Pay gap between drivers and guards too big?

[red2005]

I'm still "new" to the railway and have only banked 10+ years...

I used to work in retail and worked up from the bottom (stock room, Christmas, Zero hour contract) to management. Sadly I haven't escaped dealing with the public :/

Considering my age I have had a few jobs since leaving school. I can categorically say that the railway is very well paid. Not just Driver. ALL grades do seem to be well paid. Chuck in free travel and it is golden days for employees.

I actually know people who work hard for a living. None work on the railway

i think you are spot on there mate! the problem with the industry is the moaners amongst us have been in the job since the year dot and have never worked in the "real world" where the pay is rubbish and you can't tell them to stick it if they ask you to work a minute longer than their booked day!

they should try hod carrying on a building site for 12 hours at £6 an hour in the peeing down rain and they will then realise none of us have it that bad!

 

[notadriver]

Fully agree there chaps. With permission from my manager I mix train driving and pcv driving (including rail replacement) and I believe I'm one of the very few train drivers to do this. The hourly rate of £8-£9 an hour is standard for the area I work in, long hours are expected (15 hour days not all driving of course) and having to do litter collecting and cleaning at the end. To top it all off the boss has the attitude of 'if you don't like it there's the door' attitude. By comparison the railway is paradise.

 

[LowLevel]

I think I'm paid fairly as a guard (though it's sometimes frustrating to see folk in the same grade who worked for the same company up until a few years ago due to franchise splits getting better pay awards than you when you both do the same job on non harmonised terms!).

The one thing that does annoy me slightly, and it isn't driver's fault in the slightest, it's the company's, is when you see the drivers getting a very generous pay award agreed first then everyone else being told 'nowt left for you folks'. At our place the driver's award was agreed months ages ago. Ours rumbles along with talks abandoned as apparently there's nothing else in the kitty. Shed drivers last year who are on only 5 grand or so more than us got over a grand increase - we got a lot less after much more hassle.

We feel, rightfully in our opinion, that we should get the same percentage as our colleagues and feel short changed if we don't especially as our award is worth significantly less at the same percentage anyway.

 

[red2005]

I think I'm paid fairly as a guard (though it's sometimes frustrating to see folk in the same grade who worked for the same company up until a few years ago due to franchise splits getting better pay awards than you when you both do the same job on non harmonised terms!).

The one thing that does annoy me slightly, and it isn't driver's fault in the slightest, it's the company's, is when you see the drivers getting a very generous pay award agreed first then everyone else being told 'nowt left for you folks'. At our place the driver's award was agreed months ages ago. Ours rumbles along with talks abandoned as apparently there's nothing else in the kitty. Shed drivers last year who are on only 5 grand or so more than us got over a grand increase - we got a lot less after much more hassle.

We feel, rightfully in our opinion, that we should get the same percentage as our colleagues and feel short changed if we don't especially as our award is worth significantly less at the same percentage anyway.

And this is where I go back to the unions point! What do you think would happen if the roles were reversed and it was ASLEF being told there was "nothing left in the kitty" ?............I've got a fair idea......and I don't think it'd just be a case of accepting it.

I am in no way condoning holding companies to ransom btw just an observation

 

[Haydn1971]

Controversially perhaps, I'd say that more of a concern is that both driver and guards jobs are highly at risk of being removed from future generations of trains - we've seen driver only operation, we've also seen driverless light rail - with the technologies being pimped around by various companies, it's a logical next step to introduce features appearing on cars today with the next generation of trains, then logically removing the human factors in the generation after that. You won't need to worry about the pay gap then - probably wise to keep your eye on the problems that will take your job completely rather than divide and argue about minor pay discrepancies.

 

[ComUtoR]

We feel, rightfully in our opinion, that we should get the same percentage as our colleagues and feel short changed if we don't especially as our award is worth significantly less at the same percentage anyway.

This is a VERY stupid ideology. Especially as, in your own words, you get significantly less.

I've never liked % rises used as a yardstick and if your fighting for the same as everyone else then you are doing yourself a disservice. Taking that approach you are widening the gap. That isn't fair and I would never accept it and I don't understand why anyone would fight to get "significantly less"

If you believe you are worth a grand increase then you should get it. Using others as a basis for comparison allows the company to set your worth by the same comparison. Is a Guard worth more than a Shed Driver ? Are Guards worth more than Platform staff or Gateline ?

You absolutely have to view your pay awards in a holistic way. What conditions are you giving up ? How much are you getting ? Has is tax/Ni a concern ? What benefits are being offered ? There is soooooo much more to a pay award than money.

As to "nothing left in the kitty" :roll:

 

[A-driver]

Controversially perhaps, I'd say that more of a concern is that both driver and guards jobs are highly at risk of being removed from future generations of trains - we've seen driver only operation, we've also seen driverless light rail - with the technologies being pimped around by various companies, it's a logical next step to introduce features appearing on cars today with the next generation of trains, then logically removing the human factors in the generation after that. You won't need to worry about the pay gap then - probably wise to keep your eye on the problems that will take your job completely rather than divide and argue about minor pay discrepancies.

We could get huge payrises over many, many more years yet before driverless and unattended technology becomes in any way financially beneficial. It's not something anyone should worry about when working out pay deals.

 

[ComUtoR]

It's not something anyone should worry about when working out pay deals.

Not sure I agree with you here. Terms and conditions are already paving the way for new technology. From a pure pay perspective. ASLEF are already selling out terms and any potential future payments for the introduction of new technology.

If you look at the recent SE pay award you will see that a couple of things have already been agreed before implementation. Whilst I'm not surprised and I do understand there needs to be early agreement so that any various tech etc can be implemented. I don't believe this should form part of the pay award and that if it does come in via a pay/conditions negotiation then there should be a financial benefit. However; I do worry about it because it is currently happening in negotiation directly affecting me.

 

[A-driver]

Not sure I agree with you here. Terms and conditions are already paving the way for new technology. From a pure pay perspective. ASLEF are already selling out terms and any potential future payments for the introduction of new technology.



If you look at the recent SE pay award you will see that a couple of things have already been agreed before implementation. Whilst I'm not surprised and I do understand there needs to be early agreement so that any various tech etc can be implemented. I don't believe this should form part of the pay award and that if it does come in via a pay/conditions negotiation then there should be a financial benefit. However; I do worry about it because it is currently happening in negotiation directly affecting me.

I was more responding to the suggestion that pay awards will price drivers off the market and make technology the cheaper option. My point was that we have a long way to go financially before we are more expensive than implementing driverless trains.

Inflation busting pay rises for drivers are rather a myth. Generally we get pay awards rough in line with inflation which in real terms isn't a pay rise but ensuring that pay stays were it is. When you start getting higher pay rises you are generally getting it in exchange for conditions or productivity so whilst you get more money the employer also saves money indirectly.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Should nurses get similar pay to doctors?

Should a receptionist get the same as a dentist?

Very different responsibilities for a driver than a guard and given the magnitude of the continuous safety critical work they carry out then I believe the pay gap is more than justified

I await the abuse....

no abuse

just laughter at your incredible ignorance especially with regard to the ROle of the Registered Nurse ( and other none Medical Health Professionals )

 

[ComUtoR]

I was more responding to the suggestion that pay awards will price drivers off the market and make technology the cheaper option. My point was that we have a long way to go financially before we are more expensive than implementing driverless trains.

I see it more as a drive towards a more modern railway but cheers for the clarification and I will certainly concede the point that money is playing greater part than I wish to admit. Maybe it is because I see that the union is already paving the way in the conditions there is less of a financial burden with implementation.

I know an ex tube driver who has seen a shift towards ATO and how it has affected Drivers terms and remuneration. Infamously tube Drivers get got... a high salary... (I won't link that song !) but now ATO is pushing wages down. With ATO hitting the core soon™ I am certainly more paranoid worried now than I have ever been.

 

[notadriver]

I thought all Tube Operators got the same pay and did the same 35 hour week regardless of whether their line is ATO or not.

 

[387star]

Controversially perhaps, I'd say that more of a concern is that both driver and guards jobs are highly at risk of being removed from future generations of trains - we've seen driver only operation, we've also seen driverless light rail - with the technologies being pimped around by various companies, it's a logical next step to introduce features appearing on cars today with the next generation of trains, then logically removing the human factors in the generation after that. You won't need to worry about the pay gap then - probably wise to keep your eye on the problems that will take your job completely rather than divide and argue about minor pay discrepancies.

Cheers for that

 

[devinier]

Controversially perhaps, I'd say that more of a concern is that both driver and guards jobs are highly at risk of being removed from future generations of trains - we've seen driver only operation, we've also seen driverless light rail - with the technologies being pimped around by various companies, it's a logical next step to introduce features appearing on cars today with the next generation of trains, then logically removing the human factors in the generation after that. You won't need to worry about the pay gap then - probably wise to keep your eye on the problems that will take your job completely rather than divide and argue about minor pay discrepancies.

When I see a 156 fitted with driverless technology then I'll start looking over my shoulder.

 

[Haydn1971]

I was more responding to the suggestion that pay awards will price drivers off the market and make technology the cheaper option.

Slow down there ! Not the point I'm making what I'm saying is don't let pay differences start splitting you up, as you have bigger joint problems ahead. Your strength is in numbers.