Part of Northern/TPE solution to replace Chiltern bound 170s revealed

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aformeruser

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I don't think anyone was expecting this:

Arriva Rail North (ARN) is seeking contingent access rights to operate one additional
weekday service from Bradford Interchange to Leeds calling at Bramley and New Pudsey.
The service will operate using a Class 180 which is being leased from Grand Central.

This service is being introduced until December 2017 to allow ARN to undertake a complex
DMU rolling stock cascade that will cover existing services once the remaining 170s are
released by Transpennine Express.

In order to free up units to implement the rolling cascade two existing services will be
shortened.
1. 06.59 Huddersfield – Leeds
2. 06.46 Manchester Victoria - Leeds

The new service between Bradford Interchange and Leeds will pick up the capacity from the
shortening of the services in order to allow us to carry our passengers into Leeds in the
morning peak.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...6/form-p class 180 july 2016 rev 16 05 16.pdf
 
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Starmill

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Wow, I think you were right about unexpected!

"Northern is seeking to insert the table to reflect the contingent rights sought from 10th July
2016
The rights that are being sought are contingent until December 2017."
 
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Bletchleyite

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Are they really *leasing* the 180, or is it just operating that shuttle prior to doing a proper GC service, or indeed extending that service back?
 

aformeruser

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Are they really *leasing* the 180, or is it just operating that shuttle prior to doing a proper GC service, or indeed extending that service back?

I think they mean loan, in the same way they are currently loaning 185s. If they were leasing it they would be making far better use of the unit.
 

61653 HTAFC

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I think they mean loan, in the same way they are currently loaning 185s. If they were leasing it they would be making far better use of the unit.

Though that would deprive GC of a unit- this solution is more like what one might have expected from a unified British Rail! One advantage of both Northern and Grand Central being Arriva subsidiaries I suppose.
 
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Adam0984

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I'd heard this rumour about a month ago. It will utilise the set that does the 10:XX Bradford to Kings Cross. It will be crewed by GC driver and guard but operated as a Northern service to avoid the ban GC have in Leeds station
 

Bletchleyite

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I guess it also avoids the issue Chiltern encountered whereby it was found to be in breach of their franchise agreement to provide some of their franchised service by way of agreement for carriage on an Open Access operation i.e. WSMR.
 

tbtc

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Good news.

In an ideal world, we'd see a similar "solution" applied with the Grand Central unit that forms the 08:42 from Sunderland to London being used as a peak time queue buster from Darlington/ Durham into Newcastle in the morning rush hour (it currently passes through Newcastle just after eight o'clock, running light from Heaton to Wearside) - given the gaps in long distance services *into* Newcastle at that time of the day.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y71358/2016/06/09/advanced - forms http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y71305/2016/06/09/advanced
 

61653 HTAFC

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I'd heard this rumour about a month ago. It will utilise the set that does the 10:XX Bradford to Kings Cross. It will be crewed by GC driver and guard but operated as a Northern service to avoid the ban GC have in Leeds station

I had wondered how this would be crewed- given that even those Northern crews that previously worked 180s would have not retained the traction knowledge and in any case are the wrong side of the hills anyway.
 

Starmill

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I don't think banned is quite the term, it's merely that Grand Central wouldn't be granted access by the ORR for a Bradford to Leeds service. This service is already required by the Northern franchise, its merely them hiring additional stock and crew to do that for them. Just as they hired additional stock and crew in Manchester at Christmas 2014, or when the Tour de France was on, and they do with 185s and TP Manchester Airport crew.
 
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Andyh82

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Presumably it is running back to Bradford from Leeds ECS rather than in a return working?
 

lejog

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Good news.

Not good news at all for commuters from Halifax (and points west?) , who it appears are going to have 2 car services replacing 4 car to Bradford and Leeds departing at 7.20am and 7.30am.

I can't say I travel on these trains, if I go to Leeds in the rush hour I catch a Blackpool North service, which is a 3 car 158 leaving Halifax at 7.48 and typically has people standing from Halifax, quite a few leaving at Bradford with even more joining, so is packed by New Pudsey.

This may maintain capacity into Leeds (which I suspect is what is required of Arriva in the franchise agreement) but seems to be a terrible cut in capacity into Bradford and Leeds from the west.

Can anyone who travels on these services confirm their normal configuration? Are they a sprinter+pacer pairing or 4 car 150s? How full are they from Halifax?

I assume Northern mean the 6.36 departure from Victoria in their application, which is a Calder Valley service - the 6.46 is a Liverpool to Newcastle TPE service.
 
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3270

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Can anyone who travels on these services confirm their normal configuration? Are they a sprinter+pacer pairing or 4 car 150s?
0659 Huddersfield - Leeds (0738 from Bradford) is typically a 2-car 158 plus either a 142 or 2-car 144.
0636 Man Vic - Leeds (0750 from Bradford) is typically a 2-car 158 plus a 150/2.

The track access application mentions a "complex DMU rolling stock cascade" which I suppose might result in a 3-car 158 covering these services (the Man Vic - Leeds would be the most likely of the two) so things might not be quite as bad as feared.
 

aformeruser

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The track access application mentions a "complex DMU rolling stock cascade" which I suppose might result in a 3-car 158 covering these services (the Man Vic - Leeds would be the most likely of the two) so things might not be quite as bad as feared.

I imagine the complexity refers to 142s and 150s being freed up but needing 156s (or 158s - even more complex) to replace the 185s.

The recent Hazel Grove/Chinley changes released a couple of non-156 units in the evening peak.
 

61653 HTAFC

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0659 Huddersfield - Leeds (0738 from Bradford) is typically a 2-car 158 plus either a 142 or 2-car 144.
0636 Man Vic - Leeds (0750 from Bradford) is typically a 2-car 158 plus a 150/2.

The track access application mentions a "complex DMU rolling stock cascade" which I suppose might result in a 3-car 158 covering these services (the Man Vic - Leeds would be the most likely of the two) so things might not be quite as bad as feared.

How does the 0659 serve Deighton? Is the rear unit locked out until Mirfield or does the guard simply warn passengers that they need to be in the front? Of course there won't be many wishing to alight there at that time of day in any case.

EDIT: Just realised as a via Bradford service it won't call at Deighton anyway- I was thrown as xx59 is usually the via Dewsbury service.
 
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Greybeard33

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Would this mean the DMU cascade would be applicable from July 10th?
From 11 July there is a timetable change that means Northern needs Sprinter(s) to replace a 185 diagram on Barrow - Lancaster - Preston - Windermere services. See http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=128479.

Presumably this ties in with the date TPE loses its last four 170s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Rail North Update report to the 9 June meeting of the Association of Rail North Partner Authorities (thanks to LNW-GW Joint for posting the link on the Northern franchise thread) gives some background to the changes:
Rolling Stock Changes for July 2016

3.13. On 1 April 2016, some TPE services remapped to the Northern franchise. This
required TPE to sub-lease 5 Class 185 trains to Northern. The bids for both TPE and
Northern had this as a bid assumption. However, as the result of the transfer of the
remaining 4 Class 170 trains from TPE to Chiltern, this would have resulted in a
shortfall of units for TPE to operate its own services.

3.14. TransPennine Express’s 4x Class 170s have now been secured until July 2016. Arriva
and First developed a joint proposal to the Department on how they propose to
resource the period July 2016 – December 2017. This is an industry led solution
guided by a number of agreed core objectives that include ensuring the best possible
service coverage, minimising passenger disruption and delivering a cost effective use
of taxpayer money.

3.15. This has now been contracted through amendments to both Franchise Agreements.
An overall uplift in peak capacity will be provided as a result of the changes. Full
details will be provided by both Northern and Arriva in the coming weeks.

3.16. Northern are preparing a communications plan for the changes and will work closely
with Rail North and DfT to ensure that customers and key stakeholders are aware of
the changes.
http://www.railnorth.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/ARNPA-090616-Update.pdf

I do not think the amendments to the Franchise Agreements are yet in the public domain. We will have to wait for the remaining details to come out over the next few weeks.
 
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Class 170101

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Not good news at all for commuters from Halifax (and points west?) , who it appears are going to have 2 car services replacing 4 car to Bradford and Leeds departing at 7.20am and 7.30am.

I can't say I travel on these trains, if I go to Leeds in the rush hour I catch a Blackpool North service, which is a 3 car 158 leaving Halifax at 7.48 and typically has people standing from Halifax, quite a few leaving at Bradford with even more joining, so is packed by New Pudsey.

This may maintain capacity into Leeds (which I suspect is what is required of Arriva in the franchise agreement) but seems to be a terrible cut in capacity into Bradford and Leeds from the west.

Why not start the GC unit from Halifax or Hudderfield if there is a capacity problem? I would have thought the route from Crofton to Bradford Interchange would be easier to find a path via Halifax than Leeds West anyway.
 

Haydn1971

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Interesting comments in this thread, just goes to show what a tangled knife edge mess that the northern franchise was in and what a difficult job planning the upgrades, repaints and such will be until new units start coming into service in significant numbers.
 

Rich McLean

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Why not start the GC unit from Halifax or Hudderfield if there is a capacity problem? I would have thought the route from Crofton to Bradford Interchange would be easier to find a path via Halifax than Leeds West anyway.

The Guard boards the GC set at Bradford, so that's a no go, as nice as it would be
 

Starmill

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The Guard boards the GC set at Bradford, so that's a no go, as nice as it would be

And obstacle, certainly. But insurmountable? Unlikely. If money were available for the crew time, I'm sure they could be taxied to Halifax. It depends how many passengers use those services from Halifax.
 

61653 HTAFC

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And obstacle, certainly. But insurmountable? Unlikely. If money were available for the crew time, I'm sure they could be taxied to Halifax. It depends how many passengers use those services from Halifax.

Also I'm not sure there'd be platform space at Huddersfield at that time in the morning- platform 4 is the only one that is both long enough and reversible, and I'm not sure you'd fit a 180 in the Leeds end and not be fouling the signalling section for the Manchester stopper using the other end.
 

Starmill

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It almost certainly wouldn't need to start at Huddersfield. The risk is probably just Halifax - Bradford.
 

Adam0984

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The set is planned to come ECS from Crofton coupled with the 1st Bradford to London
 

Starmill

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I wonder what the proposed departure time from Bradford Interchange will be...
 

WatcherZero

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Diagram changes due to Chiltern 170/introduction of replacement

19:00 Manchester Airport-Barrow in Furness changes from 3 car 185 to 3 car Northern unit with an increased capacity

17:23 Manchester Piccadilly to Hazel Grove introduction of class 323

Following services will remain as four car but with reduced seating capacity,
07:57 Wigan NW – Victoria
08:21 Blackpool North – Huddersfield
08:44 Victoria – Southport
10:23 Southport – Manchester Airport
11:15 Huddersfield – Wigan Wallgate
12:03 Manchester Airport – Southport
13:45 Wigan Wallgate – Stalybridge
14:23 Southport – Manchester Airport
15:08 Stalybridge – Victoria
16:03 Manchester Airport – Southport
16:11 Victoria – Stalybridge
16:30 Stalybridge – Wigan Wallgate
18:15 Southport – Manchester Airport
18:24 Wigan Wallgate – Victoria
19:35 Victoria – Wigan Wallgate
20:03 Manchester Airport – Southport
22:18 Southport – Manchester Piccadilly

The following which were 4 car will now be 2 car
03:38 Lime Street – Manchester Airport
04:34 Manchester Airport – Lime Street
06:36 Victoria-Leeds
18:14 Victoria – Wigan NW
19:03 Wigan NW – Lime Street
 

Starmill

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Well it looks like they've gotten away with that then. The only one which makes me pause is the 0757 Wigan North Western to Manchester Victoria, with an 0839 arrival time. Presumably this was the least overcrowded one they could find, and as it's only doing 3 Atherton line calls hopefully it will be able to cope.
 
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