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Pay to train

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rich200tdi

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Yeah I mean that's 9 months living on a Navy base, and another 14-18 weeks on another navy base, and they need paying, on top of a huge number of different trainers etc, training centre, all of the courses, I can see how that all adds up.

By comparison, as you say 75k for 10 months training to drive seems a little far fetched!
 
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Deltech

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But Central Trains only existed after Regional Railways disappeared. Both were then part of privatisation :s

Unless you mean Northern Spirit of course.

No. Although Regional Railways Central and Regional Railways North East were VESTED at around the same time, RRC were privatised BEFORE RRNE (but we are getting off topic).
 

CatfordCat

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I don't know enough about the technicalities of driving trains to comment on the specifics of that.

However, there are quite a few instances that have been fairly well publicised (although obviously not well enough, as they are still at it) of organisations offering 'training' to become a plumber / electrician for quite a high fee, with the selling point of inflated high wages on offer if and when you get a job. (the adverts usually look as if they are offering those wages, while not doing so quite blatantly enough to be false advertising.)

What you do get if you pay them is one small, theoretical, part of the proper qualification to be a plumber / electrician / whatever, which, on its own, isn't a lot of use.

Buyer beware...
 

W230

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However, there are quite a few instances that have been fairly well publicised (although obviously not well enough, as they are still at it) of organisations offering 'training' to become a plumber / electrician for quite a high fee, with the selling point of inflated high wages on offer if and when you get a job. (the adverts usually look as if they are offering those wages, while not doing so quite blatantly enough to be false advertising.)
A very good friend did one of these courses to become a gas installer. The company didn't organise the work experience (like they said they would) and I think they didn't really have any incentive to either - by this point all the fees had been paid. When my friend eventually found a plumber to take them on for some experience the plumber said that the previous people the 'training organiser' had sent were so ill prepared that he'd decided not to bother with them as it was costing him time and money to in effect do the training and that he was only supposed to find work experience. He said that he'd had trainees working with him breakdown in tears before as they'd spent their life savings with the promise of a lucrative salary and basically ended up with no money coming in and the reality of a job at the end of it all was just non existent.

Luckily my mate got on the British Gas apprenticeship through some other work they were doing. Ironically they had to do all the same training they had already forked out to do with the 'training provider' but this time it was done properly.

What you do get if you pay them is one small, theoretical, part of the proper qualification to be a plumber / electrician / whatever, which, on its own, isn't a lot of use.

Buyer beware...
Exactly! They were a qualified gas installer after the course. Didn't have a clue how to do anything (by own admission) but were technically qualified.

Furthermore, the info that Deltech posts seems to regard drivers who are already qualified going and working for other firms on a 'zero hours' basis. They obviously must have already signed the route/traction or only took a little time getting up to speed. This is not the same thing as someone coming off the street.
 

baldieman

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The only way they could train someone from scratch to being fully qualified is by having an arrangement with a TOC. I can't see any of the mainstream operators being interested so they may have an arrangement with a charter company. Even so, I can't see any of the mainstream TOCs being interested in someone trained this way and the overall fee will be astronomical! Given the top end of driver salaries being around £60k with experience and add ons like an instructor qualification, the financial outlay far outweighs the conceivable rewards IF you found employment.

In the aviation industry airline salaries can reach £200k by the end of your career if lucky so a similar outlay in training expenses for the individual is slightly more more of an acceptable risk for many entering the industry.
 

Deltech

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The only way they could train someone from scratch to being fully qualified is by having an arrangement with a TOC. I can't see any of the mainstream operators being interested so they may have an arrangement with a charter company. Even so, I can't see any of the mainstream TOCs being interested in someone trained this way.....

Let's not overlook the fact that at least one "mainstream" TOC (FGW) have previously used a "private" company (CCL of Crewe) to run their Driver training courses. So there is already a precedent for a TOC/non-TOC relationship in delivering Driver training.

For the avoidance of doubt let me state that I believe the best option is for a would be Train Driver to be assessed, recruited, and trained, directly by and at the expense of a TOC/FOC. My posts in this thread serve only to answer the OP "pay to train" and the answer is YES.

Would I have chosen such a route if it were available when I became a Train Driver over 20 years ago? Well no; as I didn't have a rich Daddy or my own funds to pay for such a route. If I had, I would have become a Pilot, not a Train Driver.......
 

SPADTrap

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Let's not overlook the fact that at least one "mainstream" TOC (FGW) have previously used a "private" company (CCL of Crewe) to run their Driver training courses. So there is already a precedent for a TOC/non-TOC relationship in delivering Driver training.

For the avoidance of doubt let me state that I believe the best option is for a would be Train Driver to be assessed, recruited, and trained, directly by and at the expense of a TOC/FOC. My posts in this thread serve only to answer the OP "pay to train" and the answer is YES.

Would I have chosen such a route if it were available when I became a Train Driver over 20 years ago? Well no; as I didn't have a rich Daddy or my own funds to pay for such a route. If I had, I would have become a Pilot, not a Train Driver.......

No the answer isn't YES. It's still at this moment in time NO.
 

SPADTrap

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I despair..............


Hey Djarfish..... go speak to ROG and they will tell ye all ye want to know.....

They haven't got anything at up at this point in time is what they said to me when I "enquired" have you spoken to them??
 

A-driver

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I despair..............


Hey Djarfish..... go speak to ROG and they will tell ye all ye want to know.....

Would you seriously give that company any if your money to train as a driver? If so why as do you honestly think you will be a bigger winner out of it than them?
 

SPADTrap

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Would you seriously give that company any if your money to train as a driver? If so why as do you honestly think you will be a bigger winner out of it than them?

No chance. I just don't understand why someone would when TOCs will give you everything you want and all you have to do is turn up and have the right skills. Do that and next thing you know you're a trainee driver!
 

baldieman

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No chance. I just don't understand why someone would when TOCs will give you everything you want and all you have to do is turn up and have the right skills. Do that and next thing you know you're a trainee driver!

But that situation has existed for years in aviation SPADTrap, not sure why it would surprise you of all people? Lol
 

W230

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Would you seriously give that company any if your money to train as a driver? If so why as do you honestly think you will be a bigger winner out of it than them?
I've come to the conclusion that Deltech must work for them. :lol:

No other driver on here (or at the TOC I work at) think this is a good investment for those seeking employment in the driving grade, if it were even possible. Which it isn't.
 

TDK

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I must say I do find these vast figures bandied around for the cost of driver training a bit baffling. Fag packet calculations lead me to something like 25 grand, apart from the trainee's salary which is obviously not a factor if you're paying for yourself.

Assuming five trainees on a course for a year:
  • 1/5 of a trainer's salary plus HR costs say 12k
  • Random contribution to training school costs 10k (which is a whole lot of simulator running costs, heating, photocopying and all that) (don't forget that most things in a training school like the fittings and the simulators last for YEARS so can be spread over that time as a cost)
  • Management time say 2k (that's a fortnight of exclusive time with a manager which is way over the top)
  • Extra bit of salary for your DI 2k
  • Can't think of much else.
Driver instructors are productive anyway and do their own diagrammed work while training, so to include their costs is pure double counting. People always used to say 75 grand when I qualified but I just can't see it and never could. Frankly it doesn't cost that much - not that a 20-odd grand free piece of training plus a load of salary is to be sniffed at and I'm very grateful that's the way I had it.

OK I will break it down for you: These are approximate figures for an intake of 5 drivers.

1. Recruitment including advertising, running of the IT requirements, hiring a venue, salary for the interviewers, letters, HR time £25k

2. Medicals: £3k

3. Induction week including hotel accommodation £4k

4. PTS course (if sourced outside) £5k

5. Uniform £750

6. Equipment £500

7. 1 years salary including pension and NI contributions match £175k

8. Rules training at 6 weeks including the trainers salary: £7.5k

9. Traction training at 3 weeks including trainers salary: £4k

10. 5 x DI's salary (they need to cover core routes so will follow a vacant line in the feeder link) £145k

11. Drivers pay to cover vacant DI from their link £130k

12. Managerial cost including 2 years PQ. £50k
so in total we have for a group of 5 trainees a total cost of about £550k and this is for a TOC that pays it's drivers £45k a year. Divide this by 5 and:-

Each driver up until passing out will cost a company:- £110k

Hope tis helps.

And a note that if a depot has a feeder/starter link the DI WILL be released to cover the core routes of the depot and to do this WILL follow the line of vacant work in the feeder link meaning their line in their link must be covered and this is usually on a RD basis.
 

Deltech

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No chance. I just don't understand why someone would when TOCs will give you everything you want and all you have to do is turn up and have the right skills. Do that and next thing you know you're a trainee driver!

SPADTrap; don't misunderstand me and be thinking I am opposed to everything ye say, as I agree with much of what ye've said. However, having the right skills does not necessarily mean being recruited in the first instance. I know of many trainee Drivers who got their job because they were somebody's Son, Brother, Son-in-Law, Brother-in-Law, friend, neighbour, etc. Nepotism is VERY prevalent on the Railway. I got my own start on British Rail because my Wife just happened to work with with an Inspector's Wife. So if anybody chooses to pay for their own Psychometric Assessment (and/or training) then I say good luck to them. But as I have stated before, ye wouldn't catch ME doing it that way.

My current Employer are more than happy to recruit trainee Drivers who have paid for their own assessment. Not because it saves the Company money; but because it shows initiative, enthusiasm, commitment, and determination.



I've come to the conclusion that Deltech must work for them. :lol:

Sorry to disappoint ye, but I work for one of the major FOCs.
 
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Flyboy

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In the aviation industry airline salaries can reach £200k by the end of your career if lucky so a similar outlay in training expenses for the individual is slightly more more of an acceptable risk for many entering the industry

Assuming that the above comment is in regard to pilots and not management positions then I have to strongly contradict that. Salaries for very senior long haul pilots at BA can reach the £150k mark, but for the other 95% of the pilot population, £100k is about the most you'll ever reach by the end of your career. £50k to £80k is the norm for a Captain with average seniority, i.e. time in post.
 

baldieman

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Assuming that the above comment is in regard to pilots and not management positions then I have to strongly contradict that. Salaries for very senior long haul pilots at BA can reach the £150k mark, but for the other 95% of the pilot population, £100k is about the most you'll ever reach by the end of your career. £50k to £80k is the norm for a Captain with average seniority, i.e. time in post.

You are quite right as i only said "can reach". My point being that the potential exists to reach the top end hence my assertion that an initial financial outlay to enter the industry is only slightly more understandable when comparing to those considering entering a rail career where it is extremely unlikely to earn beyond £65k.
 

PeteH

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Another considertion is that when undertaking a 'career change' later in life, mid 40's for example, it's extremely unlikely that one will ever end up as a captain, certainly not for a major airline.

Be lucky to get a FO job with a major too. I looked at it as an option: a year of training at ~£60+K for a frozen ATPL (and paying a mortgage/living expenses for my family on top), no guarantee of a job - particularly when there is a glut of ex-military pilots in the market place, no real prospect of earning much more than £50K by the time I reached 60, and frankly the airline shift work almost makes train driving look like a 9 to 5 job.

Couple of guys in my depot were on £75K p/a last FY. Had to work damn hard to achieve it mind.
 

Flyboy

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Good post PeteH, your assessment is pretty accurate, especially in regard to the duty hours involved.

baldieman - yes I noted your use of the words "can reach", but I just felt it necessary to add a little clarity. The pilot community have, in the past, been damaged by well-known airline bosses who have effectively mislead the media and the public into thinking certain things about pilots that simply aren't true, so I wanted to avoid that happening here with members believing that pilots normally earn £200k.

One airline boss once said in the media that his pilots were overpaid and underworked, to back up his comments he quoted their average annual salary (which certainly wasn't an average!) and said that they only worked 900 hours per year to earn that. The press and public did the maths in regard to an hourly rate and a negative opinion of the pilot workforce was formed.

The vital point that was omitted was that 900 hours per year is the maximum flying hours a pilot can do, NOT his/her duty hours, which can in fact be a maximum of 2000 hours. The maths on that figure work out completely different but the damage had been done.
 

A-driver

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One airline boss once said in the media that his pilots were overpaid and underworked, to back up his comments he quoted their average annual salary (which certainly wasn't an average!) and said that they only worked 900 hours per year to earn that. The press and public did the maths in regard to an hourly rate and a negative opinion of the pilot workforce was formed.

The vital point that was omitted was that 900 hours per year is the maximum flying hours a pilot can do, NOT his/her duty hours, which can in fact be a maximum of 2000 hours. The maths on that figure work out completely different but the damage had been done.


Sounds very familiar! The TOCs have been doing that for a while to, as have the press. Those nasty unions demanding high wages for no work and holding commuters to ransom for it...

My favourite was an article in the times when Mcnulty came out suggesting that drivers often 'demand' 12 hours pay for 2 hours work. Not a lie but written like that certainly far from accurate!
 

33056

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Sounds very familiar! The TOCs have been doing that for a while to, as have the press. Those nasty unions demanding high wages for no work and holding commuters to ransom for it...
Nothing new, a bit like all those signallers on 60K a few years back :roll: Also saw a headline in more than one paper not so long ago screaming that the police only did "a three day week", 3 x 12 = 36 hours? and I bet that was only a basic week as well.
 

SPADTrap

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SPADTrap; don't misunderstand me and be thinking I am opposed to everything ye say, as I agree with much of what ye've said. However, having the right skills does not necessarily mean being recruited in the first instance. I know of many trainee Drivers who got their job because they were somebody's Son, Brother, Son-in-Law, Brother-in-Law, friend, neighbour, etc. Nepotism is VERY prevalent on the Railway. I got my own start on British Rail because my Wife just happened to work with with an Inspector's Wife. So if anybody chooses to pay for their own Psychometric Assessment (and/or training) then I say good luck to them. But as I have stated before, ye wouldn't catch ME doing it that way.

My current Employer are more than happy to recruit trainee Drivers who have paid for their own assessment. Not because it saves the Company money; but because it shows initiative, enthusiasm, commitment, and determination.





Sorry to disappoint ye, but I work for one of the major FOCs.

Fair enough mate :)
 

baldieman

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Sounds very familiar! The TOCs have been doing that for a while to, as have the press. Those nasty unions demanding high wages for no work and holding commuters to ransom for it...

My favourite was an article in the times when Mcnulty came out suggesting that drivers often 'demand' 12 hours pay for 2 hours work. Not a lie but written like that certainly far from accurate!

Now if pilots were a more down to earth bunch like train drivers, their terms and conditions would not have been slowly eroded over the years by pay to fly schemes. Aviation is largely the reserve of the rich sadly - always has been and will be so for the foreseeable until either the union or the regulatory bodies intervene - both highly unlikely given that it would not be in the best interests of either party.

In short - be careful what you wish for the rail industry. At the moment, little johnny with a passion for trains can, with dedication, enter the industry and worktheir way up to the drivers cab with no out of pocket expenses. Long may that continue!
 
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