"Paddington has its own rules" - but what are they?

[nitten_travell]

Might have missed it in the replies, but did the ticket have a barcode and was it scanned by the Train Manager's phone or barcode reader?

Seems Super off peak on the 1600 wouldn't be valid say ticket from London Term to Bristol (the train you were on) as the block is 1505-1900 for that journey, so announcements as someone mentioned need to be more specific or not mention Super Off Peak tickets.

In your situation, whether the TM would have tried making you purchase another ticket will probably never be known as you were about to alight.

The thing that would really annoy me is if the TM said, as did to you, something along lines of 'make sure you get right ticket next time', which does clearly imply they thought they were right, when not & next time could be different outcome for someone else.

Personally, I'd explain exactly what happened to GWR but omit actual date (so as not to individualise it) and ask that all TMs are re-briefed urgently.

If a barcode was scanned I *assume* (not sure) that it would just show as valid and TM moves straight on.

I had a paper ticket bought at the ticket machine at Newtongrange station. Not sure a barcode ticket is possible as I was crossing London.

Interestingly, the guard also said (in my “round in circles” chat) I should have checked with the train manager before boarding. I’ve always thought the guard and train manager were one and the same person.

I was told to check that I have the right ticket next time, which is why I went to the ticket office at Didcot Parkway after getting off the train.

 

[Wolfie]

One of these days, somebody will be penalised (by whatever means) by an enthusiastic employee for a total non-transgression, and will be resourceful enough to ignore approaches from the TOC and its agents until they proceed with all their legal might. And have the case awarded against the TOC, with costs and compensation.

Then and only then, I think, may they actually sit up and pay attention; i.e. when it actually hurts them enough.

(See also the case of the unvalidated Gatwick ticket reported elsewhere).

It would have to be in a Court at a level high enough to set a legal precedent to really hurt.

I suspect that at some point a TOC hassling a customer for more money when a perfectly valid ticket was held might just be bad enough for Ferguson v British Gas Trading Limited to be a valid piece of case law.....

 

[furlong]

The body responsible for dealing with the problems at Paddington is the ORR under the Consumer Regulations. If the ORR was doing its job properly I think we'd be seeing the ORR prosecuting GWR by now!

If someone wants to sort this out, they need to get onto the ORR to make it begin down the path of taking enforcement action in line with its published policy. Setting out the problem in terms that make it impossible for GWR to wriggle out of it later, then agreeing an action plan with GWR to solve the matter, and then if all that fails, moving on to a prosecution (on the underlying grounds of incompetence/knowingly failing to comply). If the ORR doesn't respond, then Trading Standards
can also get involved.

 

[theironroad]

I had a paper ticket bought at the ticket machine at Newtongrange station. Not sure a barcode ticket is possible as I was crossing London.

Interestingly, the guard also said (in my “round in circles” chat) I should have checked with the train manager before boarding. I’ve always thought the guard and train manager were one and the same person.

I was told to check that I have the right ticket next time, which is why I went to the ticket office at Didcot Parkway after getting off the train.

I'm no expert on tickets by any means, but yes, believe you still need a card ticket for the LUL rather than paper. Whether LUL plan to install barcode readers at barriers I don't know.

In further daft un-joined up thinking, the latest ticket machines that guards (yes, i believe guard and Train Manager are interchangeable on normal trains) now only issue loo roll type paper tickets rather than credit card sized. For a TOC that has a very high % of trains into Waterloo, it means that to buy a through ticket on board which includes LUL (or a one day travelcard etc), I believe the passenger is issued a code that then has to be entered into a concourse ticket machine (not sure exact details) to then be issued relevant barrier pass for LUL ticket gates.

It's scenarios like you experienced ( why, just why should anyone have to find and wait to speak to the guard about a ticket that is perfectly valid.) It's clear that the guard/tm in this case needs to be re-trained and also accept that yes, they can be wrong as they seem to think they are infallible.

Hope you get a decent response from GWR

 

[reb0118]

Roll on TfL accepting barcodes and Train Managers not spouting rubbish after scanning the ticket proves it is valid

Conversely, most LNER & Connections tickets I scan show as invalid (even when they're not) - an issue that didn't arise with paper tickets.

 

[Hadders]

I'm no expert on tickets by any means, but yes, believe you still need a card ticket for the LUL rather than paper. Whether LUL plan to install barcode readers at barriers I don't know.

In further daft un-joined up thinking, the latest ticket machines that guards (yes, i believe guard and Train Manager are interchangeable on normal trains) now only issue loo roll type paper tickets rather than credit card sized. For a TOC that has a very high % of trains into Waterloo, it means that to buy a through ticket on board which includes LUL (or a one day travelcard etc), I believe the passenger is issued a code that then has to be entered into a concourse ticket machine (not sure exact details) to then be issued relevant barrier pass for LUL ticket gates.

It's scenarios like you experienced ( why, just why should anyone have to find and wait to speak to the guard about a ticket that is perfectly valid.) It's clear that the guard/tm in this case needs to be re-trained and also accept that yes, they can be wrong as they seem to think they are infallible.

Hope you get a decent response from GWR

If we're talking about SWR, do they have any stations without ticket issuing facilities? I doubt there are more than a handful of stations (if any) without a ticket vending machine so passengers really shouldn't be buying onboard.

 

[Watershed]

If we're talking about SWR, do they have any stations without ticket issuing facilities? I doubt there are more than a handful of stations (if any) without a ticket vending machine so passengers really shouldn't be buying onboard.

There are some surprisingly well-served SWR stations without ticketing facilities - for example, Longcross.

 

[Craig1122]

There are some surprisingly well-served SWR stations without ticketing facilities - for example, Longcross.

Longcross does have a PERTIS machine. Never seen it working though!

 

[rs101]

Conversely, most LNER & Connections tickets I scan show as invalid (even when they're not) - an issue that didn't arise with paper tickets.

I hate using paper travelcards when visiting London - can guarantee there will be problems either in an underground machine or they won't scan when trying to get the train home from Liverpool Street..

Weirdly, if I buy an Off Peak Travelcard, I can load that onto my GA smartcard, but can't load a Super Off Peak Travelcard. There also isn't a any obvious way to buy two tickets on the same transaction (using my Network Railcard discount) and load to smart cards. Not sure if it's permitted to make two separate purchases applying the discount or not...

 

[MrJeeves]

Weirdly, if I buy an Off Peak Travelcard, I can load that onto my GA smartcard, but can't load a Super Off Peak Travelcard

There is no separation between off peak and super off peak tickets on smartcards, so barriers cannot tell which is which, which is why you aren't offered the super off peak ones for smartcards.

 

[rs101]

There is no separation between off peak and super off peak tickets on smartcards, so barriers cannot tell which is which, which is why you aren't offered the super off peak ones for smartcards.

Amazing, so they've implemented these smart cards relatively recently (within the last 5 years), but they can't support something as basic as this at the barriers? I'm assuming you mean the National Rail barriers as that's the only difference in ticket validity that I can see (can't use on some of the peak evening trains, for example).

Surely they could sell smartcard versions for weekend travel though, as the validity is the same?

 

[Turtle]

I hate using paper travelcards when visiting London - can guarantee there will be problems either in an underground machine or they won't scan when trying to get the train home from Liverpool Street..

Weirdly, if I buy an Off Peak Travelcard, I can load that onto my GA smartcard, but can't load a Super Off Peak Travelcard. There also isn't a any obvious way to buy two tickets on the same transaction (using my Network Railcard discount) and load to smart cards. Not sure if it's permitted to make two separate purchases applying the discount or not...

It's problems like this which sum up Great British (disjointed)Railways. Someone, after the next election, has to be given a mandate to reorganise the mess we're in. It'll be a long term job for a person who's really interested. Unfortunately, in British politics the rail job reserved fo a politician either stepping up or coming down in their career, so no longterm overview.

 

[rs101]

It's problems like this which sum up Great British (disjointed)Railways. Someone, after the next election, has to be given a mandate to reorganise the mess we're in. It'll be a long term job for a person who's really interested. Unfortunately, in British politics the rail job reserved fo a politician either stepping up or coming down in their career, so no longterm overview.

Yep. Having used Swiss railways several times, I've seen how well these things could be done. A simple to use app which automatically works out the cheapest ticket for the journeys you've taken each day, whether it be by train, bus, boat (or any combination of the three). Clear and simple information about each train - how busy each carriage is, where they'll be on the platform, etc - something which is sometimes available here, but depends on which station, train, day of the week, position of the moon, etc.

 

[yorkie]

Yep. Having used Swiss railways several times, I've seen how well these things could be done.

There isn't the political will in the UK to emulate much, if anything, of how public transport is operated in Switzerland.

Public transport isn't considered a default option here in the UK, and the attitude of some staff is that they want to catch people out, rather than provide good service, which is very different to my experiences of Switzerland.

A simple to use app which automatically works out the cheapest ticket for the journeys you've taken each day, whether it be by train, bus, boat (or any combination of the three). Clear and simple information about each train - how busy each carriage is, where they'll be on the platform, etc - something which is sometimes available here, but depends on which station, train, day of the week, position of the moon, etc.

@Oscar does EasyRide work out things like if you did a few zonal journeys in Zurich, took a train to Basel (via Frick) and then a few zonal tram journeys in Frick, it would charge you for the cost of two zonal tickets and a point to point ticket, for the middle bit?

That said, even if it always works out the cheapest combination of fares, scaling that up for the UK would be an absolutely mammoth task (and well beyond the scope of this thread)

But the problems described in this thread really should be relatively easy to solve; we're surely not asking for much, for staff to be appropriately trained and for sufficient safeguards to be put in place to ensure staff act appropriately? Even for the UK this should be possible!

 

[miami]

Would it not possible to put in the details on a ticket (start, end, date, restriction code) and produce a webpage which confirms the validity on a given train (board at station X at time T and leave from station Y)?

This way there would be a unambiguous repeatable source of truth which can be tested and re-tested, and any issues with it can be raised and fixed.

Sadly something as simple as "for restrictions see nre.co.uk/1K" has issues with staff refusing to understand them (both at Euston and Paddington), but also in ambiguity for the average person. For example 1K says "not valid for arrivals into London/Luton/Bedford etc". Is that valid for a train from say Newcastle which later arrives at London at 1000 but the ticket holder departs at York.

 

[AdamWW]

Would it not possible to put in the details on a ticket (start, end, date, restriction code) and produce a webpage which confirms the validity on a given train (board at station X at time T and leave from station Y)?

This way there would be a unambiguous repeatable source of truth which can be tested and re-tested, and any issues with it can be raised and fixed.

The National Rail or TOCs own journey planner will do this (albeit in some cases you'll have to pick a day in the future to get information on a journey you're already making).

But this doesn't prevent staff from saying that it's wrong and they know better.

 

[Watershed]

Would it not possible to put in the details on a ticket (start, end, date, restriction code) and produce a webpage which confirms the validity on a given train (board at station X at time T and leave from station Y)?

That would absolutely be possible, since that's how journey planners work. It would be a modified journey planner, in essence.

This way there would be a unambiguous repeatable source of truth which can be tested and re-tested, and any issues with it can be raised and fixed.

It would be a lot better than the current position in a lot of ways, yes. But sometimes the data doesn't match what the text says; equally, the data might change between when you book and when you travel. There are edge cases which means that staff would still have to be told that they would sometimes need to allow a passenger to travel in spite of what this "source of truth" says.

Given the number of rail staff out there, it wouldn't take long for people to come across the small minority who would inevitably forget that important caveat to the training/brief...

Sadly something as simple as "for restrictions see nre.co.uk/1K" has issues with staff refusing to understand them (both at Euston and Paddington), but also in ambiguity for the average person. For example 1K says "not valid for arrivals into London/Luton/Bedford etc".

The main problem is that these restriction codes are trying to do too many things at once - they cover huge numbers of journeys where the practical impact of the restrictions varies significantly; for example 1K and its facsimile 1L cover journeys ranging from Peterborough to London, to Wick to Penzance.

I'm not a huge fan of the recent-ish practice of referring to another restriction code in the text, but it does at least minimise the length of the text and make it somewhat readable and digestible.

Is that valid for a train from say Newcastle which later arrives at London at 1000 but the ticket holder departs at York.

The station that the passenger departs from doesn't make a difference in this particular case, since it's based on arrival time into London (which remains unchanged regardless of where you board).

 

[Craig1122]

The National Rail or TOCs own journey planner will do this (albeit in some cases you'll have to pick a day in the future to get information on a journey you're already making).

But this doesn't prevent staff from saying that it's wrong and they know better.

An increasing number of mistakes seem to be made in how the data is set up. For example for a long time some journeys on SWR were showing super off peak as valid all day if you checked via a journey planner.

The mistake appeared to be that the restriction had been set up to bar only journeys passing through Waterloo at restricted times when it should have applied to trains leaving between those times. However all other sources made it clear the ticket wasn't valid.

I can well imagine this caused conflicts on train when passengers should be able to rely on a journey planner itinerary.

 

[miami]

albeit in some cases you'll have to pick a day in the future to get information on a journey you're already making

Except you could pick a Friday and get different response to a Thursday for example.

But more importantly I don't think nre could be coaxed into showing you whether the return leg of a 3A Ayr to Cambridge via Dumfries "off peak return" is valid on the return leg from Stockport on the 0756 to Manchester Oxford Road.

There are edge cases which means that staff would still have to be told that they would sometimes need to allow a passenger to travel in spite of what this "source of truth" says.

At least with a public database you can check in advance and know it's green, and not be at the whim of some untrained gate guard making up their own rules.

If it's red, you can request assistance ahead of time.

 

[Watershed]

At least with a public database you can check in advance and know it's green, and not be at the whim of some untrained gate guard making up their own rules.

If it's red, you can request assistance ahead of time.

What percentage of passengers do you estimate would be sufficiently well-informed and clued-up that they would:

a) know about this tool
b) know that it is wrong for the journey they intend to make
c) know how to convince the inevitably poorly trained frontline customer service staff at [insert TOC here] that the tool is wrong?

 

[AdamWW]

Except you could pick a Friday and get different response to a Thursday for example.

Yes but you could be cunning and choose the same day of the week.

But more importantly I don't think nre could be coaxed into showing you whether the return leg of a 3A Ayr to Cambridge via Dumfries "off peak return" is valid on the return leg from Stockport on the 0756 to Manchester Oxford Road.

Yes that's a good point.

 

[Jim]

I remember when I first started a gateline job in the NSE area of GWR, I always used to get caught out and have to check SSRs going out of Liverpool Street I think it was, which had LE restrictions applicable, not GWR.

 

[father_jack]

I remember when I first started a gateline job in the NSE area of GWR, I always used to get caught out and have to check SSRs going out of Liverpool Street I think it was, which had LE restrictions applicable, not GWR.

Probably SVRs, yes about an hours difference between where GWR set the fare and LE do.

 

[robbeech]

The issue with giving the benefit of the doubt is that plenty of people are trying it on when they know full well it isn't valid. Checking if challenged is the sensible way.

If plenty of people are trying it on then it should not need checking as it should be familiar to a member of staff.

Another one I just can't understand is the view that when a passenger is travelling on the itinerary their ticket was purchased with, if there is a problem with that it's somehow the passenger's fault for having been sold the wrong ticket.

It’s the Railway Family. There’s an initial attempt to move the blame away from the railway. The passenger must be wrong. When this becomes a challenge then they’ll narrow the family to their own employer blaming another operator or blaming the retailer.

If it happens so frequently that Raileasy has a protocol, and GWR management team are good at resolving the issues, you have to wonder why GWR management doesn't just get the staff at Paddington trained properly.

I don’t think we need wonder too long. It’s clear there is no incentive. For each person who takes steps to contact Raileasy as their retailer about this there will be hundreds if not thousands of excesses / new tickets / penalty fares issued that are “chalked up to experience” by passengers who will know no better and will assume they are in the wrong. Training costs money, tens of thousands of pounds to put together. It’d be like buying 2 gold bars to block up 2 slices of your toaster.

I remember when I first started a gateline job in the NSE area of GWR, I always used to get caught out and have to check SSRs going out of Liverpool Street I think it was, which had LE restrictions applicable, not GWR.

But this is the standard procedure, you were doing it right, unlike guards and gateline staff mentioned in this thread. If in doubt, check.

It’s interesting the differences between stations and operators. We are seeing here that on GWR you regularly cannot use a valid ticket to make your journey, and you can’t get through a gateline with a valid ticket, yet in Leeds you can get through a gateline with a brightly painted heron’s beak.

 

[Snow1964]

In fairness the gateline operative at Paddington didn't appear to challenge the ticket despite it not automatically opening the gate. The "memory" on CUBIC gates is often full where not all restrictions can be accommodated.

I do wonder if the memory is full, or nobody has bothered to program it. In late 1980s had a Commodore vic20 home computer with 1K RAM. Before memory became cheap. Gates are lot newer, and no-one sold memory chips that small by time they were made.

There are about 1000 2digit alphanumeric codes available (1024 is 10 bits) just need valid/not valid flag (1 bit) and possibly days of week (3 bits) and times (few bits). Even a 1M chip of RAM could fit that data, and these days smallest memory chip is about 1000 times that.

I therefore struggle with the concept that gates cannot have codes added unless they have pre early 1990s small memory chips in them, or manufacturer locked it off because that is all they bought.

 

[Haywain]

I therefore struggle with the concept that gates cannot have codes added unless they have pre early 1990s small memory chips in them, or manufacturer locked it off because that is all they bought.

Perhaps it would help to the know that the restriction code is not coded to the magnetic strip on a CCST ticket, so there would be no point in the gates having them 'added'.