Penalty Fare at Victoria (Southern vs Gat Ex)

[derby]

Hi,

I landed into Gatwick and picked up a ticket (reading the details from it) OFF-PEAK TCDS Gatwick Airport & LONDON ZONES 1-6 Route SOUTHERN ONLY.

I traveled to Victoria and my ticket did not work on the barrier to leave the station. I gave it to the member of staff on the barrier and she said it was not valid on the Gatwick Express and I had to pay an 'excess'.

I was aware that the ticket was only valid on Southern routes (and not FCC routes) so to clarify the Southern routes I showed her the "Southern route map" on their website:

http://www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/plan-your-journey/network-map/

The Gatwick Express route is clearly shown as a Southern Route, much like the West London route and the Coastway West route. This is the same as the route map shown at all stations which would show the services I could taken on a Southern Only ticket.

The ATOC website also shows the Southern train operator as operating the Gatwick Express:

http://www.atoc.org/train-companies/southern/

Coming from the horse's mouth this seemed a pretty open and shut case, however she did not listen to me and insisted I had to pay an additional fare. Further lack of listening continued for about 20 minutes between her colleagues after which I was late and had to get home so my partner could continue to not listen to me.

I refused to pay an additional fare but offered to give my name and address if they wanted to follow it up at a later date. Again they refused this and I said I needed to leave the station, I wrote down my name and address and gave it to her and offered my driving license if they wanted ID but I wasn't going to stand penned in for hours in deadlock. Still trapped 10 minutes later without any change in their position when the subsequent train arrived I left the gateline with another passenger, again offering my details if they wanted to pursue it.

At this point a guy in a Southern uniform came over and said he was going to charge me a penalty fare. I explained the situation again but he didn't listen, and he said I had to pay £10 on the spot or he would call the BTP for fare evasion. At this point I had little choice and gave him my credit card. He retained my ticket and I'm now presumably waiting for something in the post.

My credit card company were very understanding and charged back the £10 and the £16.20 for the original ticket as I was unable to use it for the rest of the day, but I'm not sure what to expect now?

In my view the ticket restriction is for Southern routes, i.e. routes operated by Southern, and by Southern's and ATOC's own admission Southern operates the Gatwick Express... case closed?

 

[221129]

Hi,

I landed into Gatwick and picked up a ticket (reading the details from it) OFF-PEAK TCDS Gatwick Airport & LONDON ZONES 1-6 Route SOUTHERN ONLY.

I traveled to Victoria and my ticket did not work on the barrier to leave the station. I gave it to the member of staff on the barrier and she said it was not valid on the Gatwick Express and I had to pay an 'excess'.

I was aware that the ticket was only valid on Southern routes (and not FCC routes) so to clarify the Southern routes I showed her the "Southern route map" on their website:

http://www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/plan-your-journey/network-map/

The Gatwick Express route is clearly shown as a Southern Route, much like the West London route and the Coastway West route. This is the same as the route map shown at all stations which would show the services I could taken on a Southern Only ticket.

The ATOC website also shows the Southern train operator as operating the Gatwick Express:

http://www.atoc.org/train-companies/southern/

Coming from the horse's mouth this seemed a pretty open and shut case, however she did not listen to me and insisted I had to pay an additional fare. Further lack of listening continued for about 20 minutes between her colleagues after which I was late and had to get home so my partner could continue to not listen to me.

I refused to pay an additional fare but offered to give my name and address if they wanted to follow it up at a later date. Again they refused this and I said I needed to leave the station, I wrote down my name and address and gave it to her and offered my driving license if they wanted ID but I wasn't going to stand penned in for hours in deadlock. Still trapped 10 minutes later without any change in their position when the subsequent train arrived I left the gateline with another passenger, again offering my details if they wanted to pursue it.

At this point a guy in a Southern uniform came over and said he was going to charge me a penalty fare. I explained the situation again but he didn't listen, and he said I had to pay £10 on the spot or he would call the BTP for fare evasion. At this point I had little choice and gave him my credit card. He retained my ticket and I'm now presumably waiting for something in the post.

My credit card company were very understanding and charged back the £10 and the £16.20 for the original ticket as I was unable to use it for the rest of the day, but I'm not sure what to expect now?

In my view the ticket restriction is for Southern routes, i.e. routes operated by Southern, and by Southern's and ATOC's own admission Southern operates the Gatwick Express... case closed?

I would NOT have offered my card and would let them call BTP as you committed no offence as far as I can see.

 

[transmanche]

Ah, the old Southern vs Gatwick Express can of worms.

IMHO, you knew exactly what you were doing... :roll:

 

[furlong]

First, read this document and consider under which categories some of the company's actions might be considered to have fallen and whether you wish to bring this to the attention of the ORR in case this was not an isolated incident.

Other routes include considering whether any of company's actions might amount to a franchise breach about which the DfT ought to be aware, or whether your local M.P. might be interested in pursuing any matter you might raise.

 

[causton]

Ah, the old Southern vs Gatwick Express can of worms.

IMHO, you knew exactly what you were doing... :roll:

With a reference to FCC, maybe not! I mean, it isn't exactly that straightforward to someone who doesn't already know the situation...

 

[transmanche]

I mean, it isn't exactly that straightforward to someone who doesn't already know the situation...

Someone "who doesn't already know the situation" will not be aware of the connection between Gatwick Express and Southern - and thus the situation would not arise.

Using extreme pedantry to try and justify something you know to be invalid is treading on very thin ice...

 

[Blindtraveler]

Having taken the opportunitty to bash my 1st and most likely only 442 last week on a GatX Brighton extender I was along with all other pax made well aware of what tickets were and wernt valid by extensive announcements onboard prior to departure. I think that more could howevfr be done if for example the brands were made seperate entirely by removing it from Southern route maps and maybe even putting something like Gatwick Express is opperated by GoVia on trains, signage, maps and websites etc?

 

[Hadders]

There are many threads on the can of worms that is Gatwick Express and who operates it.

I believe forum members in the past have successfully appealed such penalties/excesses in the past. I doubt very much if this is something Southern would like to see clarified in the courts.

IIRC there was also a Freedom of Information Act request to the DfT who confirmed that the Gatwick Express was operated by Southern.

 

[jkdd77]

The question of whether 'Southern only' tickets are valid on the Gatwick Express has been done to death on this forum. Having read the Govia Southern franchise agreement on the .gov website, which specifies Gatwick Express services as part of the franchise, my view is that it is valid, a view further reinforced by the wording "Gatwick Express is operated by Southern" on gatwickexpress.com.

If I am correct as to the contractual validity, then it follows that no amount of verbal announcements may alter or deny the validity of the ticket on Gatwick Express services.

IMO, the OP should never have paid the PF, or any part thereof, since there were no grounds to call the BTP, especially since he/ she had offered to give his name and address. If the BTP had been called, they would have almost certainly reprimanded the RPI for wasting their time, and in practice the RPI doubtless knew this, and basely used the threat of arrest to coerce payment of an alleged, and in fact non-existent, civil debt.

Indeed, since PFs are designed for accidental mistakes, it follows that, if the RPI truly suspected fare evasion, he should have not have offered one, let alone used a form of detention and threats of arrest to coerce payment.

It is possible that the OP's credit card company may later seek to reverse the chargeback, so the OP should be on his/ her guard.

 

[yorkie]

Ah, the old Southern vs Gatwick Express can of worms.

IMHO, you knew exactly what you were doing... :roll:

What, using a valid ticket on a Southern operated train? :roll:

Southern have previously issued both refunds and compensation, and admitted their error.

See Southern admit they were wrong to sell GX "supplement" (dvboy's thread) and Travelled using Southern All-Network Downlander and charged to use Gatwick Express (DrSatan) and I believe heart-of-wessex was also successful but I can't find his thread.

Also Southern issued Chris-O a Penalty fare for reason "GatEx", which was also successfully appealed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Someone "who doesn't already know the situation" will not be aware of the connection between Gatwick Express and Southern - and thus the situation would not arise.

The connection? That's like saying there is a "connection" between Stansted Express and Greater Anglia. It's hardly a "connection"! One is a route name, the other is a Train Operating Company. A route name in no way changes the operator.

Using extreme pedantry to try and justify something you know to be invalid is treading on very thin ice...

It is clearly valid and Southern themselves have ADMITTED this on numerous occasions, here is one such example from dvboy:

For the background please refer to the thread I recently created here which went off on a bit of a tangent:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=62554&highlight=gatwick+express

In simple terms, "Gatwick Express" gateline staff sold me a "supplement" to travel on a GX branded train with the return part of a "Southern Only" ticket.

I wrote in to Southern to complain I had since learnt that this was contradictory to the NRCOC as Southern and Gatwick Express are one and the same company. They wrote to me to say they would refund me, and wrote to me again last week to request I phone or write to them with my card details to process the refund - the amount not specified or the reasons why.

I have just got off the phone with Southern Customer Services who, after giving them the reference number and explaining briefly my complaint, told me they would refund me not only the supplement but the original return ticket also, totalling £18.70.

I asked the person I was speaking to if this meant that because they had decided refund me, Southern agreed with me that I should not have been sold the supplement ticket in the first place and he said "that is correct, yes."

I believe this is the third such example of Southern admitting they are breaking the NRCOC in relation to GX, perhaps Yorkie could confirm?

 

[transmanche]

What, using a valid ticket on a Southern operated train? :roll:

You know exactly what I mean...

It is clearly valid and Southern themselves have ADMITTED this on numerous occasions

A comment from an employee is not an official admission...

The fact is, whether we like it or not[*], Southern operate a premium-fare service branded as Gatwick Express. We all know that the intention is that Southern-only tickets are meant to be used on GatEx. We all know that the present situation only arose because the DfT wanted to merge the GatEx and SouthCentral franchises for operational reasons. No amount of wibble can change the fact that people are using pedantry to create a loophole in order to play the system. That's fine, if you've got the time and energy to exploit loopholes - go for it. But if you get challenged by the system, don't show faux outrage...

* Personally I think GatEx service is a total waste of time and space.

 

[yorkie]

....by removing it from Southern route maps...

No. It used to be a separate Company, but was integrated into Southern in late 2008. The route map is correct.

.
and maybe even putting something like Gatwick Express is opperated by GoVia on trains, signage, maps and websites etc?

No. The website and other materials which clearly state "Gatwick Express is operated by Southern" are all correct. There is no such Train Company as "Govia" in the same way that Sea Containers was never a Train Company. Govia owns the Southern Train Operating Company, which operates the Gatwick Express route. Southern do admit this, and the DfT have also confirmed this.

 

[anme]

I normally consider this to be the dullest question on this forum. However, now I see that Southern actually put the Gatwick Express on their route map, without any notes about ticket availability, suddenly I have some sympathy with the OP.

http://www.southernrailway.com/images/network_map_full.jpg

Surely a simple solution would be to put route "Not Gatwick Express" on tickets, instead of "Southern Only"? Are they not allowed to do this as Gatwick Express is not a TOC?

 

[yorkie]

You know exactly what I mean...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A comment from an employee is not an official admission...

I'm aware of dozens of people using Southern tickets on Sothern's Gatwick Express route. Less than a handful have been issued excess fares, and all were successfully appealed.

Southern admit that they operate this service on the website as well as their route map.

 

[LexyBoy]

Surely a simple solution would be to put route "Not Gatwick Express" on tickets, instead of "Southern Only"? Are they not allowed to do this as Gatwick Express is not a TOC?

There are already "Not Gatwick Express" tickets - however they are valid on Thameslink as well as Southern. If the destination were specifically London Victoria then maybe... tickets on this route are already an absolute pig's ear with myriad routeings and extra fares to named termini, no need to complicate things further!

 

[transmanche]

There are already "Not Gatwick Express" tickets - however they are valid on Thameslink as well as Southern. If the destination were specifically London Victoria then maybe... tickets on this route are already an absolute pig's ear with myriad routeings and extra fares to named termini, no need to complicate things further!

Well, in just over three weeks time, there will be no Southern Railway TOC and there will be no South Central franchise. Southern (like Gatwick Express, Thameslink and Great Northern) will become just a sub-brand of the larger TSGN franchise operator. Then people will no longer be able to use the "GatEx is a Southern (TOC) service" line to justify doing something they know is against the rules.

And as the Southern brand will no longer be 'in competition' with the Thameslink brand, there will no longer be any need for 'Southern only ' or Thameslink only' fares. I expect that we will see simple 'Not Gatwick Express' fares in due course.

 

[Hadders]

Well, in just over three weeks time, there will be no Southern Railway TOC and there will be no South Central franchise. Southern (like Gatwick Express, Thameslink and Great Northern) will become just a sub-brand of the larger TSGN franchise operator. Then people will no longer be able to use the "GatEx is a Southern (TOC) service" line to justify doing something they know is against the rules.

And as the Southern brand will no longer be 'in competition' with the Thameslink brand, there will no longer be any need for 'Southern only ' or Thameslink only' fares. I expect that we will see simple 'Not Gatwick Express' fares in due course.

And no doubt we'll see fares increase under the banner of simplification and the introduction of Oyster (which people think is cheaper but isn't always the case).

 

[yorkie]

Well, in just over three weeks time...

So not relevant to this topic.

there will be no Southern Railway TOC and there will be no South Central franchise. Southern (like Gatwick Express, Thameslink and Great Northern) will become just a sub-brand of the larger TSGN franchise operator. Then people will no longer be able to use the "GatEx is a Southern (TOC) service" line to justify doing something they know is against the rules.

The rules are quite clear; they are valid on the Southern Train Operating Companies services.

The Company being expanded doesn't change the fact it is one Company.

And as the Southern brand will no longer be 'in competition' with the Thameslink brand, there will no longer be any need for 'Southern only ' or Thameslink only' fares. I expect that we will see simple 'Not Gatwick Express' fares in due course.

I don't think the current rules allow for 'Not Gatwick Express' fares to exist ,and I believe their existence should be challenged. But this is a seperate argument not related to the OPs case.

Can I suggest we put the off-topic discussions aside and deal directly with the matter at hand.

Until the OP has any further developments to report there isn't much to discuss, other than stuff that has been debated to death before.

I'm committed to helping the OP. With all due respect, if you are not, then no-one is making you contribute to this thread...

 

[transmanche]

The rules are quite clear; they are valid on the Southern Train Operating Companies services.

That is the interpretation of some people. I consider it a pedantic interpretation of the clearly-intended situation.

The Company being expanded doesn't change the fact it is one Company.

But there will no longer be a TOC called Southern....

Can I suggest we put the off-topic discussions aside and deal directly with the matter at hand.

Absolutely. My advice to the OP is to pay the PF.

I'm committed to helping the OP. With all due respect, if you are not, then no-one is making you contribute to this thread...

So because my opinion is different to yours (and thus my advice is different) I'm not allowed to express my opinion?

 

[andykn]

That is the interpretation of some people. I consider it a pedantic interpretation of the clearly-intended situation.

But there will no longer be a TOC called Southern....


Absolutely. My advice to the OP is to pay the PF.

So because my opinion is different to yours (and thus my advice is different) I'm not allowed to express my opinion?

Surely a penalty fare cannot be applied for not following an "intention", clear or otherwise. It is the legal ("pedantic") interpretation that counts for issuing penalty fares.

Trains companies are very lucky they aren't viewed in the same way that financial institutions are, the FCA would make them refund every higher Gatwick Express fare paid.

 

[transmanche]

Surely a penalty fare cannot be applied for not following an "intention", clear or otherwise. It is the legal ("pedantic") interpretation that counts for issuing penalty fares.

I am not arguing that the status quo is a good thing.

I am merely stating that the OP knew exactly what he was doing. He was expecting to be challenged, because he knew he was gaming the system. And (IMHO) the whole GatEx/Southern ticketing shenanigans is a silly distraction. If OP wants to make a stand, there are far better issues to make a stand about; like having a proper, independent appeals service, such as those of parking etc (Parking and Traffic Appeals Service in London or the Traffic Appeal Tribunal (elsewhere in England and Wales).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think the current rules allow for 'Not Gatwick Express' fares to exist ,and I believe their existence should be challenged.

But you're happy with 'Not Gatwick Express' fares if they were actually operated by a separate TOC?

I'm sure the railway will find a workaround if required; e.g. creating a separate class of travel, so that normal standard class tickets are not valid on that train.

 

[andykn]

I am not arguing that the status quo is a good thing.

I am merely stating that the OP knew exactly what he was doing. He was expecting to be challenged, because he knew he was gaming the system. And (IMHO) the whole GatEx/Southern ticketing shenanigans is a silly distraction. If OP wants to make a stand,

Perhaps the OP just doesn't want to pay more than he needs to.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sure the railway will find a workaround if required; e.g. creating a separate class of travel, so that normal standard class tickets are not valid on that train.

I think it was concluded, after Virgin's attempt at 3 classes in the 1990s, that that wasn't permitted either, and there was nothing that said that Standard ticket holders could not sit in the "Blue Zone" Standard coaches, or indeed in "Silver Standard", provided they didn't partake of any freebies.

What they *could* do is to make the GatEx a First Class only train, then reduce the First Class fare for Gatwick-London for walk-up tickets accordingly.

Another thing I suppose they might be able to do is create a Gatwick Express Ltd which operates trains under a subcontract to Southern, perhaps?

Of course, VT's Voyagers now have a third class (a generously spaced, mostly tables 2+2 seated coach, one Voyager having two of them) but these are just used as First or Standard based on time of day, and aren't actually seen as a separate class.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Absolutely. My advice to the OP is to pay the PF.

In any ticketing dispute, it is a good idea to pay a PF if offered; it is not expensive and can be appealed. Much easier to deal with than a potential prosecution. Though it *would* be interesting to see this one taken to court, as a spectator alone!

 

[transmanche]

Perhaps the OP just doesn't want to pay more than he needs to.

:roll: Which would be the appropriate Gatwick Express fare...

 

[talltim]

:roll: Which would be the appropriate Gatwick Express fare...

Which is what he did....

 

[transmanche]

Which is what he did....

:roll: Seriously?

 

[blakey1152]

Looking at BRfares, there is only 3 off peak Travelcards available.
One that clearly states Not Gatwick Exp - at £16.90
One that says Thameslink only - at £14.20 and the ticket the OP purchased
one that says Southern only - at £16.20.

So logically looking at the Southern network map you would happily deduce that the not Gatwick Exp ticket isn't valid, the Thameslink one isn't valid leaving the one remaining ticket. Southern only and its on the map too.

If they wanted to make it invalid they should have made the ticket Southern Only not Gatwick Exp to avoid confusion.

I just wonder how many tourists would get caught out with this

Blakey

 

[Agent_c]

create a Gatwick Express Ltd which operates trains under a subcontract to Southern, perhaps?

I don't think that would work, as it would still be a service for which Southern are ultimately responsible (through their franchise).

Just seems to be a case of Southern trying it on, and getting away with it. The small cost to them in refunds and complaints is ultimately outweighed by the overcharging.

 

[transmanche]

Just seems to be a case of Southern trying it on, and getting away with it. The small cost to them in refunds and complaints is ultimately outweighed by the overcharging.

Or the counter view, that some passengers are trying it on and getting away with it on appeal...

 

[MikeWh]

Or the counter view, that some passengers are trying it on and getting away with it on appeal...

I wasn't going to wade into this discussion again, but ...

When the DfT agreed the merger of Gatwick Express and Southern someone in all the relevant legal teams made a mistake, or failed to spot the mistake in the NRCOC. It goes along the lines of a company being an entity entitled to run trains by virtue of their licence can restrict the validity of a ticket in the route field in one of two ways. Geographically is one and by company is the other. There is only one company involved so the tickets can either be for Southern only or not for Southern. ATOC have tried to muddy the waters by listing the brands of train separately in the appendix to the NRCOC, but the fact still remains that there is only one company.

Southern are well aware of this and there is no way that they will let a case go to court, because they will lose.