Peak/off peak confusion

[diy_dude]

I think I’ll write to Scotrail about this.
The guard was quite prepared to charge me but only wanted to for the Glasgow to Edinburgh leg, not all the way through to Leuchars. I believe the only reason he didn’t was he couldn’t find the right fare. He did warn me not to do it again. It was all very embarrassing.

The WhatsApp person also gave me incorrect advice. I had posted a copy of my ticket and the train details earlier in the chat with them.

My 2 colleagues delayed their travel back to Dundee until after 18:18 based on my experience and what I was told about ‘peak times’. I bought tickets for all 3 of us through work so felt responsible for the error at the time. It’s good to know I’d checked it correctly, but we all had a rubbish trip home

..and their website is confusing on the subject of afternoon peaks fares too.

 

[maniacmartin]

I'd just like to back up the excellent advice in this thread as this is a common misconception.
There's no such thing as a peak or off-peak train. Peak times are defined differently, depending on the origin and destination of the ticket. The guard should have instead announced that "most off-peak tickets are not valid on the train". This is such a fundamental part of tickets that no-one who doesn't know this should be doing revenue duties

Your delayed colleagues should claim delay repay

 

[diy_dude]

I'd just like to back up the excellent advice in this thread as this is a common misconception.
There's no such thing as a peak or off-peak train. Peak times are defined differently, depending on the origin and destination of the ticket. The guard should have instead announced that "most off-peak tickets are not valid on the train".

Your delayed colleagues should claim delay repay

Tickets were bought through work so my colleagues wouldn’t get any benefit from this.

 

[jfollows]

Tickets were bought through work so my colleagues wouldn’t get any benefit from this.

They can claim delay repay because they were the ones delayed.

 

[Haywain]

Tickets were bought through work so my colleagues wouldn’t get any benefit from this.

Delay Repay is compensation to the traveller, not to the buyer.

 

[megabusser]

It's particularly frustrating given how there's only really four ticket restrictions that ScotRail staff will commonly come across:

• 8F for all Off-Peak Returns - these have no evening peak restrictions
• H9 for Off-Peak Day Returns for journeys entirely within the former Strathclyde PTE area - these have no evening peak restrictions
• H1 for Off-Peak Day Returns for journeys that go beyond the former Strathclyde PTE area - these have evening peak restrictions from Glasgow, Edinburgh and Haymarket
• H4 for all Super Off-Peak Day Returns - these have evening peak restrictions from Glasgow, Edinburgh, Haymarket and Aberdeen

Only tickets for journeys beyond Scotland (or to/from Lockerbie/Dunbar/Reston), or along the West Highland Line, are any different to this.

Is there a logic why the 8F restriction is for trains timed to depart before 09:16, whereas H1 restricts before 09:15? It effectively means a train that leaves at 09:15 is fine for an Off-Peak Day Return but not an Off-Peak (period) Return and journey planners do take it into account. In the evening, the Off-Peak return has fewer restrictions,
so why an extra minute of restrictions in the morning?!

(Apologies if this should be a separate thread).

I was in coach 1 and was checked a couple of minutes out of Croy.

As we've established though, he was wrong. And an utterly abysmal response from WhatsApp.

Hardly surprising though, when ScotRail love plastering "PEAK TIME SERVICE" all over their services in the Central Belt.

For those note in Central Scotland, this is referring to PEAK TIME SERVICE being on departure boards (same place as they display messages like ‘FRONT 4 CARRIAGES’). It’s had me second guess myself when I’ve got an off-peak ticket that I know is valid. It’s really bad practice and should be changed. Guess (like OPs) giving warnings over the tannoy that feature no subtlety don’t help either.

 

[AdamWW]

For those note in Central Scotland, this is referring to PEAK TIME SERVICE being on departure boards (same place as they display messages like ‘FRONT 4 CARRIAGES’). It’s had me second guess myself when I’ve got an off-peak ticket that I know is valid. It’s really bad practice and should be changed. Guess (like OPs) giving warnings over the tannoy that feature no subtlety don’t help either.

I'm not so sure it's the wrong thing for them to do.

Displays (or announcements) saying that off peak tickets aren't valid are different as that's just incorrect.

But if it just says "Peak time service" then it's true, and probably in my view more helpful than otherwise.

Most passengers no doubt have tickets where it does matter, and I expect it's useful for them to have it made clearly which ones they can and can't use off peak tickets on.

 

[alistairlees]

It would be more useful (and accurate) if they said something like "H7 tickets not valid on this train".

 

[AlterEgo]

It would be more useful (and accurate) if they said something like "H7 tickets not valid on this train".

Perhaps. But it still wouldn’t be fully comprehensive.

 

[AdamWW]

It would be more useful (and accurate) if they said something like "H7 tickets not valid on this train".

Accurate yes.
Useful - not in my opinion.

You can see from my other posts on this web forum that I don't rush to defend the railways when I think they could do better.

But I think that most passengers would just find references to H7 restrictions confusing.

I appreciate that in terms of when off-peak tickets are accepted there is no such thing as a peak or off peak train.

But that's not the same as saying that there aren't peak time services - there clearly are - and in my view a display saying as much is not incorrect and more helpful than unhelpful.

What I think would help is to have leaflets and a web page available which clearly spell out some of the basics of ticket rules and making it clear that it applies to the whole network and cannot be overridden by any TOC wishing to do so.

Then when a guard attemps to reject a valid ticket you have something to wave at them to justify your position rather than just having to argue that you know their job better than they do.

Added: Ticket "simplification" must share some of the blame too.
Calling tickets "off peak" when the definition of off peak varies by ticket type (and in some cases at least historically there are no restrictions or silly ones that never apply) has perhaps caused more confusion than it's avoided.

If they'd called them all "savers" or "restricted" they could have still reduced the number of ticket type and avoided this trouble.

 

[jfollows]

Everyone involved just needs to tell the truth, rather than making things up and - worse - writing them down and telling people the wrong story.
If they just changed notices to say "some off-peak tickets are not valid on these services" that would be honest and more accurate.
However I think in this post-COVID world it would be better if all evening peak restrictions were scrapped altogether, everywhere. They're nasty, inconsistent, complicated and staff aren't properly trained to implement them correctly.
Morning peak restrictions, fine, we've had them for ever and they're much simpler. Not before 09:30 or whatever. Been that way since I was born.
It's something that the probably-moribund GBR could have set out to do.
In my opinion this is a better "fare simplification" scheme than fiddling around removing return tickets. Get rid of hundreds of silly, inconsistent and illogical restrictions which were introduced to squeeze small amounts of extra cash out of people who were probably already paying enough anyway.

 

[Gaelan]

However I think in this post-COVID world it would be better if all evening peak restrictions were scrapped altogether, everywhere. They're nasty, inconsistent, complicated and staff aren't properly trained to implement them correctly.

ScotRail, indeed, is apparently going to trial scrapping peak restrictions altogether.

 

[Krokodil]

However I think in this post-COVID world it would be better if all evening peak restrictions were scrapped altogether, everywhere.

Hear, hear.

 

[yorkie]

If anyone would like to make any proposals to discuss changes to the fares system, or post anything else of a speculative nature, please feel free to do so, in the Speculative Discussion forum please

As per our guidelines, this thread is specifically for dealing with the matter in hand (i.e. incorrect information regarding off peak ticket validity) and not proposals to change the system.

Thanks, that’s appreciated.
Back home now and reflecting on it, there were a couple of comments which concern me.
My ticket shows a link to the restrictions: nre.co.uk/8F. I showed him the webpage and he told me it wasn’t relevant and I should check ‘one of ours’.

It's poor training; there are a minority of staff who check tickets (whether it be at gatelines or on trains; edit: to answer the email below, at gatelines is probably more common; in this case it was the Guard and that is rarer in my experience) who either misapply the rules and/or make up the rules as they go along.

I had an argument with an XC Guard who made up his own rules (regarding off peak ticket validity) on Friday last week while heading to a work meeting. While it is a small minority, those of us who take hundreds of trains each year do encounter such people on a not too infrequent basis. You're not alone in experiencing this.

As in your case, the Guard I spoke to was wrong (though his argument was slightly different), and it is based on a misunderstanding / lack of training, which unfortunately is not anywhere near as uncommon as it should be.

Please let us know how you get on with this; Scotrail need to provide compensation, an apology and assurances that appropriate action will be taken in respect of providing appropriate training

(If you are on Twitter, you could tweet Scotrail and I can back you up from the forum's Twitter account).

I work this route. I am constantly reminding my colleagues that there is no such thing as a peak or off peak train. Rather it's the ticket that the passenger holds that determines validity.

Although it has been many years since this happened I fear the change (simplification? ) from savers and cheap days to off peak & off peak day perpetuates this confusion.

I'll pop this thread on our internal page to reinforce the reminding.

Brilliant, thanks for spreading the word

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I had an argument with an XC Guard who made up his own rules (regarding off peak ticket validity) on Friday last week while heading to a work meeting. While it is a small minority, those of us who take hundreds of trains each year do encounter such people on a not too infrequent basis. You're not alone in experiencing this.

Do these disagreements, as regards the validity of off-peak tickets, tend to happen more often when attempting to get through ticket barriers (poorly programmed? - computer says "No"); with onboard visual ticket inspections by a guard (= poorly trained staff?) or even when the ticket has just been scanned by a guard with a handheld scanner type device which flags up an "issue"?

 

[gladiac]

The ScotRail open Edinburgh-Glasgow return with restriction 8F is relatively new (a couple of years I think), but it's pretty straightforward. I second-guessed myself with the peak announcements the first time using it too, but not had a problem with it on-board or at the gates. I've had one instance using a Super Off Peak return (H4) where the ticket examiner insisted the ticket was only valid 1100-1500 and after 2000, ignoring that the afternoon restrictions are only on departures from the big cities - my ticket was voided and I had to buy a new off-peak return. To be fair that's once in 5 years of at least monthly travel, customer services did refund my extra ticket and the website has been updated since to be clear on the departure criteria.

 

[sheff1]

What I think would help is to have leaflets and a web page available which clearly spell out some of the basics of ticket rules and making it clear that it applies to the whole network and cannot be overridden by any TOC wishing to do so.

Then when a guard attemps to reject a valid ticket you have something to wave at them to justify your position rather than just having to argue that you know their job better than they do.

The problem there is that the sort of person who rejects a valid ticket is also likely to be the sort of person who dismisses written evidence becuase "that is wrong"; "that doesn't apply to this TOC" or " I have worked here 20 years and know".

 

[AdamWW]

The problem there is that the sort of person who claims a valid ticket is invalid is also likely to be the sort of person who dismisses written evidence becuase "that is wrong"; "that doesn't apply to this TOC" or " I have worked here 20 years and know".

Yes I agree that is very likely, although as I said my hypothetical leaflet would make it very clear that it does apply to all TOCs etc.

But it would still make the encounter less unpleasant for me if I could point to something in writing contradicting them because then it doesn't come across as me claiming that I know their job better than they do.

 

[Haywain]

if I could point to something in writing contradicting them because then it doesn't come across as me claiming that I know their job better than they do.

I can't see having a printed document changing that.

 

[AdamWW]

I can't see having a printed document changing that.

OK fair point.

It changes my impression of how I come across.

I would much rather point to evidence that I think a staff member is wrong than just assert it.

A leaflet/web page from the railways has some authority. As a passenger I have none.

 

[Krokodil]

It's not unheard of for the information published online to be misleading or just plain wrong.

 

[Haywain]

OK fair point.

It changes my impression of how I come across.

I would much rather point to evidence that I think a staff member is wrong than just assert it.

A leaflet/web page from the railways has some authority. As a passenger I have none.

I understand what you are saying, but those who double down on their error are rarely persuaded otherwise by anything or anybody.

 

[eoff]

I work this route. I am constantly reminding my colleagues that there is no such thing as a peak or off peak train. Rather it's the ticket that the passenger holds that determines validity.

I'm not 100% sure but I think the platform screens at Waverley can show peak train on them. If I remember I can check on Friday.

 

[reb0118]

I'm not 100% sure but I think the platform screens at Waverley can show peak train on them. If I remember I can check on Friday.

They do. However, technically, those screens are wrong. Not all off peak tickets will be invalid on those trains.

 

[diy_dude]

OP here. I’ve had a response from Scotrail. I’m summary, they are saying that my ticket WAS valid and apologised that the information I received varied between departments.

Not sure if I should post the whole response here.

 

[Watershed]

OP here. I’ve had a response from Scotrail. I’m summary, they are saying that my ticket WAS valid and apologised that the information I received varied between departments.

Not sure if I should post the whole response here.

Would be worth posting, I think

 

[Adam Williams]

I've yet to have any real concrete commitment from a TOC in terms of showing me an issued retail brief or planned training when issues like this have cropped up. I hope the Scotrail response is different in this respect.

 

[diy_dude]

Scotrail reply:

Thank you for contacting ScotRail Customer Relations regarding your recent journey between Glasgow Queen Street and Leuchars on the 18th of May 2023.

I was sorry to learn that your journey fell below your expectation on this occasion, and I would like to apologise for this.


Ticket Validity

While I note you refer to the restrictions of the ticket, I can confirm that such a ticket is valid on the 17:45 departure from Glasgow Queen Street. I have replicated the journey and ticket type on the journey search section of the ScotRail website, which permits travel at this time.


Consistency of Information

Train tickets and associated restrictions vary between journeys. While such a service is typically classed as a Peak Service, some additional easements may be in place for certain tickets, such as the one held.

I was sorry to learn that such information varied between departments. ScotRail reviews feedback from customers, and I have logged your comments and concerns for the attention of the relevant department for review. Such feedback allows us to identify any areas where there is a clear need for improvement.

Once again, I would like to apologise for your experience. We expect journeys to be as seamless as possible, and I am sorry this was not reflected on this occasion. I am grateful to you for taking the time to bring this matter to my attention.

Thank you for contacting ScotRail, should you require any further assistance in the future, please get back in touch.

 

[AdamWW]

Consistency of Information

Train tickets and associated restrictions vary between journeys. While such a service is typically classed as a Peak Service, some additional easements may be in place for certain tickets, such as the one held.

Thanks for posting the response.

Surely this bit isn't right though.

There is no special easement that overrides the restriction for some off-peak tickets on their "peak service", they just aren't restricted from those services in the first place.

 

[jfollows]

Thanks for posting the response.

Surely this bit isn't right though.

There is no special easement that overrides the restriction for some off-peak tickets on their "peak service", they just aren't restricted from those services in the first place.

Correct, it's just a form of wording which enables them to imply that this ticket was in some way "special" or "unusual" whereas in fact an off-peak return Edinburgh-Glasgow is valid on the train in question, hardly an unusual ticket. But I guess the alternative of "you were right, we were wrong" is too hard for them to say clearly. And the truth that the fares system is complex and they don't train their staff properly isn't going to happen, is it?

I work this route. I am constantly reminding my colleagues that there is no such thing as a peak or off peak train. Rather it's the ticket that the passenger holds that determines validity.

Although it has been many years since this happened I fear the change (simplification? ) from savers and cheap days to off peak & off peak day perpetuates this confusion.

I'll pop this thread on our internal page to reinforce the reminding.

I meant to reply earlier - I really think you're right here.
Changing (in the name of simplification or whatever) the name of the tickets from "saver" to "off-peak" and then referring to "peak times" and "peak time trains" is one big reason for the confusion. So "off-peak" tickets are clearly not valid for use on "peak time trains" is the wrong logic that ensues. If the tickets were still called "saver" tickets there would be less scope for confusion, because nobody said "non-saver trains" or whatever.
I also note that the code is still "SVR" on ticketing systems, and I refer to them internally (I'm just a passenger) as a "saver" and occasionally even ask for a "saver return to ...." although I know I shouldn't.