Penalty Charge retrospectively by GWR based on Trainline history for the past 5 years

[marcali]

Hi everyone,

I have recently taken a train to Castle Cary (going to Glastonbury on June 26) and when I was presenting my ticket on the exit I realised that my Railcard expired so they have sent me to a GWR representitives on the side who were taking details from anyone with a similar situation. They presented an ID and asked to record our conversation, I said yes. I have explained that I have made an honest mistake and forgot to renew when it expired at the end of april, he had asked to see my Trainline history (which is how I get all my tickets) and I said I have my little brothers tickets there too so that's why I have booked tickets since my railcard exired(he haqs taken jurneys in may and june using my trainline with his 16-17 saver card), he didn't check it in detail and wrote a lot of things down without saying anything, noting this comment about my brother.

He then asked that the GWR needs to make a GDPR request to Trainline for my account and I need to provide evidence for my brother's Railcard to which I said yes without thinking too much. I have now receved a whopping £5563 fine from GWR for the jurneys that I have allegedly taking 'improper' from May 3 2018 till June 18th 2023 without a valid 16-25, 26-30 and 17-18 railcards. They did not explain which specific jurneys and where does this number come from and basically just assumed I didn't have any Railcards for 5 years. I have always had a Railcard and I have a proof of that, however I think I had physical railcards with my university account pre 2019 so I cannot even get proof for the Railcards that far ago, I have called the railcard support asking if they can provide me with the evidence but they delete inactive accounts after 2 years.

I am just appalled that GWR can retrospectively charge me this insane amount without any proof or evidence that I didn't have the Railcards or have taken the jurneys at all. I undestand I need to pay a penalty for that one jurney they stopped me for but I can't undestand how they can charge me for 5 years worth of jurneys based on my trainline history. I have bought tickets for friends and famlily at times in the past 5 years that I can't even remeber now and I don't understand how they can do this to me. Additionally I have taken many trains with different train companies over the past 5 years and I am confused how GWR can issue me a penalty for all of those jurneys even if they are not the operator. This whole thing seems absurd and a little bit like a scam. They said I don't have railcards because they are not recorded in the trainline app, I use the railcard app to store my digital railcards.

Does anyone know what is the regulation or the law for this kind of situation as I am shocked by this and not sure how to go about appealing about all my train jurneys for the past 5 years.

Thank you in advance! Would appreciate any help!

 

[Snow1964]

Firstly when did your railcard expire, have you still got it (sounds like you presented it at Castle Cary, but it had expired, please confirm or deny). Have you had railcards in previous years.

GWR are basically fishing, they have no evidence that you travelled on any previous date (unless you told them that). Therefore the ridiculous £5563 fine is just a guess.

You need to apologise, say you have sorted your expired railcard (assuming you have), offer to pay the full fare for journey on which you were caught, and reasonable costs.

You do not need to incriminate yourself by admitting to any other journeys. Others will be along soon and advise if it worth mentioning you share a family Trainline account, and others in your family have same railcard

 

[marcali]

Firstly when did your railcard expire, have you still got it (sounds like you presented it at Castle Cary, but it had expired, please confirm or deny). Have you had railcards in previous years.

GWR are basically fishing, they have no evidence that you travelled on any previous date (unless you told them that). Therefore the ridiculous £5563 fine is just a guess.

You need to apologise, say you have sorted your expired railcard (assuming you have), offer to pay the full fare for journey on which you were caught, and reasonable costs.

You do not need to incriminate yourself by admitting to any other journeys. Others will be along soon and advise if it worth mentioning you share a family Trainline account, and others in your family have same railcard

yes I have presented an expired railcard that expired at the end of April and I have bought a new railcard on the same date that that happen. I haven't admitted anything apart from the part that I share my account with family. I have always had all the railcards but I can't produce evidence past 2019 as my old account was deleted. Thank you!

 

[cactustwirly]

It is up to GWR to prove you travelled without a railcard for the other journeys, however I would strongly recommend gathering evidence of your past railcards and your brothers railcards. Keep it in a safe place for now, and don't reveal it to GWR yet. It may come in useful in the future.

As others have said go back to GWR just for the journey to Castle Cary, and share a picture of your expired railcard. Apologize and explain you didn't realize it had expired etc.

Next time do not share your journey history or anything, you are under no obligation to. You do not have to answer any questions except for your name and address.

 

[Haywain]

He then asked that the GWR needs to make a GDPR request to Trainline for my account and I need to provide evidence for my brother's Railcard to which I said yes without thinking too much. I have now receved a whopping £5563 fine from GWR for the jurneys that I have allegedly taking 'improper' from May 3 2018 till June 18th 2023 without a valid 16-25, 26-30 and 17-18 railcards.

I think you need to engage with a specialist solicitor. I normally advise against this due to cost, but in this case it is much more likely to result in saving you money. A couple of other posters have reported a positive experience using Manak Solicitors.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Please could you attach a picture of the letter from GWR, with your personal details hidden ('redacted')? That will help us to understand what stage this matter has got to. And that will help us to give the best advice of what you should say to GWR.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

It would be helpful if you could upload all of the correspondence between GWR and you about this but do redact any personal details or case reference details.

From a legal point of view GWR could prosecute you for the single offence where you were caught at Castle Cary with an invalid ticket. They have researched your online ticket purchasing history and believe there are further irregularities and are offering you the opportunity to pay them a sum of money in return for not prosecuting.

I agree with @Haywain that using a solicitor is probably the best way forward here, given the sum they're asking for.

 

[marcali]

Here is the original letter, I have no correspondance as I only received this and have not replied yet. They have a video recording of me at castle cary explaining I forgot to renew my expired railcard and stating I share this account with friends and family.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is someone somewhere jumping to the stupid conclusion that if you happen to use trainline for ticket purchase you must have also had an online railcard through trainline? Also of course ignoring the possibility you bought tickets for others.

It’s going to be very difficult for most people to retrospectively prove they had a railcard bought elsewhere, either at a ticket office or online, if like me they threw the paperwork receipt away every time the annual paper railcard expired…

 

[Hadders]

:GWR's Revenue Peotections Policy says:

https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-website/files/revenue-protection-policy/GWR-Revenue-Protection-Policy-January-2023-v2.pdf

If you aren’t happy with the way we are handling your case, or you have any details you think will help, please email our Prosecutions department at [email protected] If you do not contact us, you may not have the chance to talk about your case before you go to court.

I would consider writing to them, giving further detail sof your ticket purchasing habits, and outlining why the figure they have quoted is incorrect. As said upthread given the sum involved it might be better if this came from a solicitor.

 

[Snow1964]

It’s going to be very difficult for most people to retrospectively prove they had a railcard bought elsewhere, either at a ticket office or online, if like me they threw the paperwork receipt away every time the annual paper railcard expired…

It's also going to very difficult for the rail company to prove someone travelled unless they have kept cctv for years and are prepared to trawl it to show the person travelling.

Going back to the case, they know there was a railcard which expired April, (it was shown before realising it had expired). Was this a 1 year or a 3 year railcard ? (From memory the 4 year Santander Bank student 16-25 railcards always expire 31 August, so can't be 4 year one)

 

[fandroid]

:GWR's Revenue Peotections Policy says:

https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-website/files/revenue-protection-policy/GWR-Revenue-Protection-Policy-January-2023-v2.pdf

I would consider writing to them, giving further detail sof your ticket purchasing habits, and outlining why the figure they have quoted is incorrect. As said upthread given the sum involved it might be better if this came from a solicitor.

I'm not sure that "giving further detail" is necessarily a good thing apart from possibly a general statement saying that the OP buys tickets for family and friends as well as himself and all discounted tickets have been based on valid Railcards. And no he hasn't kept records. He doesn't want to use whatever records he does have only for GWR to then pick on the other unrecorded tickets and steadily demand more and more.

The only exception should be with regards to the journey when he was challenged. Give full details of that. GWR might want to look at other tickets since the Railcard expired, but let them do the work

 

[Hadders]

I'm not sure that "giving further detail" is necessarily a good thing apart from possibly a general statement saying that the OP buys tickets for family and friends as well as himself and all discounted tickets have been based on valid Railcards. And no he hasn't kept records. He doesn't want to use whatever records he does have only for GWR to then pick on the other unrecorded tickets and steadily demand more and more.

The only exception should be with regards to the journey when he was challenged. Give full details of that. GWR might want to look at other tickets since the Railcard expired, but let them do the work

What do you suggest?

If the OP does nothing the case will end up in court and contacting GWR is hardly going to see the amount they’re asking for increase.

 

[kkong]

Here is the original letter, I have no correspondance as I only received this and have not replied yet.

Your full name is visible in the PDF document properties.

Therefore you may wish to remove this and re-upload the PDF, if you don't want your name to be visible to readers of the forum.

 

[fandroid]

What do you suggest?

If the OP does nothing the case will end up in court and contacting GWR is hardly going to see the amount they’re asking for increase.

The suggestions are in my previous reply.

Perhaps they could reply in the way that you normally recommend, sticking only to the offence for which they were stopped, but to add that over 5k is an absurd amount to be asking and requesting that they focus on the that incident. The only decision to be made concerns whether they admit to other discounted journeys since the latest Railcard expired.

 

[Hadders]

The suggestions are in my previous reply

I see, but I’m not sure how that is going to assist in obtaining a favourable outcome for the OP.

The time to have said nothing was when originally stopped, now is probably the time for a more pragmatic approach.

 

[Haywain]

GWR might want to look at other tickets since the Railcard expired, but let them do the work

You seem to be overlooking that they have already done the work, and they have come up with an answer. As I said before, the OP would be well advised to say nothing himself but to engage with an experienced legal firm to speak on his behalf.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I would agree with the consensus that if at all possible you should engage a solicitor who will give you advice that you can legally rely on (remember - we're just a bunch of enthusiasts on the internet). But if you can't manage a solicitor, then make sure that you stay in contact with GWR: this is not something that will go away if you ignore it. When you travelled to Castle Cary with an invalid railcard you broke the law, and GWR will certainly be able to take that to court.

 

[marcali]

I would agree with the consensus that if at all possible you should engage a solicitor who will give you advice that you can legally rely on (remember - we're just a bunch of enthusiasts on the internet). But if you can't manage a solicitor, then make sure that you stay in contact with GWR: this is not something that will go away if you ignore it. When you travelled to Castle Cary with an invalid railcard you broke the law, and GWR will certainly be able to take that to court.

Yes I did offer to pay the full fare right there or the fine but they said no and went away with my Trainline history and assigned a bunch of violations to me which are not correct without any proof. I more than happy to pay the fine for that specific journey but it seems to me they just making this very difficult and trying to get as much money out of me as possible. I'm just confused why they have gone 5 years ago and assumed I was taking all those journeys without a Railcard and why I need to produce evidence that far, do I also need to produce evidence for every person who used the ticket on my Trainline, that's just absurd.

 

[fandroid]

It's important not to panic. The sum is scary but that doesn't mean the letter should be responded to in any way but a normal one.

They probably had a big haul of invalid tickets from the Glastonbury weekend, and to make the load easier for them have just applied a formulaic approach of checking ticket buying records, assuming all Railcard discounts are dodgy (especially if Trainline has no record of selling you one) doing the sums and sticking the total in a letter. They only have proper evidence of one incident, plus a few more probables in the period after your Railcard expired. The rest is really very slim.

The fact that you had a Railcard indicates that you had previously been legitimately buying discounted tickets for yourself and it's likely that you had with previous personal Railcards.

 

[jacksonbang]

Unless you know something about your history that leads them to this excessive action I would suggest it's a scare tactic - similar to what collection agencies use. I cannot understand how, using legally acceptable data, anyone could decide what tickets were used without a valid railcard over a period of 5 years. I use my online accounts to buy my 80-something parents travel tickets - does that mean in a few years time I will be pulled over and have my data trawled through and need to answer for every transaction.

I'd almost be amused if they sent me that letter.

 

[fandroid]

Could the OP simply pay the £91.30 fare and the £90 "admin fee"?

I wonder why they included those specific figures in their letter if they seriously expected to get the £5k+ they are threatening him with.

By adding on the £90 they are effecting saying that would wipe the slate clean on the one incident they have complete evidence for.

It could well be worth paying a solicitor to present that to GWR in a way that would force GWR to accept it. It would cost, but hopefully just one (or two) letters would leave GWR high and dry.

 

[Hadders]

Could the OP simply pay the £91.30 fare and the £90 "admin fee"?

I wonder why they included those specific figures in their letter if they seriously expected to get the £5k+ they are threatening him with.

By adding on the £90 they are effecting saying that would wipe the slate clean on the one incident they have complete evidence for.

As things currently stand the OP has two choices:

1. Pay £5,673.05 to GWR to settle the case without court action
2. Let the matter proceed to court

If the matter goes to court GWR would only be able to prosecute for the offence where the OP was caught. They would most likely try and prosecute under the Regulation of the Railways Act rather than the Railway Bylaws. Upon conviction the total fine and costs would be less than £5k but there would be a criminal record.

A third option is to engage with GWR and see if the amount they are requesting can be reduced by offering an explanation for some of the tickets purchased with a railcard. Due to the amount involved this is probably best done by a solicitor.

 

[AdamWW]

If the matter goes to court GWR would only be able to prosecute for the offence where the OP was caught. They would most likely try and prosecute under the Regulation of the Railways Act rather than the Railway Bylaws.

I believe that RoRA prosecutions require intent. Wouldn't the fact that it could have been a genuine error mean such a prosecution would be uncertain?

 

[Haywain]

I believe that RoRA prosecutions require intent. Wouldn't the fact that it could have been a genuine error mean such a prosecution would be uncertain?

No, that's not how intent works. It's based on words and actions, not thoughts. Buying and using an invalid ticket could well be enough to demonstrate intent.

 

[telstarbox]

Putting the original Railcard expiry to one side, I think it's sharp practice for GWR to ask someone for GDPR permission on the spot when it's already a high pressure situation and they won't necessarily understand the implications. It would have been fairer to ask for that in the letter.

 

[Haywain]

Putting the original Railcard expiry to one side, I think it's sharp practice for GWR to ask someone for GDPR permission on the spot when it's already a high pressure situation and they won't necessarily understand the implications. It would have been fairer to ask for that in the letter.

They didn't need to ask for it.

 

[AdamWW]

No, that's not how intent works. It's based on words and actions, not thoughts. Buying and using an invalid ticket could well be enough to demonstrate intent.

I do understand that.

But I didn't think that the law automatically took the position that there's no such thing as an honest mistake.

 

[Haywain]

I do understand that.

But I didn't think that the law automatically took the position that there's no such thing as an honest mistake.

That would be for the court to decide.

 

[AdamWW]

That would be for the court to decide.

Yes - hence my comment that such a prosecution might be uncertain.