how much of a “quality” experience they will offer, especially on a longer journey. Last year did to some extent demonstrate the value of compartments, and people seemed to take to them.

 

[_toommm_]

A first-gen unit isn't, other than the view out of the front, any good as an "observation car" anyway, the windows tended to be quite small, particularly on Met Camms.

Another one I've heard is setting up as a mobile bar for music performances and similar, for which the low-back seats will work well.



It does help that a Pacer is shaped quite like a 1st gen unit - 3 windows at the cab end and short vehicles. 143s and 144s even more so, with the high arched roofline inside (similar to a Mk1) and the outside body not looking like a Leyland National.

Paint it green and kids will think it's Daisy.

FWIW, sadly this unit has now been scrapped (there's a horrible picture of it being cut up if you search, I can't quite bear to post it here given how rare 141s are), but this looks heritage:

141103 at the Weardale Railway in better times - Wikimedia Commons



Travel kettles, love it

Bah humbug:

 

[bramling]

Bah humbug:
View attachment 88378

That’s sad. Whilst the class 141 is in many ways a good example of how not to design and build a train, it’s still sad to see one of the few examples still in this country biting the dust.

There’s something unpleasantly brutal about the way rail vehicles are picked apart by an excavator these days.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That’s sad. Whilst the class 141 is in many ways a good example of how not to design and build a train, it’s still sad to see one of the few examples still in this country biting the dust.

There’s something unpleasantly brutal about the way rail vehicles are picked apart by an excavator these days.

Indeed. I think that scrapping only leaves 2 of them remaining, of which I think only one has the original transmission.

Shame a home couldn't be found for it. There's a million heritage DMUs and Mk1s out there, but these units are unique.

Some now-preserved 142/3/4 will end up scrapped, but there are quite a lot of those by comparison.

 

[Ianigsy]

A few years ago, when the Southern DEMUs were withdrawn, I remember the boss if a line which had just received one saying "It's not particularly prototypical for our line, but it'll give us something to run while we get a steam operation set up". The same might apply here.

 

[43096]

Indeed. I think that scrapping only leaves 2 of them remaining, of which I think only one has the original transmission.

Shame a home couldn't be found for it. There's a million heritage DMUs and Mk1s out there, but these units are unique.

Some now-preserved 142/3/4 will end up scrapped, but there are quite a lot of those by comparison.

I would hesitate to really call them preserved. If they're owned by the lines themselves (rather than a separate preservation group), then they are really just trains to run a service, much like any other rolling stock is, and are disposable once they've served their purpose.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Indeed. I think that scrapping only leaves 2 of them remaining, of which I think only one has the original transmission.

Shame a home couldn't be found for it. There's a million heritage DMUs and Mk1s out there, but these units are unique.

Some now-preserved 142/3/4 will end up scrapped, but there are quite a lot of those by comparison.

One more than all the preserved 142s then!

 

[EvanDMU]

There are 18 LMS Black Fives, 15 BR Standard 2-6-4 tanks, over 50 Class 117 DMU vehicles and something like 35 Class 37s preserved so multiples of any one type are not unusual in preservation. Pacer preservation will follow the pattern of first-gen, which currently shows around 50% of what has been saved out of traffic with substantial numbers of 'preserved' units broken for spares since the mass purchases of the early 1990s.

 

[Jim]

Worth remembering Thumpers at first had a fairly "mass preservation" when they became available, look how long that lasted in terms of running units?

 

[gc4946]

There'll probably be a few Pacers which will be restored to as near original condition as possible, i.e. four-leaf doors (class 142s), bus seats, removal of radio pods and repainting in authentic liveries.
Other railways and preservation groups may decide to re-seat and repaint them in non-authentic liveries.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Pacers give a good view out of the side windows, which is good for scenic preserved lines. I wonder if it would be possible to provide a forward view by installing windows into the cab, like 1st generation DMUs? How much stuff is on the back partition of the cab?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Pacers give a good view out of the side windows, which is good for scenic preserved lines. I wonder if it would be possible to provide a forward view by installing windows into the cab, like 1st generation DMUs? How much stuff is on the back partition of the cab?

Fair bit of electrical gubbins, I believe. You could install a glass cab door, though.

 

[SteveyBee131]

For many years, the window in the cab door was only shielded by a blind, so it's not inconceivable the masking on said window could be removed

 

[43096]

There'll probably be a few Pacers which will be restored to as near original condition as possible, i.e. four-leaf doors (class 142s), bus seats, removal of radio pods and repainting in authentic liveries.
Other railways and preservation groups may decide to re-seat and repaint them in non-authentic liveries.

How many are actually owned by a "Pacer Preservation Group" though? They are the most likely to want to restore to some historical condition. Those owned by the railways: beyond a coat of paint and maybe something more appropriate internally, they aren't going to be bothered by stuff like original doors.

 

[DB]

Indeed. I think that scrapping only leaves 2 of them remaining, of which I think only one has the original transmission.

Shame a home couldn't be found for it. There's a million heritage DMUs and Mk1s out there, but these units are unique.

Some now-preserved 142/3/4 will end up scrapped, but there are quite a lot of those by comparison.

Yes, pity about that one - given that 141s are of some historic interest as the first production class of railbus.

I remember going from Bishop Auckland to Stanhope and back on it a decade or so ago - it was in good condition and well looked after at that point.

 

[Ashley Hill]

A lot of the Pacers will get laid up once the novelty wears off or they need a major cash injection. Look around what DMUs and Railcars are already /have been in preservation and have fallen on hard times. The W&M Railcars etc don't seem to draw attention to themselves and neither does the unique 140 festering away in Scotland. Many DMUs have been scrapped as beyond hope or asbestos. The class 103s were nearly wiped out in preservation and the 127s are dwindling. But,the general public don't see this,only enthusiasts. It may be the same with sprinters,many will get bought but the general publics love of steam will always win. I'd like to think in the future a grandfather may turn to his grandson,point to a Skipper and say "I used to go to work on those,bloody boneshakers. Let's go for a ride!"

 

[D365]

I'd like to think in the future a grandfather may turn to his grandson,point to a Skipper and say "I used to go to work on those,bloody boneshakers. Let's go for a ride!"

That will probably be the big driver of traffic on heritage railway, post-COVID. Once things are back to normal, anyone who suggests Northern is diabolical will have no excuse not to remember how much worse things were