Peak times for ticket validity should be determined by the train, not the ticket

[daodao]

Thread opened to discuss alternative options in the light of the discussion on the thread entitled "Paddington-has-its-own-rules-but-what-are-they" at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/paddington-has-its-own-rules-but-what-are-they.267743

Unfortunately the railway has constructed a complicated fare system yet often has little interest in training staff how it works.

Peak times are determined by the ticket, not the train

Is this not the root of the issue? Would it not be simpler and clearer for all concerned (passengers, rail staff and ticket retailers) if peak times were determined by the train, not the ticket, and off peak ticket validity codes were adjusted accordingly? For example, codes for off-peak ticket validity could be changed so that no off-peak tickets of any description would be permitted on any trains due to depart central London termini between 1600 and 1859 on Mondays-Fridays (bank holidays excepted), either at all or at least until a defined station (e.g. Rugby for the LNW line or Didcot/Newbury for the GW line) many miles from the capital.

I recognise that this would be an additional restriction on ticket validity, but it could reduce potential disputes between rail staff and passengers.

 

[DeverseSam]

Thread opened to discuss alternative options in the light of the discussion on the thread entitled "Paddington-has-its-own-rules-but-what-are-they" at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/paddington-has-its-own-rules-but-what-are-they.267743




Is this not the root of the issue?

maybe this needs a poll?!

 

[jfollows]

The problem is the first quote above, not the second. There is nothing inherently wrong with a complicated fare system but the industry employs people to administer it and act in judgement over "transgressors" without training them properly and implicitly allowing them to make up the rules themselves.

The solution isn't to determine "peak" times by train, there are many examples where this just won't work sensibly.

The solution is to scrap the existing fares system and start again. Every time it gets meddled with someone says it's in the cause of "simplification" but it isn't. People who set fares are allowed to play with the system and make it incomprehensible to the majority of people, including a significant number of rail staff as well as the hapless passengers.

However this always seems to fall into the "too hard" category. So instead we get more tinkering and press releases which simply mean more money for the rail operators, whoever they might be today, at the expense of the passenger.

I agree that the incompetence demonstrated at Paddington and on its trains plus the lack of interest by the people in charge is unacceptable, and it's been going on for ten years or more as this forum demonstrates. But it's not isolated, the way in which customer-facing staff make the rules to suit either themselves or at least their misconceptions about how the fares system actually works is widespread.

A proper simplification would also lead to less fare evasion, given that we see many cases here of people who get caught through ignorance rather than through intent to avoid payment. A better system would be one which discriminated between the two cases better, although ultimately not knowing the rules isn't an excuse.

It's like "Great British Railways" which has been festering for years - either do it properly or don't do it at all. Same for fares. Don't tinker. "Peak time trains" isn't the solution. Making sure all staff know there's no such thing would help more today than tinkering.

 

[JonathanH]

A proper simplification would also lead to less fare evasion, given that we see many cases here of people who get caught through ignorance rather than through intent to avoid payment.

Time based restrictions can never really be part of a 'proper simplification', at least not afternoon ones unless you move to a train based restriction.

Let's say that a 'proper simplification' was that there was a morning peak restriction which was based on peak fares being required for travel until 0930 on all routes, and an afternoon peak starting at 1600 ending at 1900 based on the origin point for a journey. That poses an issue at an intermediate point like Paddington where the gateline needs to understand where the journey started to define validity. If the afternoon peak is defined by the time passengers pass through an intermediate point, it causes complications about when a journey starts.

The 'proper simplification' might come from the adoption of a PAYG for local and Advance for long distance model. That moves the problem for gateline staff to just determining whether the passenger has booked a specific long distance train, and the price of the local journey being determined by the time barriers are touched.

Anyone who thinks that afternoon restrictions are going to be removed for peak time travel from London in the name of 'proper simplification' is a bit naive.

 

[jfollows]

And, in terms of a new fares system, no, I haven't thought it through because it would take a workshop of several days to thrash out some of the details, but something like distance-based pricing with the abolition of predatory pricing (eg Avanti-only 10p less than "any permitted") and the scrapping of all afternoon "peak" windows would be my starting point as a passenger.

 

[JonathanH]

the scrapping of all afternoon "peak" windows would be my starting point as a passenger

The introduction of more afternoon "peak" windows is more likely, particularly with a move to PAYG and single leg pricing.

 

[jfollows]

Anyone who thinks that afternoon restrictions are going to be removed for peak time travel from London in the name of 'proper simplification' is a bit naive.

I'm not naive because I don't see it happening but they're toxic to passengers and need to go. This is speculative discussion .....

 

[JonathanH]

I'm not naive because I don't see it happening but they're toxic to passengers and need to go. This is speculative discussion .....

Yes, I agree, although they are an established part of travel in London, perhaps less so elsewhere in the country, particularly in the Northern city areas.

 

[jfollows]

And, given that they won't go, train staff properly so that they don't hand out penalty fares when people travel in afternoon peaks with an off-peak ticket. Northern with its rented thugs, for example.

 

[Djgr]

Thread opened to discuss alternative options in the light of the discussion on the thread entitled "Paddington-has-its-own-rules-but-what-are-they" at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/paddington-has-its-own-rules-but-what-are-they.267743




Is this not the root of the issue? Would it not be simpler and clearer for all concerned (passengers, rail staff and ticket retailers) if peak times were determined by the train, not the ticket, and off peak ticket validity codes were adjusted accordingly? For example, codes for off-peak ticket validity could be changed so that no off-peak tickets of any description would be permitted on any trains due to depart central London termini between 1600 and 1859 on Mondays-Fridays (bank holidays excepted), either at all or at least until a defined station (e.g. Rugby for the LNW line or Didcot/Newbury for the GW line) many miles from the capital.

I recognise that this would be an additional restriction on ticket validity, but it could reduce potential disputes between rail staff and passengers.

It is difficult to see why passengers should suffer additional restrictions simply because the railway industry can't get its act together.

 

[Hadders]

This crops up every so often. Having restrictions determined by the train would lead to farcical outcomes.

Let's have a look at a simple example to demonstrate.

Consider a train from Edinburgh to Kings Cross with the following timings:

Edinburgh d. 08:00
Newcastle d. 09:30
Darlington d. 10:00
York d. 10:30
Doncaster d. 10:56
Peterborough d. 11:50
Kings Cross a. 12:38

I assume this would be a 'peak' train as the train departs its origin at the height of the morning peak? So an Anytime ticket would be required to travel from Peterborough to Kings Cross.

Now consider a train from Leeds to Kings Cross:

Leeds d. 09:56
Wakefield Westgate d. 09:59
Doncaster d. 10:19
Peterborough d. 11:11
Kings Cross a. 11:59

I assume this would be an Off Peak train? So I'd be ok using an Off Peak ticket to travel from Peterborough to Kings Cross.

So an Off Peak ticket would be ok on the 11:11 but an Anytime ticket required to travel on the 11:50. That's bonkers!

 

[The exile]

This crops up every so often. Having restrictions determined by the train would lead to farcical outcomes.

Let's have a look at a simple example to demonstrate.

Consider a train from Edinburgh to Kings Cross with the following timings:

Edinburgh d. 08:00
Newcastle d. 09:30
Darlington d. 10:00
York d. 10:30
Doncaster d. 10:56
Peterborough d. 11:50
Kings Cross a. 12:38

I assume this would be a 'peak' train as the train departs its origin at the height of the morning peak? So an Anytime ticket would be required to travel from Peterborough to Kings Cross.

Now consider a train from Leeds to Kings Cross:

Leeds d. 09:56
Wakefield Westgate d. 09:59
Doncaster d. 10:19
Peterborough d. 11:11
Kings Cross a. 11:59

I assume this would be an Off Peak train? So I'd be ok using an Off Peak ticket to travel from Peterborough to Kings Cross.

So an Off Peak ticket would be ok on the 11:11 but an Anytime ticket required to travel on the 11:50. That's bonkers!

Not necessarily - for two reasons. The first one is that the Edinburgh departure is "against the flow" so would probably count as off-peak anyway.

However, if it didn't: Use a differentiating colour and (say) italics on all timetables and PIS. Red = peak; blue = off-peak. So the Edinburgh train is "red" from Edinburgh to Newcastle and "blue" thereafter. The Leeds train is "blue" throughout.
To take a regional example - a Cross Country train passing north through Bristol at 16.30 might be "blue" from Plymouth to Bristol TM, "red" from Bristol to Cheltenham, then "blue" from there northwards (the exact points are arbitrary for the purpose of the example). Have a standard supplement for upgrading from blue to red (could be banded by distance rather than setting for each pair of stations) - or two (one for doing it in advance; a slightly more expensive one for doing it on the train).

Advance fare would of course be "unaffected" as they are train specific anyway. "Anytime" would assume red throughout. "Off peak" would assume "blue" throughout. Not sure how you'd deal with gatelines - think they'd just have to ignore the "red / blue" difference.

 

[Hadders]

Not necessarily - for two reasons. The first one is that the Edinburgh departure is "against the flow" so would probably count as off-peak anyway.

I could quite easily come with examples in the opposite direction, but the example I used demonstrates the point very simply.

However, if it didn't: Use a differentiating colour and (say) italics on all timetables and PIS. Red = peak; blue = off-peak. So the Edinburgh train is "red" from Edinburgh to Newcastle and "blue" thereafter. The Leeds train is "blue" throughout.

That isn't at all 'simple' to me.

Using my example, are you really proposing that someone taking the 11:50 train from Peterborough should pay more than someone taking the 11:11. Whatever colour coding you use in a timetable (printed versions generally not used these days) it makes no sense.

 

[mangyiscute]

Not necessarily - for two reasons. The first one is that the Edinburgh departure is "against the flow" so would probably count as off-peak anyway.

However, if it didn't: Use a differentiating colour and (say) italics on all timetables and PIS. Red = peak; blue = off-peak. So the Edinburgh train is "red" from Edinburgh to Newcastle and "blue" thereafter. The Leeds train is "blue" throughout.
To take a regional example - a Cross Country train passing north through Bristol at 16.30 might be "blue" from Plymouth to Bristol TM, "red" from Bristol to Cheltenham, then "blue" from there northwards (the exact points are arbitrary for the purpose of the example). Have a standard supplement for upgrading from blue to red (could be banded by distance rather than setting for each pair of stations) - or two (one for doing it in advance; a slightly more expensive one for doing it on the train).

Advance fare would of course be "unaffected" as they are train specific anyway. "Anytime" would assume red throughout. "Off peak" would assume "blue" throughout. Not sure how you'd deal with gatelines - think they'd just have to ignore the "red / blue" difference.

This would just make the system far more complicated, 99% of people wouldn't know whether their train is peak or off peak and it would be a disaster

 

[The exile]

I could quite easily come with examples in the opposite direction, but the example I used demonstrates the point very simply.


That isn't at all 'simple' to me.

Using my example, are you really proposing that someone taking the 11:50 train from Peterborough should pay more than someone taking the 11:11. Whatever colour coding you use in a timetable (printed versions generally not used these days) it makes no sense.

No - the only section of the Edinburgh train which is “red” is to Newcastle.

 

[yorkie]

No - the only section of the Edinburgh train which is “red” is to Newcastle.

How would that be simple? would you only bar tickets to Newcastle? So a ticket to Metrocentre or Chester-le-Street or Heworth would be OK?

Thread opened to discuss alternative options in the light of the discussion on the thread entitled "Paddington-has-its-own-rules-but-what-are-they" at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/paddington-has-its-own-rules-but-what-are-they.267743




Is this not the root of the issue? Would it not be simpler and clearer for all concerned (passengers, rail staff and ticket retailers) if peak times were determined by the train, not the ticket, and off peak ticket validity codes were adjusted accordingly?

No; it would be more complicated.

For example, codes for off-peak ticket validity could be changed so that no off-peak tickets of any description would be permitted on any trains due to depart central London termini between 1600 and 1859 on Mondays-Fridays (bank holidays excepted), either at all or at least until a defined station (e.g. Rugby for the LNW line or Didcot/Newbury for the GW line) many miles from the capital.

So you are proposing an increase in split ticketing opportunities? is that what simplification is about; more split ticketing?

I recognise that this would be an additional restriction on ticket validity, but it could reduce potential disputes between rail staff and passengers.

It would do no such thing; disputes are down to poor training, inadequate safeguards in place and a cultural problem at some TOCs/depots.

 

[Hadders]

No - the only section of the Edinburgh train which is “red” is to Newcastle.

So you wouldn’t have ‘peak’ trains after all!

What would happen if a passenger was using an off peak ticket on a train which suddenly became a peak train during the journey. Say someone leaves York at 14:30 on an off peak ticket travelling to Exeter, between Birmingham and Birstol the train becomes ‘peak’. Do you have to get off the train and wait?

 

[Gaelan]

Do you have to get off the train and wait?

More realistically, they would take a later departure from York to avoid the peak period.

I suppose the fundamental question here is whether the function of peak fares is to reduce crowding - in which case the system described here is appropriate, as a long-distance traveller contributes to crowding just as much as a local one, and it's entirely sensible to encourage long-distance travelers onto quieter trains - or simply to punish / extract maximal revenue from (delete as appropriate) those with no choice but to travel at peak times.

 

[JonathanH]

I suppose the fundamental question here is whether the function of peak fares is to reduce crowding

Historically, it was more about off-peak fares being cheaper to encourage travel outside the period when trains had to cater for large numbers of commuters so a discount was provided to incentivise the use of off-peak trains.

We now seem to think of off-peak fares as the standard product, and the different peak fares representing a premium.

 

[PeterC]

Not necessarily - for two reasons. The first one is that the Edinburgh departure is "against the flow" so would probably count as off-peak anyway.

However, if it didn't: Use a differentiating colour and (say) italics on all timetables and PIS. Red = peak; blue = off-peak. So the Edinburgh train is "red" from Edinburgh to Newcastle and "blue" thereafter. The Leeds train is "blue" throughout.
To take a regional example - a Cross Country train passing north through Bristol at 16.30 might be "blue" from Plymouth to Bristol TM, "red" from Bristol to Cheltenham, then "blue" from there northwards (the exact points are arbitrary for the purpose of the example). Have a standard supplement for upgrading from blue to red (could be banded by distance rather than setting for each pair of stations) - or two (one for doing it in advance; a slightly more expensive one for doing it on the train).

Advance fare would of course be "unaffected" as they are train specific anyway. "Anytime" would assume red throughout. "Off peak" would assume "blue" throughout. Not sure how you'd deal with gatelines - think they'd just have to ignore the "red / blue" difference.

I have advocated something similar before although I would go for a three tier structure (gold, silver, bronze) and use the same name on tickets and announce it on all departures. Journey planners would be expected to show the ticket type on each departure.

The only issue that I can see is high demand at a intermediate traffic centre.

Edited

 

[Gaelan]

More realistically, they would take a later departure from York to avoid the peak period.

I suppose the fundamental question here is whether the function of peak fares is to reduce crowding - in which case the system described here is appropriate, as a long-distance traveller contributes to crowding just as much as a local one, and it's entirely sensible to encourage long-distance travelers onto quieter trains - or simply to punish / extract maximal revenue from (delete as appropriate) those with no choice but to travel at peak times.

That being said, there is the issue, as yorkie alludes to, that if a train is "peak" for only part of its journey, the cheapest option will likely be to buy a separate ticket for the peak section and pay the off-peak fare for everything else.

Ultimately, a fares system which the majority of passengers and the majority of staff do not understand is not fit for purpose; training would help, but frankly, the system is too complex to teach in a reasonable amount of time. I understand the fares system better than more or less anyone I know (not including folks here, of course!) and there's still nuances I'm not clear on. ScotRail has the right idea here with their complete abolition of time restrictions.

Historically, it was more about off-peak fares being cheaper to encourage travel outside the period when trains had to cater for large numbers of commuters so a discount was provided to incentivise the use of off-peak trains.

We now seem to think of off-peak fares as the standard product, and the different peak fares representing a premium.

Yes; the regulation of only off-peak fares, with peak fares allowed to grow without limitation for the past decades, has of course cemented this.

 

[yorkie]

I have advocated something similar before although I would go for a three tier structure (gold, silver, bronze) and use the same name on tickets and announce it on all departures. Journey planners would be expected to show the ticket type on each departure.

As long as the passenger knows that they hold, say, a silver ticket and if all trains fully publicised as gold,silver or bronze I see no real problem as long as implementation isn't botched.

What fare would you buy for a journey from Marlow to Forres, departing at 0806?

Planner - Results - FastJP

fastjp.com

 

[JonathanH]

What fare would you buy for a journey from Marlow to Forres, departing at 0806?

In the near future, I would expect the only option to be an advance fare for that sort of long distance journey, with passengers potentially choosing to make the 'local' part on PAYG if the through advance works out more expensive.

Not ideal, but fairly clear it is the direction the railway is going in.

Moves any argument about peak and off-peak pricing away from the point of travel to the point of booking.

 

[The exile]

So you wouldn’t have ‘peak’ trains after all!

What would happen if a passenger was using an off peak ticket on a train which suddenly became a peak train during the journey. Say someone leaves York at 14:30 on an off peak ticket travelling to Exeter, between Birmingham and Birstol the train becomes ‘peak’. Do you have to get off the train and wait?

No - as clearly stated in my original post, a supplement would be payable for the “red” section only.

 

[JonathanH]

No - as clearly stated in my original post, a supplement would be payable for the “red” section only.

When is the supplement payable? Are you suggesting that holders of flexible tickets effectively tie themselves down to a particular train by their choice of peak travel segment? Wouldn't they just buy an advance ticket instead?

 

[The exile]

When is the supplement payable? Are you suggesting that holders of flexible tickets effectively tie themselves down to a particular train by their choice of peak travel segment? Wouldn't they just buy an advance ticket instead?

As in my original post, on the train or (at a discount) in advance.

 

[Hadders]

More realistically, they would take a later departure from York to avoid the peak period.

I suppose the fundamental question here is whether the function of peak fares is to reduce crowding - in which case the system described here is appropriate, as a long-distance traveller contributes to crowding just as much as a local one, and it's entirely sensible to encourage long-distance travelers onto quieter trains - or simply to punish / extract maximal revenue from (delete as appropriate) those with no choice but to travel at peak times.

We’re discussing how ticking restrictions can be simplified, not how much revenue can be raised. That’s a different topic.

As ever, when someone proposes simplification restrictions by having restrictions based on trains rather than tickets, it quickly becomes apparent that it would be more complicated.

No - as clearly stated in my original post, a supplement would be payable for the “red” section only.

So not simple then.

 

[Craig1122]

It would do no such thing; disputes are down to poor training, inadequate safeguards in place and a cultural problem at some TOCs/depots.

IMO this is a very large part of the problem with a number of customer service related issues. I was lucky enough to start my railway career at a booking office where there was generally a very positive culture. People were engaged and conscientious about selling the correct ticket and keen to learn about new products. That attitude tends to be infectious, as does a culture that heads in the opposite direction. Which one you get at a particular depot or station often seems to be a matter of chance. Management who do not themselves understand the system are a big part of the problem.

I was shocked recently to see that a graduate manager I met at the beginning of their career and who was too terrified to even step into a ticket office, let alone spend some time on a window, is now in a senior position looking after ticketing related issues.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Historically, it was more about off-peak fares being cheaper to encourage travel outside the period when trains had to cater for large numbers of commuters so a discount was provided to incentivise the use of off-peak trains.

We now seem to think of off-peak fares as the standard product, and the different peak fares representing a premium.

Part of which is because the differential has become so ridiculously high on many routes. £350 simply isn't a reasonable return fare from Manchester to London - it's more than twice the cost of driving a very large SUV like a Range Rover on your own.

In the near future, I would expect the only option to be an advance fare for that sort of long distance journey, with passengers potentially choosing to make the 'local' part on PAYG if the through advance works out more expensive.

Not ideal, but fairly clear it is the direction the railway is going in.

Moves any argument about peak and off-peak pricing away from the point of travel to the point of booking.

I don't like it, but the only way to truly simplify is that - what LNER are doing. And that is the likely way it will go.

 

[Gaelan]

We’re discussing how ticking restrictions can be simplified, not how much revenue can be raised. That’s a different topic.

The point I was making is that any change to the fares system requires an understanding of the goals of the system - and revenue of course plays a part in that.

I don't like it, but the only way to truly simplify is that - what LNER are doing. And that is the likely way it will go.

Once again, ScotRail is doing an excellent job of proving this to be false.