Paradise Papers: Tax Havens Exposed

[Darandio]

Very interesting news coming out tonight, the Queen mentioned as well as (unsurprisingly) Donald Trump.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41876942

A huge new leak of financial documents has revealed how the powerful and ultra-wealthy, including the Queen's private estate, secretly invest vast amounts of cash in offshore tax havens.

Donald Trump's commerce secretary is shown to have a stake in a firm dealing with Russians sanctioned by the US.

The leak, dubbed the Paradise Papers contains 13.4m documents, mostly from one leading firm in offshore finance.

BBC Panorama is part of nearly 100 media groups investigating the papers.

Sunday's revelations form only a small part of a week of disclosures that will expose the tax and financial affairs of some of the hundreds of people and companies named in the data, some with strong UK connections.

Many of the stories focus on how politicians, multinationals, celebrities and high-net-worth individuals use complex structures of trusts, foundations and shell companies to protect their cash from tax officials or hide their dealings behind a veil of secrecy.

 

[Barn]

The advantage Her Majesty has is that she's also Queen of many tax havens, so they're not 'offshore' for her.

 

[KashmireHawker]

If this doesn't make folk right across the globe shudder, of how the richest of the rich get away with financial murder, then I don't have a clue what else will. A very impressive sized Investigation, which exposes many more inequalities across our nation.

If only they were put out there during the General Election!

 

[SS4]

Everyone, please remember this when we're told that we need to make cuts that (as usual) the poorest in society will face.

 

[Darandio]

The advantage Her Majesty has is that she's also Queen of many tax havens, so they're not 'offshore' for her.

A good point!

One point many are questioning this morning is that the Queen has invested in Brighthouse, even though the sum invested is very small.

 

[DarloRich]

but nothing will happen beyond some tutting. The only hope is that some of these people are shamed into paying their share. I doubt many of them care. They consider themselves to be (and practically almost are) above the law. HMRC will do a deal and settle for a fraction of the owed sums.

Personally I would like to see the government peruse the tax cheats as hard as the benefit cheats. I would like to see 30 ft tall billboards in every town with these people named and shamed. They wont of course. The fancy lawyers, accountants and political connections retained by these rich people will see to that. Much easier to go after the scum and shame them or the jobbing electrician not quite up to date with his VAT.

 

[Barn]

I don't think I have a problem with people investing after-tax money elsewhere in the world.

I do have a problem with overseas funds carrying out transactions in the UK (including making loans, owning and developing property, selling things to customers, employing people, etc) but not paying the same tax as a UK-domiciled person would on those same transactions.

 

[Hornet]

Personally I would like to see the government peruse the tax cheats as hard as the benefit cheats. I would like to see 30 ft tall billboards in every town with these people named and shamed. They wont of course. The fancy lawyers, accountants and political connections retained by these rich people will see to that. Much easier to go after the scum and shame them or the jobbing electrician not quite up to date with his VAT.

Hear, Hear. Here is one such person that should be getting such treatment. What's good for the goose, etc, etc.

https://www.theparliamentmagazine.e...owing-claims-he-secretly-blocked-eu-tax-rules

 

[DarloRich]

Hear, Hear. Here is one such person that should be getting such treatment. What's good for the goose, etc, etc.

https://www.theparliamentmagazine.e...owing-claims-he-secretly-blocked-eu-tax-rules

we kind of gave up our rights to do anything about the EU recently. Personally I would prefer we focus on those robbing our country. We will need everyone of those pennies soon.....................

 

[Minilad]

Don't forget....we are all in this together

 

[DarloRich]

Don't forget....we are all in this together

PIP PIP old bean. tally ho. They are in in together. We are in it together. Sadly IT differs depending on wealth.

 

[DaleCooper]

Shouldn't this be "Parasite Papers"?

 

[northwichcat]

A key aide of Canada's PM is linked to offshore schemes that may have cost the nation millions of dollars in taxes, the Paradise Papers show.

The revelations may embarrass Justin Trudeau, who has campaigned against tax havens.

The leaks pose questions about the actions of Stephen Bronfman, chief fundraiser for Mr Trudeau's Liberal Party as well as ex-senator Leo Kolber.

Lawyers for them said no deals had tried to evade tax and all were legal.

Canadian broadcaster, CBC, and the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (ICIJ) have been spearheading this investigation as part of the Paradise Papers leaks.

They said a trove of documents found in the files of Appleby, the offshore law firm that is the main source of the leaks, suggested that Mr Bronfman's investment firm, Claridge, had for more than 20 years moved millions offshore for the Kolber family.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41877065

I wonder what effect this might have. Trudeau has agreed in principle that Canada will trade with the UK on the same terms post-Brexit but if this damages his reputation and he doesn't remain as PM then we effectively have no agreement in place with Canada. Trudeau's Liberal Party is also a lot more anti-Trump than the Canadian Conservatives.

 

[KN1]

Watching the odious Corbyn spouting off today I notice he failed to mention that Labour rent their London headquarters from a tax exempt property unit trust fund based offshore in Jersey. All rent paid on the property goes to Jersey. Every major trades union will also be investing in offshore trusts to avoid tax..All the BBC and the Guardian have discovered is totally legal investments in correctly audited accounts to reduce or avoid tax liability, anyone who has an ISA is doing exactly the same.The individuals who have had their personal tax and financial details revealed will no doubt be instructing lawyers immediately as confidentiality in legal affairs is not something the BBC and the Guardian can just ignore because they don't think "it's right".

The Guardian with it's financial set-up is The biggest hypocrite of all time.
The BBC who employ all those presenters and others being paid via a tax exempt company are equally hypocritical but being the BBC that's par for the course. Now they have been found out by diligent reporting and have promised to change they think they're being really moral bashing a few individuals.

 

[northwichcat]

Actually ISAs no longer make any difference for most people. George Osborne introduced a £1000 tax free savings allowance and with low interest rates most people don't earn over £1000 in interest. It's also different as the ISA is a scheme introduced by the government to encourage people to save and encouraging people to save reduces the amount of out of work benefits being paid when people lose their jobs.

 

[Howardh]

Just remember, all those of you who voted Brexit, how many of your beloved leaders are too poor to move to a tax-haven should Brexit go all bottoms-up?

 

[Bromley boy]

Most people who work in the tax profession would tell you the best away to reduce tax avoidance, and raise revenues, would be to simplify the system. This would reduce compliance costs and (crucially) reduce uncertainty for businesses.

The UK tax system, as it currently stands, is unbelievably complex. It’s layer upon layer of legislation, subsequent anti-avoidance legislation which has unintended consequences, and further amendment legislation to reverse said unintended consequences. The combined volumes of the “yellow book” stand several feet high, comprised of bible-thin pages.

As rational, self interested individuals, well advised taxpayers will pay what they are legally required to pay and no more. That amount is precisely the same as what they are morally required to pay, in my view.

Talking about a “fair share”, without reference to what is legally required to be paid, is a bit like saying that driving at 29mph is morally inferior to driving at 25mph when the speed limit is 30mph.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Long gone indeed is the time when Britain sent out warships under Letters of Marque to enforce their will on those financial miscreants

 

[Condor7]

Well as usual there is a lot of huffing and puffing about the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

There are two issues here, tax evasion and tax avoidance. Tax evasion is illegal and anyone doing that should not only be ashamed but should get punished severely.

Tax avoidance however is perfectly legal. It is not however something most of us know anything about, and if like me you have been in business most of your life you rely on accountants to give you advice to ensure you only pay what tax you have to. Accountancy is a world I know very little about so when my accountant says, “if you do this” or “ if you do that it will save you money” my usual response is “great if it is legal then go for it” Not that I have ever had enough to invest in tax havens, but there are hundreds of other ways of legally reducing your tax bill.

Is there really anyone on this forum that would turn round to their accountants and say any different? I doubt it.

 

[furnessvale]

Just remember, all those of you who voted Brexit, how many of your beloved leaders are too poor to move to a tax-haven should Brexit go all bottoms-up?

As opposed to all those remain leaders ensuring that their EU gravy train continues?

 

[BlythPower]

Is there really anyone on this forum that would turn round to their accountants and say any different? I doubt it.

There will be few on this forum who can afford the services of an accountant.

 

[Dai Corner]

There will be few on this forum who can afford the services of an accountant.

Aren't there any self-employed or business owners interested in railways? Virtually all of them will use an accountant. Accountants often sell their services on the basis that they can save their clients more than the fees they charge.

 

[AlterEgo]

Aren't there any self-employed or business owners interested in railways? Virtually all of them will use an accountant.

Indeed, you'd be surprised how many people need to use them. I use them to manage (small) second and third incomes - I'm not rich, but my finances aren't entirely simple and a tax violation would impact my career.

 

[DarloRich]

Watching the odious Corbyn spouting off today I notice he failed to mention that Labour rent their London headquarters from a tax exempt property unit trust fund based offshore in Jersey. All rent paid on the property goes to Jersey. Every major trades union will also be investing in offshore trusts to avoid tax..All the BBC and the Guardian have discovered is totally legal investments in correctly audited accounts to reduce or avoid tax liability, anyone who has an ISA is doing exactly the same.The individuals who have had their personal tax and financial details revealed will no doubt be instructing lawyers immediately as confidentiality in legal affairs is not something the BBC and the Guardian can just ignore because they don't think "it's right".

lets see how many of these outraged people rush to the law and seek damages. That's right none. Why? Because more details will come out in any court case and it isnt worth the bad publicity. They will just change accountants and move on to the next sca, sorry legal tax planning vehicle.

The Guardian with it's financial set-up is The biggest hypocrite of all time.
The BBC who employ all those presenters and others being paid via a tax exempt company are equally hypocritical but being the BBC that's par for the course. Now they have been found out by diligent reporting and have promised to change they think they're being really moral bashing a few individuals.

So this shouldn't be reported and everything is ok? Odd that the Sun, Mail and Express are not at the forefront of bringing this to light. I wonder why? I would rather accept the alleged hypocrisy and have a light shone on this subject than brush it under the carpet and pretend everything is ok

Most people who work in the tax profession would tell you the best away to reduce tax avoidance, and raise revenues, would be to simplify the system. This would reduce compliance costs and (crucially) reduce uncertainty for businesses.

The UK tax system, as it currently stands, is unbelievably complex. It’s layer upon layer of legislation, subsequent anti-avoidance legislation which has unintended consequences, and further amendment legislation to reverse said unintended consequences. The combined volumes of the “yellow book” stand several feet high, comprised of bible-thin pages.

As rational, self interested individuals, well advised taxpayers will pay what they are legally required to pay and no more. That amount is precisely the same as what they are morally required to pay, in my view.

Talking about a “fair share”, without reference to what is legally required to be paid, is a bit like saying that driving at 29mph is morally inferior to driving at 25mph when the speed limit is 30mph.

These people are robbing us, pure and simple and being allowed to do so by a bent system. That is morally wrong and the people making use of these "tax planning vehicles" are morally wrong. Legal or otherwise it isnt right and you know it. However it is much easier to screw the benefit scum and the jobbing builder not quite up to date on the VAT than the rich.

Please, simplify the system, close the loop holes and make everyone pay what they owe. Go after the rich and screw them as hard as the benefit cheats. Don't do "sweetheart" deals ( see Private Eye) allowing these mega rich people and corporations to pay a fraction of what they owe. Make them feel pain.

Indeed, you'd be surprised how many people need to use them. I use them to manage (small) second and third incomes - I'm not rich, but my finances aren't entirely simple and a tax violation would impact my career.

There is a difference, surely, between high street accountants serving local SME business and "magic circle" firms advising mutli nationals and the super rich.

 

[Dai Corner]

Even Labour Party Properties Ltd arrange their affairs so as to avoid paying tax

 

[AlterEgo]

There is a difference, surely, between high street accountants serving local SME business and "magic circle" firms advising mutli nationals and the super rich.

Probably - I doubt my accountant could tell me about how to stash my money in the Cayman Islands.

 

[DarloRich]

Probably - I doubt my accountant could tell me about how to stash my money in the Cayman Islands.

My accountant (my girlfriend) knows I haven't got the cash to stash in Hayling Island let alone the Cayman Islands!

 

[Bromley boy]

These people are robbing us, pure and simple and being allowed to do so by a bent system. That is morally wrong and the people making use of these "tax planning vehicles" are morally wrong. Legal or otherwise it isnt right and you know it. However it is much easier to screw the benefit scum and the jobbing builder not quite up to date on the VAT than the rich.

Please, simplify the system, close the loop holes and make everyone pay what they owe. Go after the rich and screw them as hard as the benefit cheats. Don't do "sweetheart" deals ( see Private Eye) allowing these mega rich people and corporations to pay a fraction of what they owe. Make them feel pain.

Simplifying the system would definitely help. It's not as simple as closing loopholes as this often has unintended consequences and can end up taxing activities that are not intended to be targeted.

The problem with the rest of your statement is that it's completely unrealistic. Morality simply doesn't come into it. People and businesses already pay what they owe, otherwise they are acting illegally. But there's absolutely nothing immoral about arranging your tax affairs so as to pay the minimum required amount of tax.

How do you suggest businesses or individuals calculate what they owe if not by reference to law and accepted accounting practices? The world of business operates on certainty, not morality.

Do you have an ISA? If so, you're also engaging in tax avoidance. Do you believe that makes you morally inferior to someone who does not? Do you ring up the treasury and volunteer to pay a higher rate of tax than you are required to? Of course not. You will pay the minimum amount of tax you are legally required to.

 

[DarloRich]

Simplifying the system would definitely help. It's not as simple as closing loopholes as this often has unintended consequences and can end up taxing activities that are not intended to be targeted.

It is that simple. The rules that apply to me should apply to them. One set of rules, no exemptions. No refunds for VAT on private jets whether leased or purchased!

The problem with the rest of your statement is that it's completely unrealistic. Morality simply doesn't come into it. People and businesses already pay what they owe, otherwise they are acting illegally. But there's absolutely nothing immoral about arranging your tax affairs so as to pay the minimum required amount of tax.

We have different morals then. The rich are laughing at us working our nads off and paying tax. You seem happy to let them. Why?

How do you suggest businesses or individuals calculate what they owe if not by reference to law and accepted accounting practices? The world of business operates on certainty, not morality.

We, the public, will decide. If it smells wrong it is wrong.

Do you have an ISA? If so, you're also engaging in tax avoidance. Do you believe that makes you morally inferior to someone who does not? Do you ring up the treasury and volunteer to pay a higher rate of tax than you are required to? Of course not. You will pay the minimum amount of tax you are legally required to.

I don't have an ISA because I don't have the money to save. I pay my income tax and VAT. Why should the rich earning millions pay less in tax than me? Do you not see how wrong that is?

EDIT: Morality does come into it if you are in trade. Bad publicity can be toxic to business performance. Being labelled a tax cheat in the media cant be good for sales and income.

EDIT 2 - i shouldn't allow this to wind me up and should just take your approach that the law allows them to do this so they are doing nothing wrong. However I can't get away from the thought that it IS wrong the law allows this to happen. It shouldn't.

Also being the cynical and suspicious type that I am I suspect this is merely the tip of the iceberg and that much worse is going on.

 

[northwichcat]

Do you have an ISA? If so, you're also engaging in tax avoidance. Do you believe that makes you morally inferior to someone who does not? Do you ring up the treasury and volunteer to pay a higher rate of tax than you are required to? Of course not. You will pay the minimum amount of tax you are legally required to.

As I already explained in an earlier post an ISA is product the government introduced to encourage people to save. How much money you have in savings affects how much you can get in benefits if you lose your job, also without people putting savings in to banks and building societies more people would find they wouldn't be able to get a mortgage. So ISAs benefit the UK economy - how does putting money in some hidden account in the Cayman Islands help the UK economy?

Also as already stated George Osborne introduced a £1,000 personal savings allowance so many people with ISAs could now move the money to ordinary accounts and still not pay any tax on the interest.