Parade and Marching Band over Level Crossing

[LondonExile]

Next month I'll be part of a parade where the route crosses a level crossing (AHB as far as I can tell?) I can see on Google Streetview the usual sign saying drivers of large or slow vehicles must get permission to cross, but I'm wondering in terms of risk where a parade would sit? Should the parade be phoning the signaller ahead, or is the fact that it is made up of individual vehicles and pedestrians and can be "split" without fouling the crossing enough?

As I understand it, the road will be closed to traffic, and the parade will consist of a marching brass band, veterans, members of the local community and historic vehicles. The advice so far is that if the crossing operates, stop, do not duck under barriers etc., which whilst there's nothing wrong with what's written, I'm wondering if more is needed in terms of planning?

To stop a brass band on the march, they will be expecting cues from the bass drum that normally take about 5s to execute, but (untested), I expect someone screaming HALT! will be effective enough. Players are drilled not to stop on their own volition (otherwise the person behind you walks into you), so it's definitely not the same as say a group of runners.

Any thoughts?

 

[Snow1964]

Even if there are multiple vehicles, the fact that they are in a procession with people walking / marching, means by definition they are slow vehicles.

You would expect (although if not well organised, might not) put a Marshall by the crossing who stops them and maybe is responsible for contacting signalman.

 

[zwk500]

In terms of stopping on the march, you will have a big wailing siren and flashing lights to help the bass drummer and band leader.

However I would have a look at Network Rail's community safety people to try and arrange a talk ahead of time so that they know it's happening and the signallers can be aware, and that they can brief you on how to approach it.

 

[BrianW]

I would imagine someone (you?) is going to need to provide a written Risk Assessment based on advice from and liaison with 'the civil authorites', eg Police,first aid cover, road closure notices, signs, marshalls ... Are you aware of other organisations (that have used this crossing?) that may be able to help/ guide you? Think through what will happen if WHEN something goes wrong, and make plans for it!

 

[LondonExile]

So, I'm on the committee for the band, but we're just booked for the parade. I believe the H&S risk assessments sit with the organisers of the parade rather than us, but I'm considering both what instructions should we set out for our own players, and whether we should ask some more pointed questions of those organising the parade itself.

The local authority is involved in the organisation of this and will be supplying traffic management, so there is presumably some reasonable level of risk assessment done already.

 

[bluenoxid]

Don’t assume that someone has thought through all of the individual risks of a structured march that your group is performing. Considering that an AHB transforms relatively rapidly, I would suggest that you consider a process that players before the white line stop and that players on the crossing progress ASAP. You don’t want confusion on the crossing if someone shouts stop and people end up standing on the crossing for an anxiously long time. As it is a AHB, you’ve also got to consider the falling barrier as well for anyone exiting the crossing depending on the size of the crossing and the progress you are making.

I appreciate that it is controversial if the crossing is on the busiest part of the route but one option might be stop the music playing on and around the crossing, which reduces the risk of confusion.

 

[zwk500]

So, I'm on the committee for the band, but we're just booked for the parade. I believe the H&S risk assessments sit with the organisers of the parade rather than us, but I'm considering both what instructions should we set out for our own players, and whether we should ask some more pointed questions of those organising the parade itself.

The local authority is involved in the organisation of this and will be supplying traffic management, so there is presumably some reasonable level of risk assessment done already.

You should certainly have an agreed plan between the band and the organisers as to the plan for all level crossings on the route.

 

[LondonExile]

Don’t assume that someone has thought through all of the individual risks of a structured march that your group is performing. Considering that an AHB transforms relatively rapidly, I would suggest that you consider a process that players before the white line stop and that players on the crossing progress ASAP. You don’t want confusion on the crossing if someone shouts stop and people end up standing on the crossing for an anxiously long time. As it is a AHB, you’ve also got to consider the falling barrier as well for anyone exiting the crossing depending on the size of the crossing and the progress you are making.

I appreciate that it is controversial if the crossing is on the busiest part of the route but one option might be stop the music playing on and around the crossing, which reduces the risk of confusion.

That's exactly the kind of thing I'm thinking of.

My point around not running the overall event, is that I am confident we're neither responsible (nor have any ability) to make risk decisions or impose plans on those outside of the band (e.g. the heritage vehicles 200m behind us.), but I can talk with the overall organisers.

The line in question is the Northumberland line, so in the process of being upgraded for passenger services. What we have from the wider organisers so far is that they don't expect there to be any trains during the parade (but I know that unless the line is shut for engineering works, not to rely on that), and that if the crossing activates, the parade must stop, rather than duck under barriers. My thoughts (hence this thread) was what they've said isn't wrong, but may not be comprehensive enough.

 

[a_c_skinner]

If you are aware of any risk you are liable. As a committee member you have a duty of care. Everyone has to take their part. E&OE. IANAL.

 

[pint]

Marching band and level crossing?
Youtube throws this up :

 

[alxndr]

I would be inclined to station a marshall of some description, or instructing someone to “fall out” at the when reaching the crossing and rejoins at the end, who will be able to give a halt signal and step out to intervene. I wouldn’t want to rely on someone who was previously following the person ahead having the impetus to be the person to stop the procession, especially if you have younger or less confident members. Better to have someone outside who knows it’s their job and can make eye contact and make clear where the procession is to split.

I also like the suggestion to pause music on the approach, or at least pre-plan what happens with stopping/restarting playing.

 

[dastocks]

I would suggest you need to get some advice from Network Rail, if only to establish what trains are scheduled that day.

The fundamental rule is that the crossing needs to be treated like a yellow-box junction, so nothing passes the barrier until the exit is clear. If it was me I would have someone stationed at the barrier to make sure this actually happens.

 

[JBuchananGB]

This is not what you want

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HAR1302.pdf

 

[zwk500]

The line in question is the Northumberland line, so in the process of being upgraded for passenger services. What we have from the wider organisers so far is that they don't expect there to be any trains during the parade (but I know that unless the line is shut for engineering works, not to rely on that), and that if the crossing activates, the parade must stop, rather than duck under barriers. My thoughts (hence this thread) was what they've said isn't wrong, but may not be comprehensive enough.

Given the upgrade is happening, there should be a community relations person who can be contacted for NR to arrange a suitable plan. In any event, I would suggest you strongly push the organisers to have a marshal at the crossing who can focus on keeping the parade clear if needed. NR may well be happy for this marshal to phone from the crossing to request permission for the entire parade to cross as one.

 

[JBuchananGB]

About 4:35 p.m. on November 15, 2012, in Midland, Texas, a freight train collided with a parade float at a highway–railroad grade crossing, resulting in 4 fatalities and 12 injuries. The float consisted of a 2006 Peterbilt truck-tractor in combination with a 2005 Transcraft D-Eagle drop-deck flatbed semitrailer and was traveling south on South Garfield Street as part of a parade procession honoring US military men and women. The float, occupied by 12 veterans and their spouses, continued along South Garfield Street until it reached the intersection of West Front Avenue, where the traffic signal displayed red. Law enforcement personnel stationed to block cross traffic permitted the float and its escorts to continue across the intersection unhindered. About 80 feet south of the West Front Avenue intersection was an active highway–railroad grade crossing, and the crossing’s warning system activated as the float approached. The float continued across the railroad tracks at an estimated speed of 5 mph. A Union Pacific Railroad freight train approached the South Garfield Street crossing from the west at a speed of 62 mph. The train reached the crossing and struck the right rear of the float, causing the flatbed to rotate clockwise 122 degrees. As the flatbed rotated, it struck several occupants who were evacuating the float. It also struck a stationary 2008 Ford Crown Victoria occupied by a sheriff’s deputy

 

[bluenoxid]

I’ve had another thought assuming that you’re operating in rows of two or more people, which is for discussion with event organisers and the band, which is that you fall out of formation on the approach/at the crossing and pass over with more space between players, so you only have a few people on the crossing and less of an issue if the crossing activates. You can then reform on the far side of the crossing.

 

[edwin_m]

Next month I'll be part of a parade where the route crosses a level crossing (AHB as far as I can tell?) I can see on Google Streetview the usual sign saying drivers of large or slow vehicles must get permission to cross, but I'm wondering in terms of risk where a parade would sit? Should the parade be phoning the signaller ahead, or is the fact that it is made up of individual vehicles and pedestrians and can be "split" without fouling the crossing enough?

As I understand it, the road will be closed to traffic, and the parade will consist of a marching brass band, veterans, members of the local community and historic vehicles. The advice so far is that if the crossing operates, stop, do not duck under barriers etc., which whilst there's nothing wrong with what's written, I'm wondering if more is needed in terms of planning?

To stop a brass band on the march, they will be expecting cues from the bass drum that normally take about 5s to execute, but (untested), I expect someone screaming HALT! will be effective enough. Players are drilled not to stop on their own volition (otherwise the person behind you walks into you), so it's definitely not the same as say a group of runners.

Any thoughts?

The amber light is lit for several seconds before the red lights and then the barriers, so there will be some warning. However, someone has to see the amber light, and I imagine marching band members would be focusing on whatever they are playing and on not tripping up or walking into the person in front. They couldn't be relied on to see that a light has lit when it will be well out of their primary field of view if they are about to enter the crossing. Other factors to bear in mind are

• The sequence may start when the front of the band is already on the crossing, in which case those people should continue and the ones behind should stop.
• Being a half barrier crossing, some or all of the procession may approach on the side with no barrier, so there is no physical means to stop people if they haven't noticed the light sequence.
• There's also the risk that band members encounter the barrier when leaving the crossing, in which case they should go round or under it as quickly as possible.
• There's probably an audible warning too, but it might not be effective when competing with a trombone a foot or so from your ear!

So I agree you should take some advice on this. My suggestion, for what it's worth, would be either to stop playing and ask everyone to observe the lights, or to assign someone the specific job of monitoring the lights and equipped with an audible signal that everyone can hear. This could perhaps be the bass drum. And make sure they are observing two lamp clusters in case of lamp failure.

I would suggest you need to get some advice from Network Rail, if only to establish what trains are scheduled that day.

Don't rely on the timetable. Railway accidents, at least back to the one that shortened the life of Charles Dickens, have been caused when people assume trains will only arrive when they are supposed to.

 

[LondonExile]

Thanks all, my gut feeling is we want to push back on the organisers a bit and this is all backing that thought up.

This is also apparently a long-standing parade (but the first since I've been on the committee due to COVID, a shortened parade just around a field one year and a diary clash), but I'm assuming (hoping?) we'll also be booked for 2025 (and beyond), when this will definitely be a passenger railway with frequent services, so even if the answer this year turns out to be "Engineering possession, no risk of trains", I know that won't always be the case.

I'm assuming in years gone by (pre-COVID) nobody really gave it any thought due the line being relatively infrequently used for freight, but obviously you can't justify lack of care around H&S based on previous organisers getting away with it.

I completely agree the timetable is only valid for attempting to get on (or I guess see) a train - not to ensure you aren't hit by one!

Field of vision is definitely an issue, especially for the larger instruments. If you're carrying a tuba (especially the Bb Bass variant), you'll be lucky to see anything beyond your sheet of music and the metal of the instrument. Have a look at the tuba player closest to the camera on the front rank in this clip and you'll see what I mean:

 

[Railsigns]

It would be useful to know the type of level crossing involved. I note the suggestion that it may be an AHBC, but some AHBC crossings on the Northumberland Line have been, or are being, converted to MCB-OD as part of its reopening to passengers, and Google Streetview images may not be up to date.

 

[father_jack]

Or this youtube link with supporting quote below.....

Disaster was narrowly averted at the Paris-Roubaix one day classic race, after several cyclists rode around the barriers at a level crossing, missing an oncoming train by seconds.
The peloton were separated in the incident, which saw riders bunched behind the barriers waiting for the train to pass. Some cyclists, including French champion Arnaud Démare, chose to risk going around the barriers in an effort to keep up with those that had already crossed.
The one-day road race, which runs from Compiègne, 50 miles outside Paris, to the northern town of Roubaix, is renowned for its uncompromising route, which includes cobbled sections and level crossings. Despite this, the peloton appeared to be caught off guard at the crossing close to the town of Wallers in northeastern France, with a number of riders struck by the falling barrier. The peloton regrouped after the incident, allowing riders caught behind the barriers to catch up. Those who did make their way over the level crossing after the barriers came down could ultimately be disqualified from the race. The peloton regrouped after the incident, allowing riders caught behind the barriers to catch up. Those who did make their way over the level crossing after the barriers came down could ultimately be disqualified from the race.

 

[Ken X]

As others have stated you have a duty of care to those you are responsible for.

If you have any doubt as to the operation of the crossing I would stop the band at the white line and wait until you have clear space at the far side of the crossing suitable to contain the whole band. Then march across in silence with the clear instruction that if the amber light activates, the members who have not crossed the entry white line will halt. Use your own Marshall to enforce this if you deem it necessary. Reform at the far side if required and recommence parading.

Never assume somebody else has covered your backside. If the parade organisers don't like your proposal, whatever it is, that's their problem. There are times when you may have to be unpopular. The alternative is really not worth it.

Experience tells me the bod with the curly wig will ask you to justify your actions. You really, really do not want to be in this position unless you are on very firm ground.

 

[father_jack]

Don't rely on the timetable. Railway accidents, at least back to the one that shortened the life of Charles Dickens, have been caused when people assume trains will only arrive when they are supposed to.

Definitely this. There was a woman killed on the Aberystwyth line a few years back after her car was struck by an unscheduled train, she "knew" the timetable and had a list of times on her sunvisor......

 

[etr221]

My thought is that you treat the band as a block, that is - for the purpose of the crossing - a large, slow moving vehicle, that if a train does come, cannot readily stop or get off the crossing (and so should (and unless other arrangements have been made and agreed) will phone the signaller for permission to cross).
So you (the band) and the parade organisers more generally need to be liaising with Network Rail (in advance) and the signaller (on the day) as to plan/permission for the parade, in its various elements, of which the band is one (and which all will, to some extent, have similar issues as slow moving groups), to pass safely over the crossing.

 

[LondonExile]

My current thoughts are (assuming discussion with the wider organisers doesn't reveal any better plan) to work on the same principle as herding animals across... (hoping the band don't see this!)

I'm planning on seeing if I can get one of the band's supporters to act as a marshal, and phone from the crossing phone for permission, then signal to the drummer whether or not we're marching on, or stopping until permission is granted.

Not discussed it yet with wider parade, but that's my current thought

 

[Gloster]

One thought that does occur to me is that if you allow the parade to continue across the crossing, but with a marshal to halt it as soon as the lights starts, there is a risk that those that the marshal decides should keep going, while others behind them stop and wait, might become confused and stop on the crossing. Clear briefing beforehand should avoid this, but it needs to be clear and rammed into their heads.

 

[zwk500]

I'm planning on seeing if I can get one of the band's supporters to act as a marshal, and phone from the crossing phone for permission, then signal to the drummer whether or not we're marching on, or stopping until permission is granted.

This is a very sensible course of action.

Not discussed it yet with wider parade, but that's my current thought

Do encourage the wider parade to engage with NR soon, if they're given time to make arrangements it will go much, much smoother for everybody.

 

[Lpf93]

How long would it take for the entire band to pass over the crossing?

 

[LondonExile]

How long would it take for the entire band to pass over the crossing?

Probably 30 seconds or so for the band.

When you add in the parade as a whole, I'd guess at a good few minutes, but this is a good example of where the fact I'm only in any position of authority or responsibility for the band (rather than the whole parade) is a problem - I have no idea how many people or vehicles will be behind us!

Estimating it based off our remembrance day parade (which doesn't go over any level crossings!) and it would be over 5 mins to clear a section of road the same size as this crossing.

Whether this summer gala has more people or fewer than remembrance day is something I just don't know at this stage.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Might be a daft question, but should the parade even be on the road over the crossing or should it be on the "pedestrian" part of the crossing, it's a little different from joe bloggs not sticking within the lines compared to an organised event walking over

 

[Lpf93]

Probably 30 seconds or so for the band.

When you add in the parade as a whole, I'd guess at a good few minutes, but this is a good example of where the fact I'm only in any position of authority or responsibility for the band (rather than the whole parade) is a problem - I have no idea how many people or vehicles will be behind us!

Estimating it based off our remembrance day parade (which doesn't go over any level crossings!) and it would be over 5 mins to clear a section of road the same size as this crossing.

Whether this summer gala has more people or fewer than remembrance day is something I just don't know at this stage.

Do you know what line it is that you’ll be crossing?
I’d advise contacting the signal box before hand and network rail to make them aware the parade is happening but if it’s not a particularly busy line or there’s time for the parade to cross there shouldn’t be an issue (but still contact them). Like you’ve said just get someone to call up as the parade is moving closer and say you’ll need 5 minutes to cross for example. The signaller should then provide signal protection (put the signals to danger so a train can’t come while people are crossing) and then call the signaller back when everyone is clear of the crossing and trains can run normally