Peaked Caps in uniforms

[GWVillager]

It occurred to me recently that I have not seen a peaked cap in a mainline railway uniform for some years, and I was wondering if they remain in any railway uniforms today. If not, what was the last operator to remove them from uniforms (and, by extension, who was the first?)

I noticed that there has been a similar thread to this in the past but it seemed to have reached no conclusions and has since been closed (On a separate note I am not sure where to post this thread: "Railway Jobs & Careers" seemed to be the best fit but if any moderators wish to move it then feel free).

 

[Saxon79]

I know conductors in Belgium wear a peaked cap. You won't see them in UK

 

[43066]

I know conductors in Belgium wear a peaked cap. You won't see them in UK

You will sometimes. I saw then being worn at London Bridge yesterday by RPIs.

 

[16.19]

There are a few conductors based at Leeds who wear them. For now.

 

[bramling]

It occurred to me recently that I have not seen a peaked cap in a mainline railway uniform for some years, and I was wondering if they remain in any railway uniforms today. If not, what was the last operator to remove them from uniforms (and, by extension, who was the first?)

I noticed that there has been a similar thread to this in the past but it seemed to have reached no conclusions and has since been closed (On a separate note I am not sure where to post this thread: "Railway Jobs & Careers" seemed to be the best fit but if any moderators wish to move it then feel free).

LU don’t issue them any more (not sure about revenue, but suspect not). They were issued until the current clown uniform came in a few years ago, though very few chose to wear them.

Some incident response staff carry old ones around (either the type mentioned above, or in a very few cases older ones), and very occasionally these are worn in anger, but generally only at major incidents, particularly dealing with emergency services - as such the general public are unlikely to see them being worn. Sometimes when the 38 stock comes out to play old-school staff might dust the cobwebs off and wear one in anger.

It’s something which gradually faded away over the last couple of decades. In the 90s they were still quite common. Sadly as recently as the 90s they were a symbol of respect and officialdom, now they’re unfortunately a target for abuse.

 

[43066]

It’s something which gradually faded away over the last couple of decades. In the 90s they were still quite common.

Probably for the best for most grades. Wearing an item of uniform beloved of early twentieth century dictators isn’t an ideal look on the railway in 2023….

I suppose for RPIs it marks them out as “enforcement” type staff, so has more of a role!

 

[bramling]

Probably for the best for most grades. Wearing an item of uniform beloved of early twentieth century dictators isn’t an ideal look on the railway in 2023….

Depends I suppose. They work well if the uniform itself is ok. Something like the 1990s LU uniform (essentially a plain navy suit, white shirt, navy striped tie) worked well with the caps. The problem I’d say is the way many Railway uniforms have tended to go down the toilet since the 1990s. There have certainly been some absolutely dire uniforms over recent years, the current LU uniform being a prime example. Northern’s is absolutely horrendous too.

 

[GWVillager]

Sadly as recently as the 90s they were a symbol of respect and officialdom, now they’re unfortunately a target for abuse.

Abuse? Why, what for?

You will sometimes. I saw then being worn at London Bridge yesterday by RPIs.

Are they actually railway employees though, or are they contracted?

 

[43066]

There have certainly been some absolutely dire uniforms over recent years, the current LU uniform being a prime example. Northern’s is absolutely horrendous too.

There are indeed! The old blue LU one was also petty strange.

Are they actually railway employees though, or are they contracted?

RPIs are railway employees (Southeastern in this case).

 

[bramling]

Abuse? Why, what for?

Because instead of being a symbol of respect like in the past, nowadays for whatever reason they are seen as weird.

As for why this may be, my guess is this is but another symptom of the systematic trashing of every public institution in this country which Tony Blair and Alastair Campbell started.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2023 ==

There are indeed! The old blue LU one was also petty strange.

I take it you’re referring to the one before the current clown outfit? That wasn’t too bad in its later (navy blue) form, but the original version (royal blue) wasn’t too good.

I’ve heard it suggested the current horrific uniform is meant to be changing, going from navy to a lighter and more garish shade of blue. Pretty impressive to take an absolutely awful uniform and manage to make it *even* worse, but that’s TFL all over.

 

[43066]

I take it you’re referring to the one before the current clown outfit? That wasn’t too bad in its later (navy blue) form, but the original version (royal blue) wasn’t too good.

I’m thinking of the Royal Blue one. I can’t really remember the navy one, which is generally a good sign!

 

[GWVillager]

RPIs are railway employees (Southeastern in this case).

Oh, are they still available or left over from old uniforms?

 

[43066]

Oh, are they still available or left over from old uniforms?

They are still shown wearing them on the recruitment website, so very much current!

Revenue Protection Officer | Roles | Southeastern

www.southeasternrailway.co.uk

(Link is to Southeastern website showing pictures of RPIs wearing peaked caps)

 

[Horizon22]

They are still shown wearing them on the recruitment website, so very much current!

Revenue Protection Officer | Roles | Southeastern

www.southeasternrailway.co.uk

(Link is to Southeastern website showing pictures of RPIs wearing peaked caps)

Revenue protection / enforcement is the role they seem to be most seen in - if any - due to the association it brings with the police / law enforcement. For instance many enforcement officers for councils on the roads still have similar uniforms.

I personally think it seems a tad outdated / militaristic for the railway but I can see what it perseveres as a uniform and it’s not hard to draw a line to BR days, which had a high intake of ex-military roles.

 

[GWVillager]

They are still shown wearing them on the recruitment website, so very much current!

Revenue Protection Officer | Roles | Southeastern

www.southeasternrailway.co.uk

(Link is to Southeastern website showing pictures of RPIs wearing peaked caps)

Wow, with those hefty high-vis jackets they look more like police officers than anything else!



As for guards, 2011 seems to be the latest definite recording of them I can see, in a video of Class 172s with London Midland (

at about 5:10), but I started travelling semi regularly with them in 2015 and don’t recall ever encountering them. Indeed, I have no memory of them anywhere on the network in the 2010s.

Revenue protection / enforcement is the role they seem to be most seen in - if any - due to the association it brings with the police / law enforcement. For instance many enforcement officers for councils on the roads still have similar uniforms.

That was my thinking with them being so common on traffic wardens etc. That said, GWR’s Revenue Protection Officers appear to wear exactly the same uniforms as anyone else.

 

[FGW_DID]

That said, GWR’s Revenue Protection Officers appear to wear exactly the same uniforms as anyone else.

There are some subtle differences in the GWR uniform dependant on role / grade. (I would have to look at the colleague uniform guide to tell you what they actually are though )

 

[43066]

Wow, with those hefty high-vis jackets they look more like police officers than anything else!

I believe those are anti stab vests: par for the course in many of the areas they serve, I’m afraid!

 

[bramling]

Wow, with those hefty high-vis jackets they look more like police officers than anything else!

IMO they look absolutely ridiculous. Much as parts of Southeastern are rough, there’s simply no reason for staff to be going round dressed like they’re ready for guerilla warfare.

 

[zwk500]

IMO they look absolutely ridiculous. Much as parts of Southeastern are rough, there’s simply no reason for staff to be going round dressed like they’re ready for guerilla warfare.

A member of SouthEastern staff at Bromley South was very seriously stabbed not too long ago, so there's plenty of reason for them to wear a stab-resistant vest.

 

[AlterEgo]

I know conductors in Belgium wear a peaked cap. You won't see them in UK

They have both the peaked cap and something taller a bit like a kepi. Very smart.

 

[43066]

They have both the peaked cap and something taller a bit like a kepi. Very smart.

Does that really look smart? Or is it just a tad militaristic, anachronistic, and odd in 2023? Especially considering these people are not performing a ceremonial pomp and pageantry type role, they’re engaging with people and entering into conflict situations with them, with potentially serious legal consequences in some situations.

I’m just conscious that there is an element of fetishisation of historical uniforms amongst railway enthusiasts, and I’m not sure peaked caps or Kepis are now relevant or appropriate in any setting, when viewed objectively.

Sadly stab vests, body cams and anti spit kits very much are relevant, and perhaps that proves @bramling’s statement in post #10 above!

 

[bramling]

Does that really look smart? Or is it just a tad militaristic, anachronistic, and odd in 2023?

I’d say they’re only anachronistic because people, nowadays, aren’t used to seeing them. Back in the 90s it was simply normal and no one would bat an eyelid. I guess things change, though given some of the clown outfits that pass as uniform now (yes TFL!) it’s a matter for debate whether things have changed for the better.

I’m just conscious that there is an element of fetishisation of historical uniforms amongst railway enthusiasts, and I’m not sure peaked caps or Kepis are now relevant or appropriate in any setting, when viewed objectively.

I don’t know, thinking about my place there are a small number of uniform fetishists, but in their cases the two fetish items seem to be tac or stab vests (I should add none of the people I’m thinking of are revenue), or orange hi-vi coats.

I’ve never really seen the advantage of the latter, except on the very rare occasion of being stuck somewhere like on a signal post on a freezing winter night in torrential rain. Any other time they’re a complete pain in the arse, not least because if you’re trying to get anywhere then you will be bombarded with people asking questions. They also attract dirt and dust like anything, yet are almost impossible to wash.

One of the problems nowadays is identifying who’s who at an incident. With standardised uniforms this can be a real problem, one of the benefits of caps was it provided a reasonably ready identifier.

Sadly stab vests, body cams and anti spit kits very much are relevant, and perhaps that proves @bramling’s statement in post #10 above!

I can get why the exist, but they’re not really something I’m enthusiastic about. It does kind of give the impression that the criminals have won.

 

[43066]

don’t know, thinking about my place there are a small number of uniform fetishists, but in their cases the two fetish items seem to be tac or stab vests (I should add none of the people I’m thinking of are revenue), or orange hi-vi coats.

I’ve never really seen the advantage of the latter, except on the very rare occasion of being stuck somewhere like on a signal post on a freezing winter night in torrential rain. Any other time they’re a complete pain in the arse, not least because if you’re trying to get anywhere then you will be bombarded with people asking questions. They also attract dirt and dust like anything, yet are almost impossible to wash.

One of the problems nowadays is identifying who’s who at an incident. With standardised uniforms this can be a real problem, one of the benefits of caps was it provided a reasonably ready identifier.

Quite honestly I hate uniform full stop and do my level best to avoid wearing it! It makes me a target, I find it makes me feel demeaned and working class in a way that I’m not, and never have been in terms of education, aspiration or earnings.

Honestly? I’d rather wear an anonymous suit to work.

I can get why the exist, but they’re not really something I’m enthusiastic about. It does kind of give the impression that the criminals have won.

They already have won!

The trick is to move out to a point where it’s less stabby and grim. I’ve relocated from stab central to a quiet road where I can a hell of a lot of trees, have a whole extra floor upstairs, and can hear churchbells ringing. People also say hello and smile when they see you on the street.

You’re in St Albans, I think? I suspect it’s similar there.

 

[the sniper]

I’m just conscious that there is an element of fetishisation of historical uniforms amongst railway enthusiasts, and I’m not sure peaked caps or Kepis are now relevant or appropriate in any setting, when viewed objectively.

I much prefer traditional uniform, the likes of a peaked cap make staff more readily recognisable and give an impression of formality, which customer service grades should be/have, particularly the likes of RPIs.
The Brittas Empire, 90s leisure centre excuse for a uniform looks pretty woeful to me and give no impression of professionalism.

 

[GWVillager]

IMO they look absolutely ridiculous. Much as parts of Southeastern are rough, there’s simply no reason for staff to be going round dressed like they’re ready for guerilla warfare.

Yes, they make sense in high risk areas but there is the psychological effect of the stab proof vests to bear in mind - you are less likely to be civil with someone wearing one than a smart uniform - so they ought not to be used when not necessary.

Does that really look smart? Or is it just a tad militaristic, anachronistic, and odd in 2023? Especially considering these people are not performing a ceremonial pomp and pageantry type role, they’re engaging with people and entering into conflict situations with them, with potentially serious legal consequences in some situations.

I’m just conscious that there is an element of fetishisation of historical uniforms amongst railway enthusiasts, and I’m not sure peaked caps or Kepis are now relevant or appropriate in any setting, when viewed objectively.

I have to agree with a few other posts here, I personally quite like them and the reason they seem out of place is likely almost entirely down to their modern day rarity. Places like Belgium don’t consider them outdated, as others have said. And of course they help with identification, I (like a lot of others here!) volunteer on a heritage railway and life would be somewhat more difficult without the caps to instantly identify staff.

That said, they really have to be integrated into the uniform well, otherwise they look completely off. GNER and the old TfL uniform seemed to do this decently.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Slightly related to this thread, I note that the new station signage (at Sheffield) includes a pictogram of a Station Supervisor wearing a cap whilst sitting in an office. This does sort of set expectations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’d say they’re only anachronistic because people, nowadays, aren’t used to seeing them. Back in the 90s it was simply normal and no one would bat an eyelid. I guess things change, though given some of the clown outfits that pass as uniform now (yes TFL!) it’s a matter for debate whether things have changed for the better.

I certainly do think some TOC uniforms are downright scruffy - Northern's is one of the worst. No objection to the combination of a polo and smart trousers and shoes, but the shade of blue used just gives it a very scruffy look.

I do think the Belgian uniform is charmingly anachronistic, which sums up Belgium as a whole really. I'm not sure the UK peaked cap has quite the same association - most people associate it with "jobsworths", i.e. unhelpful staff - indeed, Esther Rantzen's quite amusing "That's Life" programme used to issue a trophy which was a peaked cap on a wooden base for their "Jobsworth Award".

As for paramilitary security staff, I don't like that either. I get that stab vests are necessary in some places, and that they probably need to look threatening in some cases, but there's threatening and there's looking like a soldier. I saw a couple of Avanti ones not so long ago and they were actually wearing army style boots, which gives totally the wrong impression - together with the Avanti green colour they genuinely looked military. Though I do like the fact that my regular bit of the railway doesn't really need them because there's relatively little antisocial behaviour.

At least most of them don't get close to committing the offence of impersonating a Police officer, as per the ones that patrol Canary Wharf, where they've clearly sought legal advice on just how close they can get to Police uniform without committing that offence. (See also those hi-vis jackets worn by some horse riders and cyclists that say "POLITE SLOW"* on them with the chequer markings you get on actual Police cars and uniforms).

* That's one reason you often see "Polite Notice" on signage - not because they're being polite, but because people will misread it as "Police Notice" and so be more likely to do or not do what it asks.

I can get why the exist, but they’re not really something I’m enthusiastic about. It does kind of give the impression that the criminals have won.

It's certainly my line that if a pub has bouncers it's because it needs them (because the trade's finances are so tight that nobody would pay for them if they weren't necessary), and thus it isn't a nice pub that I'd perhaps better give a miss, though I am conscious some licensing authorities just require it of all alcohol serving venues.

 

[12LDA28C]

I find it makes me feel demeaned and working class in a way that I’m not, and never have been in terms of education, aspiration or earnings.


(maybe I’m a little elitist)

So appearing to be (in your opinion), or feeling 'working class' is demeaning, really? Wow.

Elitist, certainly, or less politely a snob, I would say.

I frequently agree with many of your posts on here but IMO these kind of comments might be construed as rather offensive to many.
Driving trains was traditionally a very 'working class' job although I don't believe it is these days due to the professional salary and the reduction in the manual / physical element of the job, particularly on the passenger side of things. Always a good idea to remember one's roots or at least the history of the industry one is employed in, I find.

 

[BeijingDave]

Because instead of being a symbol of respect like in the past, nowadays for whatever reason they are seen as weird.

As for why this may be, my guess is this is but another symptom of the systematic trashing of every public institution in this country which Tony Blair and Alastair Campbell started.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2023 ==



I take it you’re referring to the one before the current clown outfit? That wasn’t too bad in its later (navy blue) form, but the original version (royal blue) wasn’t too good.

I’ve heard it suggested the current horrific uniform is meant to be changing, going from navy to a lighter and more garish shade of blue. Pretty impressive to take an absolutely awful uniform and manage to make it *even* worse, but that’s TFL all over.

I would go back further than Blair to at least Major. Blair may have accelerated it.

Adam Curtis' BBC documentary 'The Trap' is worth watching on this topic if you can get hold of it anywhere.

 

[Stigy]

We wore them at SWR, although it was a stand-alone uniform if you will (Rail Community Officer). Southeastern/Southern etc Rail Enforcement Officers wore them too. SWR are now wearing baseball caps though I noticed recently. I preferred the caps to be honest. Baseball caps make staff look like bouncers or security guards in my opinion and aren’t as smart.