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'Passing the Buck' (between TOCs)

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PermitToTravel

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I don't think the concept of journeys is very helpful here in terms of how it should be considered (I've no doubt that it helps with how it is considered from a contractual or contract law standpoint) - what ought to be evaluated is how the effect on the customer's trip as a whole can be minimised.
 
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Jonfun

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From a customer service point of view, though, it sounds as though the most appropriate course of action has been taken. I don't think there's any way of making the delay impact any less on the customer's journey. They've been given the option to take a later train, whether it was strictly to the rules or not, or had the option of abandoning their journey which they chose.
 

Starmill

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Let's not be to hasty here Jonfun. Virgin Trains East Coast spectacularly failed to step up to the mark of doing anything whatsoever to help me out, and it was essentially because of that that I didn't get to Penzance. I've said before, what needed was written evidence that I would be allowed to take a train to Leeds sometime around 0900 the next day. That wasn't going to happen it was clear to me while I was there the forst time, and time was too short to get back over to KGX with my sleeper reservation and then back to PAD to get the train to Penzance.

I've said many times that I don't want to talk about my case in specifics, but have you seen the price of an Anytime Single from London to Leeds? I was in no position to risk having to pay that, even for refund a matter of days later. Without a note, there is not a shred of doubt in my mind that some guards would have charged me that - and they would probably have thought they were doing their job very properly.
 

yorkie

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Given FGW were prepared for you to take the Sleeper, I'd argue that EC would be compelled to accept you on a reasonable service the next morning.

Yes, I can understand your concerns that a certain Guard who is making a name for himself for the wrong reasons at Leeds might try to charge you (though that may be a good thing in the long run as he needs to be given some appropriate advice by management) but the vast majority would not.

However, until we have satisfactory evidence EC have dealt with the one or two troublemakers among what their - otherwise mostly excellent - Guards, I can understand why people will be apprehensive.
 

Jonfun

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Who's being hasty? VTEC have rightly told you to speak to FGW about your train home, and FGW were willing to make suitable arrangements to accommodate you on the next train or put you in overnight accommodation to enable you to complete your journey the next day.

I don't understand why you want or need written permission from VTEC to complete your journey. If a renegade revenue inspector wants to try causing an issue then that's their issue and it won't get far at all. If the complaint you're making is that you weren't told of your rights to take a later train on an advance ticket if disrupted then yes - this is worthy of a complaint. But anything else, I think they've tried to accommodate you as best they can to be honest.
 

Starmill

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Given FGW were prepared for you to take the Sleeper, I'd argue that EC would be compelled to accept you on a reasonable service the next morning.

Of course, I am with you now. Was being a bit slow here. Not sure why...

Yes, I can understand your concerns that a certain Guard who is making a name for himself for the wrong reasons at Leeds might try to charge you (though that may be a good thing in the long run as he needs to be given some appropriate advice by management) but the vast majority would not.

However, until we have satisfactory evidence EC have dealt with the one or two troublemakers among what their - otherwise mostly excellent - Guards, I can understand why people will be apprehensive.

Essentially nail on the head. That and thinking I might not sleep a wink in a seat. There was a risk there due to a lack of formal arrangement - which I really didn't think would have been too much to ask - and I judged it not a risk worth taking.
 

Starmill

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If the complaint you're making is that you weren't told of your rights to take a later train on an advance ticket if disrupted then yes - this is worthy of a complaint. But anything else, I think they've tried to accommodate you as best they can to be honest.

They didn't seem to agree, and their resolution to the case has admitted that they must do better in future.
 

Iskra

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I recently made a journey from Leeds to Penzance. I missed my train to Penzance, the 1006 from Paddington, because the 0701 from York to Kings Cross was late by around 40 minutes. I had to take an alternative train to Penzance, but it was 2 hours later. The problem was this meant it was impossible to complete my further journeys later on in the day. The key problem with this was the fact that these routes are two different operators. Worse, rather than there being one 'big' operator and one 'local' operator, Virgin Trains East Coast and First Great Western each consider themselves the 'main' operator. Anyway after a brief and unenlightening discussion on twitter I queued up at the Kings Cross ticket office.

I was told I needn't have, there was nothing they could do and to go and sort it all out with First Great Western, as I'd be travelling on their later service. I pointed out I'd need to come back to them and might need a different train from Kings Cross, but I was told just to speak to the manager there when I got back. It was clear they were not going to help me at all and just kept saying I was now 'First Great Western's passenger' (read: problem). I asked to speak to said manager now, and I was able to. He simply said the same thing but using better words and without the tone of trying to get rid of me so they could serve the next person in the queue. I left on his note "I appreciate your concerns, but as I cannot speak for First Great Western you will just have to go to Paddington and sort it out with them."

Can anyone guess what happened at Paddington? That's right, they were helpful, but also kept saying that they couldn't let me travel on an alternative Virgin Trains East Coast service, and that they weren't in a position to offer me any further assistance with my journey because their train had not been late. I was 'a Virgin Trains East Coast passenger' to them. In a way that was true, VTEC had stuffed my journey and then abandoned me, can't expect FGW to go too far out of their way to sort it out. In the end, they made me an offer but I couldn't accept it, so I abandoned my journey and a big refund request is now on it's way to Stagecoach. It's actually a good case of why people cannot really be said to be one company's passenger or another in a lot of situations.

What I'd like to discuss here is why 'passing the buck' like this has been allowed. From small cases where one might ask for help from the wrong member of staff and they simply say I don't know - that service is nothing to do with me or a tweet gets sent to the wrong company and they refer it to a second company who are also the wrong company etc etc, right up to large and serious cases like mine where one TOC says no you need to go to them to sort it out, and you do, and then they say no you need to go back to the other people and they will sort it out! *repeatedly bashes head against wall* It causes defensiveness and creates conflict too, in addition to being inefficient and causing delay and dissatisfaction to passengers. Have you ever had the buck passed? Or have you had someone very helpful who got around it for you? Of course this is scarcely the fault of the front-line staff- they are told what they can do and if they are told they mustn't authorise travel on any but their own TOC's services (which IMHO they should not - any 'authorised person' should be able to authorise travel on any train, in the passenger's interest, otherwise what is the point!).

I had the exact same problem in April. But an entirely different outcome.

I was travelling Leeds-Penzance, the East Coast train was 45 late meaning I missed my connection. I asked the guard on the EC where I stood if I missed my connection. He then endorsed my ticket for travel onward to Penzance. I then took the ticket to FGW at Paddington who stamped my ticket for onward travel on the 1406. I then asked if I could go on the 13xx to Plymouth to use the Pullman dining, which they were very happy for me to do, and off I went. I then applied for delay repay and got some RTV's.

Excellent service all round. Strange how the service can fluctuate so much within a week.
 

DarloRich

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Instead of whining on the internet why not just write directly to the customer service directors of both VTEC and FGW and explain to them, in polite, non dramatic & professional terms why you think the customer service provision fell below the level expected?

You will get a much better result
 

yorkie

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I had the exact same problem in April. But an entirely different outcome.

I was travelling Leeds-Penzance, the East Coast train was 45 late meaning I missed my connection. I asked the guard on the EC where I stood if I missed my connection. He then endorsed my ticket for travel onward to Penzance.
No need to get the ticket endorsed, though if practicable to do so without causing any further delay it's good for peace of mind.
I then took the ticket to FGW at Paddington who stamped my ticket for onward travel on the 1406. I then asked if I could go on the 13xx to Plymouth to use the Pullman dining, which they were very happy for me to do, and off I went. I then applied for delay repay and got some RTV's.
There's no need to get the ticket endorsed once, let alone twice :lol: However I am glad to hear you got Delay Repay without quibble, though I am unsure if you mean "in the form of Rail Travel Vouchers (RTVs)" or if you mean you got additional RTVs over and above your entitlement?
Excellent service all round..
Glad to hear it :)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Instead of whining on the internet why not just write directly to the customer service directors of both VTEC and FGW and explain to them, in polite, non dramatic & professional terms why you think the customer service provision fell below the level expected?

You will get a much better result
This doesn't make sense. Who are you addressing? I think maybe you've misread?
 

LowLevel

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Having your ticket endorsed can save a lot of pain particularly regarding alternative routing - the most extreme example I've come across involved me endorsing some split tickets from the Yorkshire area to travel to a station on the Heart of Wales line via Swansea instead of Knighton following an en route diversion due to a broken down train causing a 4 hourly connection to be blown out. It saved a fairly significant amount of time but involved a truly massive detour via the Marches and South Wales that may have been somewhat harder to achieve without the endorsement.
 

DarloRich

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This doesn't make sense. Who are you addressing? I think maybe you've misread?

A general point based on the initial statement. I have found the best way to get results is to write to the relevant director and complain. I find the results are better than via the complaints team.

Personally, i wouldn't have allowed myself to be fobbed off and would have insisted that matters were sorted out there and then.
 

Solent&Wessex

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A close family member had a very similar scenario last week travelling via London.

Travelling from Yorkshire to Wiltshire on an Advance ticket, his VTEC service was delayed by around 45 minutes. He did not get the Advance ticket endorsed on the train as a) he didn't think he would have a problem later, and b) he said no one checked the ticket all the way anyway (before or after the delay) so he didn't see anyone to ask.

When he got to Waterloo he had missed his booked connection.

The barrier staff told him his ticket was now invalid as it was only valid on the booked train. He explained the delay on the VTEC service, and the SWT staff said that was a different company and that he would need to purchase a new ticket and then claim the cost back from VTEC. He refused to do so. They then said they would possibly allow him to travel later if his ticket was endorsed by VTEC staff, but that he would have to go back to KGX to get them to do that as it was a different company and nothing to do with them.

He refused to do that. He then sought a more senior member of staff who, apparently, extremely reluctantly, stamped his ticket whilst muttering that they shouldn't be doing this, it wasn't there problem and he should have got it sorted at KGX before coming over to WAT.

Unhelpfully I only found out about this today, and have told him he could claim back 50% of his ticket cost from VTEC via Delay Repay, but he was unaware he could do that and has already binned his ticket.
 

bb21

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The barrier staff told him his ticket was now invalid as it was only valid on the booked train. He explained the delay on the VTEC service, and the SWT staff said that was a different company and that he would need to purchase a new ticket and then claim the cost back from VTEC. He refused to do so. They then said they would possibly allow him to travel later if his ticket was endorsed by VTEC staff, but that he would have to go back to KGX to get them to do that as it was a different company and nothing to do with them.

He refused to do that. He then sought a more senior member of staff who, apparently, extremely reluctantly, stamped his ticket whilst muttering that they shouldn't be doing this, it wasn't there problem and he should have got it sorted at KGX before coming over to WAT.

That was shocking. I hope he got their names and put in a complaint. I wonder how many other people were fobbed off or forced to buy a new ticket on their "advice".

Unhelpfully I only found out about this today, and have told him he could claim back 50% of his ticket cost from VTEC via Delay Repay, but he was unaware he could do that and has already binned his ticket.

It is surprising how many people were still unaware of their delay entitlements.

I saw two used Advance tickets the other day on an East Coast service, one Standard Class for about £75, the other First Class for about £90. The Standard one was for a train delayed 45 minutes for the journey stated, and the First one 75 minutes. OK there is a chance the owners had taken a photo of the tickets on the phone and submitted their claims that way, but chances are they did not bother because they were simply not aware that they were eligible to claim.
 

Iskra

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No need to get the ticket endorsed, though if practicable to do so without causing any further delay it's good for peace of mind.

There's no need to get the ticket endorsed once, let alone twice :lol: However I am glad to hear you got Delay Repay without quibble, though I am unsure if you mean "in the form of Rail Travel Vouchers (RTVs)" or if you mean you got additional RTVs over and above your entitlement?

Glad to hear it :)

I got it endorsed originally because I couldn't risk being charged for Leeds-Penzance in 1st and/or the loss of my advance tickets later in the evening for my sleeper back. It's also rreally not worth the problems if you encounter a jobsworth, and there are a lot of them around on the railway unfortunately.

I got it endorsed the second time because the 1st class lounge host told me to...

Just delay repay for my delay nothing above. However, I'm not sure if I was actually entitled to more. I was 45mins late into Kings Cross because of VTEC. Yet, I was 2hrs late into Penzance even though I caught the fastest combination of trains I could, so wasn't sure if I should have claimed a delay over 60 mins.
 

yorkie

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I got it endorsed originally because I couldn't risk being charged for Leeds-Penzance in 1st and/or the loss of my advance tickets later in the evening for my sleeper back. It's also rreally not worth the problems if you encounter a jobsworth, and there are a lot of them around on the railway unfortunately.
If it doesn't delay you, then fair enough, but I wouldn't delay my journey in order to fulfill in a non-existent requirement.

And that's not being a "jobsworth", as the definition of a jobsworth is someone who disregards common sense to apply the rules 'to the letter'. Anyone who disregards the rules is, therefore, not a jobsworth.

The rules are clear: you may take the next available trains(s).
I got it endorsed the second time because the 1st class lounge host told me to...

Just delay repay for my delay nothing above. However, I'm not sure if I was actually entitled to more. I was 45mins late into Kings Cross because of VTEC. Yet, I was 2hrs late into Penzance even though I caught the fastest combination of trains I could, so wasn't sure if I should have claimed a delay over 60 mins.
Your journey was Leeds to Penzance. Clearly your journey was delayed by 2 hours, so you definitely did meet the threshold for a 60+ minute delay!
 

Iskra

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If it doesn't delay you, then fair enough, but I wouldn't delay my journey in order to fulfill in a non-existent requirement.

And that's not being a "jobsworth", as the definition of a jobsworth is someone who disregards common sense to apply the rules 'to the letter'. Anyone who disregards the rules is, therefore, not a jobsworth.

The rules are clear: you may take the next available trains(s).

Your journey was Leeds to Penzance. Clearly your journey was delayed by 2 hours, so you definitely did meet the threshold for a 60+ minute delay!

Damn. I only claimed for the 30mins plus delay into Kings Cross. 2nd time I've done that as well now :cry:
 
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