• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Parts of 7027 Thornbury Castle to be used for new build 47XX.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ashley Hill

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2019
Messages
3,271
Location
The West Country
unrestored, for more than 50 years!
You keep bringing this up. There are still plenty of steam locos that haven’t run for that length of time,both industrial and mainline. It’s not really an excuse to break them for parts. Rocket is not restored and hasn’t steamed for 150 years,would you suggest it’s not worth saving?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bessie

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
259
You keep bringing this up. There are still plenty of steam locos that haven’t run for that length of time,both industrial and mainline. It’s not really an excuse to break them for parts. Rocket is not restored and hasn’t steamed for 150 years,would you suggest it’s not worth saving?
Rocket is the most famous steam loco in the world with Flying Scotsman a close 2nd. The reality with Thornbury Castle is unless a group/individual have a significant six figure sum ready by Easter the current sale will continue. As to what happens next is anyone's guess.
 

Ashley Hill

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2019
Messages
3,271
Location
The West Country
Yes, because it is entirely relevant! There seems to be huge outrage over the possible loss of 7027, a valid question is why that outrage has never resulted in getting the loco restored and running?
Being passed around different owners hasn’t helped. Once broken it is gone forever. An original loco replaced by a fake and that’s all a 47xx will ever be,a fake.
 
Joined
20 Nov 2019
Messages
693
Location
Merthyr Tydfil
This project isn't preservation, it's fiction. Simple as that. From what I can tell it won't even result in an authentic recreation of a 47xx. I'm not against new builds provided they're built from scratch, and not at the cost of a genuine engine.

"Oh but it hasn't been restored for 50 years". Ok then, while we're at it let's just let all the Bulleid Pacifics and the other engines still waiting to be restored rot. Or tear them up for more inaccurate recreations of extinct classes.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,308
You keep bringing this up. There are still plenty of steam locos that haven’t run for that length of time,both industrial and mainline. It’s not really an excuse to break them for parts. Rocket is not restored and hasn’t steamed for 150 years,would you suggest it’s not worth saving?

Yes, because it is entirely relevant! There seems to be huge outrage over the possible loss of 7027, a valid question is why that outrage has never resulted in getting the loco restored and running?
Actually, yes it is entirely relevant. We've all seen the wrecks that seem to litter every preserved railway and it's not a good look - it doesn't give a good impression.

Any vehicle at a preserved railway should have a purpose:
1. Operational
2. Restoration - in which case it should have a plan in place for the work to be done with an expected timescale for completion
3. Exhibition - non-operational items that are cosmetically restored as part of an exhibition or similar
4. Parts donor - keep them hidden out of the way as far as possible, but they are needed

Anything else should be binned. I would suggest a loco (or more likely bits that were once a loco) that hasn't had any work done on it in 20/30/40/50 years falls in the "bin" category. It certainly isn't likely to be restored and isn't going to be providing much/anything in the way of parts, either.
 

Trainlog

Member
Joined
16 Aug 2022
Messages
257
Location
Maidstone
Actually, yes it is entirely relevant. We've all seen the wrecks that seem to litter every preserved railway and it's not a good look - it doesn't give a good impression.

Any vehicle at a preserved railway should have a purpose:
1. Operational
2. Restoration - in which case it should have a plan in place for the work to be done with an expected timescale for completion
3. Exhibition - non-operational items that are cosmetically restored as part of an exhibition or similar
4. Parts donor - keep them hidden out of the way as far as possible, but they are needed

Anything else should be binned. I would suggest a loco (or more likely bits that were once a loco) that hasn't had any work done on it in 20/30/40/50 years falls in the "bin" category. It certainly isn't likely to be restored and isn't going to be providing much/anything in the way of parts, either.
(Sighs) yes this is a problem for a lot of lines, however, it can be attributed to the 'ill get round to it eventually' mentality. For example The Bluebell railway has a huge backlog of locos in its workshop that many have taken well over a decade to make progress on and only really in the past couple of years has it had the epiphany of we cant keep hoarding all these locos and now they sold off the USA tank and wouldn't be surprised if a 4mt or the London tank leaves the line in the next 5 years.

In some cases there might actually be a demand to restore a Barry loco but its blocked in the workshops by a slow moving project that isn't great at making efforts to raise funds or gathering attention to their project so its out of the workshops so that the Barry project can move in. Going back to my Bluebell railway example, the 2mt project has barely moved along in 20 years, Stowe should have been done by now if their fundraising campaign was stronger as the Tender was in good condition pre overhaul, and the Primrose project is essentially rebuilding a loco all over again due to how bad the deterioration was on it. Frankly the Fenchurch, Camelot, and Brighton Atlantic project have come across as the most confident there in the past decade and have been successful due to the fact they updated us regularly on its condition and people where confident to give them funds in return.

And for your 3rd argument, yeah i admit its near starting from scratch but if there is demand for new parts for a loco class by many societies they can do them in batches and its an excuse to make them up rather than constant one offs.

In some cases a Barry loco can brighten a heritage railway up if a particular society and line gets it. The KESR is seeing 4253 almost as a silver bullet for the line as it will last longer without needing to take on water when Robertsbridge is done. The Gloswarks fleet these days comprises on seeing barry locos being brought back with P&O line, their 4mt and the 28xx.

In order for a barry scrapyard loco to succeed, here are some good conditions for it to do so.

1.) its at a line that isn't over-saturated by many former big railway locos and its a line that many people have just about heard of in passing. bonus points if most of the current fleet there is mainly industrial tank engines or diesels so the spotlight turns to the Barry Wreck in return to interest enthusiasts.
2.) The society who is restoring the loco is determined to do so and is willing to show up to events such as model railway exhibitions, galas etc etc and posts monthly to keep stakeholders and interested enthusiasts in the know
3.) There is signs of progress being made with the loco with workshop photos, pieces being worked on etc etc.

Thornbury had a good campaign before this summer, and was good at updating us about its progress.
 

D6968

Member
Joined
30 Sep 2021
Messages
433
Actually, yes it is entirely relevant. We've all seen the wrecks that seem to litter every preserved railway and it's not a good look - it doesn't give a good impression.

Any vehicle at a preserved railway should have a purpose:
1. Operational
2. Restoration - in which case it should have a plan in place for the work to be done with an expected timescale for completion
3. Exhibition - non-operational items that are cosmetically restored as part of an exhibition or similar
4. Parts donor - keep them hidden out of the way as far as possible, but they are needed

Anything else should be binned. I would suggest a loco (or more likely bits that were once a loco) that hasn't had any work done on it in 20/30/40/50 years falls in the "bin" category. It certainly isn't likely to be restored and isn't going to be providing much/anything in the way of parts, either.
So we should just bin the likes of 80064 or 80100 then? They haven’t worked worked for a while have they?
We’re still waiting for a 72xx tank to work in pres, shall we just bin them too?
It took a while to get 50026 back in action despite and that had a significant setback with it falling off its jacks, 50021’s had problems… 1501 wasn’t exactly a straightforward restoration, we’re still awaiting 4150 to return to action… 34101 is still being supposed to be returning to traffic ‘next year’ and it’s been like that since 2012.
I’m guessing you’ve never been involved with a restoration project have you?
 
Last edited:

xotGD

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
6,089
Going back to my Bluebell railway example, the 2mt project has barely moved along in 20 years, Stowe should have been done by now if their fundraising campaign was stronger as the Tender was in good condition pre overhaul, and the Primrose project is essentially rebuilding a loco all over again due to how bad the deterioration was on it. Frankly the Fenchurch, Camelot, and Brighton Atlantic project have come across as the most confident there in the past decade and have been successful due to the fact they updated us regularly on its condition and people where confident to give them funds in return.
It sounds like they should be concentrating their efforts on one loco to get it operational, not spreading their resources across six or more.
 

Ashley Hill

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2019
Messages
3,271
Location
The West Country
Actually, yes it is entirely relevant. We've all seen the wrecks that seem to litter every preserved railway and it's not a good look - it doesn't give a good impression.

Ah yes,the linear scrapyard. It is a problem I agree but what to do about it. I volunteer on a railway that is littered with a variety of rot. Some of it is privately owned and the owner is either getting on a bit or ran out of money. Sometimes a vehicle is the last of its type therefore technically historic. How far does it go before threatening to scrap it as beyond repair or evict it.
It’s the same for Thornbury. Whilst not unique in its class it is genuine and not a fake and is not beyond repair.
 

Trainlog

Member
Joined
16 Aug 2022
Messages
257
Location
Maidstone
It sounds like they should be concentrating their efforts on one loco to get it operational, not spreading their resources across six or more.
Fortunately, they have acknowledged this recently as their isn't as many operational locos on the Bluebell as there was 10 years ago. One of the members of the 9f team said that they should consider an approach just like you have said so that there is less of a backlog in the workshops going forwards.
 

D6968

Member
Joined
30 Sep 2021
Messages
433
It sounds like they should be concentrating their efforts on one loco to get it operational, not spreading their resources across six or more.
You can’t tell people what to spend their money on though.
 

Alanko

Member
Joined
2 May 2019
Messages
641
Location
Somewhere between Waverley and Queen Street.
I sometimes think too many locomotives were saved from Barry. A smaller pool of locos would have sharpened minds and funnelled resources more efficiently.

I think 50 years is enough time to do nothing with a loco. A but like the Castle that went to Japan; heaven forbid, the new owners might give it a coat of paint and store it indoors! Blasphemy! Some old duffers were going to restore it to working order some time in the next few decades. Honest.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,308
Ah yes,the linear scrapyard. It is a problem I agree but what to do about it. I volunteer on a railway that is littered with a variety of rot. Some of it is privately owned and the owner is either getting on a bit or ran out of money. Sometimes a vehicle is the last of its type therefore technically historic. How far does it go before threatening to scrap it as beyond repair or evict it.
It’s the same for Thornbury. Whilst not unique in its class it is genuine and not a fake and is not beyond repair.
It's up to the railways themselves to sort it out. Putting proper contractual agreements in place for vehicles to be on site would be a start, with contracts stating what the vehicles are to be used for. If vehicles aren't being restored/used/whatever as agreed in the contract and are clearly just dumped there in the hope that some day something might happen, then the railways should review at each contract break point and if necessary have the vehicle removed from site. If railways actually did that, then it might focus minds a bit.
 

Trainlog

Member
Joined
16 Aug 2022
Messages
257
Location
Maidstone
I sometimes think too many locomotives were saved from Barry. A smaller pool of locos would have sharpened minds and funnelled resources more efficiently.

I think 50 years is enough time to do nothing with a loco. A but like the Castle that went to Japan; heaven forbid, the new owners might give it a coat of paint and store it indoors! Blasphemy! Some old duffers were going to restore it to working order some time in the next few decades. Honest.
I remember seeing Dumbleton Hall at Buckfastleigh back in 2016 and the paint was definitely fading away on the old loco - glad it will be restored to a good home, albeit overseas.
 

Teaboy1

Member
Joined
12 Feb 2009
Messages
529
Location
Tickhill SY
It's up to the railways themselves to sort it out. Putting proper contractual agreements in place for vehicles to be on site would be a start, with contracts stating what the vehicles are to be used for. If vehicles aren't being restored/used/whatever as agreed in the contract and are clearly just dumped there in the hope that some day something might happen, then the railways should review at each contract break point and if necessary have the vehicle removed from site. If railways actually did that, then it might focus minds a bit.


Bit severe stance to take. Take the example below, Crab 42859 just ran out of luck, boiler was sold for scrap to pay for protracted storage.


Once its gone, its gone for ever!! Better an eye-sore on a Heritage Railway site than in a Chinese Electric Arc Furnace!!

You sound like the BR management circa 1962 !!
 
Last edited:

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,308
Bit severe stance to take. Take the example below, Crab 42859 just ran out of luck, boiler was sold for scrap to pay for protracted storage.
How much luck does it need?! 35+ years after it left Barry and so far all that's happened is the boiler has been sold for scrap! That's going backwards, not making progress. This is a prime example of the sort of woolly thinking that characterises railway preservation.

Once its gone, its gone for ever!! Better an eye-sore on a Heritage Railway site than in a Chinese Electric Arc Furnace!!
Agree with the first part, but would add that you can't save everything, or even an example of everything.
 

Ashley Hill

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2019
Messages
3,271
Location
The West Country
It's up to the railways themselves to sort it out. Putting proper contractual agreements in place for vehicles to be on site would be a start, with contracts stating what the vehicles are to be used for. If vehicles aren't being restored/used/whatever as agreed in the contract and are clearly just dumped there in the hope that some day something might happen, then the railways should review at each contract break point and if necessary have the vehicle removed from site. If railways actually did that, then it might focus minds a bit.
I would generally agree with this. As you say it may force the owners hand to at least keep an item presentable.
Also railways often get things bequeathed to them that were based on the line and then get lumbered with its costs.
 

D6968

Member
Joined
30 Sep 2021
Messages
433
How much luck does it need?! 35+ years after it left Barry and so far all that's happened is the boiler has been sold for scrap! That's going backwards, not making progress. This is a prime example of the sort of woolly thinking that characterises railway preservation.


Agree with the first part, but would add that you can't save everything, or even an example of everything.
But look at something like D7029 or D7018, they’ve worked in Pres, but the groups that own them have had other things that have come along in the meantime, would you say that they should be cut up given how long it’s taken to overhaul (continue to overhaul them)
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,308
But look at something like D7029 or D7018, they’ve worked in Pres, but the groups that own them have had other things that have come along in the meantime, would you say that they should be cut up given how long it’s taken to overhaul (continue to overhaul them)
Given that D7018 had a test run before Christmas, obviously not!

But - and this is the point - both have had credible restoration plans (and from groups with a proven record) and there has been demonstrable progress. As I suspect you well know, my point is about the stuff littering sites that has nothing done to it, no progress whatsoever, no purpose and no credible plan. The two Hymeks clearly don't (and never did) fit into that category.
 

heathrowrail

Member
Joined
18 Nov 2022
Messages
222
Location
Newbury
I remember seeing Dumbleton Hall at Buckfastleigh back in 2016 and the paint was definitely fading away on the old loco - glad it will be restored to a good home, albeit overseas.
I agree, Dumbleton Hall is one of my favourite locomotives and if I had the money I would have happily bought her & restored her. The problem was she was bought for the wrong line which couldn't run her because of the weight limit on Nursey Pool Bridge. Consequently, she was never a priority if she had stayed with the PDSR no doubt she would still be in action.
 

Flying Phil

Established Member
Joined
18 Apr 2016
Messages
1,933
What is the legal position though when the owner refuses to sign a contract or agreement, can the railway just sell or scrap the item? Or if the ownership is disputed, unclear or not known?
 

Trainlog

Member
Joined
16 Aug 2022
Messages
257
Location
Maidstone
I agree, Dumbleton Hall is one of my favourite locomotives and if I had the money I would have happily bought her & restored her. The problem was she was bought for the wrong line which couldn't run her because of the weight limit on Nursey Pool Bridge. Consequently, she was never a priority if she had stayed with the PDSR no doubt she would still be in action.
She was South Devon railway, but yeah you are right they wouldn't have done anything with her if she was still there and would have been sold off to another line - to be steamed there who knows? but luckily that line has realized its best with Tank or light tender locos (including my favourite there 3205) and would definitely recommend a visit if you are in that area.

Also on the point of mismanaged rolling stock on the line side. Locos i can understand, but sometimes the decaying rolling stock does add to the experience when the train goes by, but i can understand the sentiment for finding a way to get everything into its best condition through new means.
 

Harvester

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2020
Messages
1,296
Location
Notts
What is the legal position though when the owner refuses to sign a contract or agreement, can the railway just sell or scrap the item? Or if the ownership is disputed, unclear or not known?
IIRC the Shackerstone Railway Society acquired ownership of 45015 over issues of unpaid rent, which had resulted in legal action. Unfortunately (for the Society) the scrap value of the wreck never covered disposal costs.
 

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
6,339
At the risk of taking us further off topic, I've thought for a while that part of the problem is too much stock and not enough railway. Given the age profile of so much preserved stock I think more "stuffed and mounted" museums are exactly what is required now. So much deterioration is going on that overhauls have added work due to outdoor storage, which just further exacerbates the whole problem.

More locations like the One to One Collection are going to become a really key way of protecting stock from deterioration.
 

xotGD

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
6,089
At the risk of taking us further off topic, I've thought for a while that part of the problem is too much stock and not enough railway. Given the age profile of so much preserved stock I think more "stuffed and mounted" museums are exactly what is required now. So much deterioration is going on that overhauls have added work due to outdoor storage, which just further exacerbates the whole problem.

More locations like the One to One Collection are going to become a really key way of protecting stock from deterioration.
I agree that locos awaiting overhaul should ideally be exhibited indoors so that people can see them up close and they don't turn to a pile of rust. The KWVR is a great example of where this is the case.
 

GalaxyDog

Member
Joined
7 Jul 2022
Messages
204
Location
Outer Space
I would add the Severn Valley and their Engine House at Highley as another excellent example. It's nice to see WD600 Gordon, but knowing it will never steam again.
 

eldomtom2

On Moderation
Joined
6 Oct 2018
Messages
1,546
Part of the problem, as I see it, is that it doesn't seem likely that the 47xx group will be turning out a working loco any time soon.
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,260
Location
Torbay
I agree, Dumbleton Hall is one of my favourite locomotives and if I had the money I would have happily bought her & restored her. The problem was she was bought for the wrong line which couldn't run her because of the weight limit on Nursey Pool Bridge. Consequently, she was never a priority if she had stayed with the PDSR no doubt she would still be in action.
Dumbleton Hall was specifically acquired for and worked on the PDSR originally for a time, but it ended up stuck at Buckfastleigh after the management of the two railways split and it needed another overhaul. I don't know whether the PDSR had enough alternative traction by then and simply didn't need the loco anymore or whether there was some animosity or commercial agro between the companies and groups concerned that precluded any agreement being made. Larger locos can work on the SDR now, as the bridge has been rebuilt, but a Hall would not be economic for regular services.
 

eldomtom2

On Moderation
Joined
6 Oct 2018
Messages
1,546
I remember seeing Dumbleton Hall at Buckfastleigh back in 2016 and the paint was definitely fading away on the old loco - glad it will be restored to a good home, albeit overseas.
Well, the worry with Dumbleton Hall is what will happen when Warner Bros decide running the Harry Potter Studio Tour Japan is no longer profitable?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top